When to fold aces preflop?

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ph_il

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-SNG dont fold aces PF

-MTT or MTSNG, dont fold aces. Even if you're one of the shortest stacks on the bubble, get your money in with AA. Since the bottom 20+, depending on the size of the tournament, gets paid the same amount, it wouldnt matter if you bust here or a few hands from now. But this is the perfect opportunity to double/triple up your stack and move up the ranks.

-Ring: You're dumb if you fold AA PF.

There are only two occasions where I'll fold AA PF.
-Its near the bubble of a satellite and I can easily fold my way into a win. Assuming all places paid are equal (Tournament entry) then it wouldnt matter what place I take as long as I just place. Now, if it was a satellite that paid, say top 3 + tourney entry, then I'd play aces to try and move up the ranks if I win a big pot as long as me losing with AA doesnt knock me out of tournament.

-If my pokergut tells me my opponent is going hit a set. Thats insta-fold.
 
brooklyn

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i would never fold aces preflop. if you fold aces preflop what possible hand could you be waiting for to make that call?
 
nevadanick

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you have no nuts and are a little school girl if u ever fold aces preflop.

I totally agree with odinscott's replies. Have, and will again, fold those rockets preflop in the right situation. OK, so I wear a skirt, and have no nuts - BUT - I have chips and a chair. Which one's more important?

Those who will NEVER fold an AA hand preflop play NoLimitLuckem, not poker, imo.
 
nevadanick

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i would never fold aces preflop. if you fold aces preflop what possible hand could you be waiting for to make that call?

Sorry about the repeat post, but this quote wasn't there when I first replied. It's not about what hand qualifies for all-in preflop. It's about ANY hand being worthy of betting the farm in multi-way all-in pots.

All-in preflop in anything but HU is marginal at best. Play Holdem, not Luckem.

Consider - you've put up $25,000 CASH to be in a WPT event or $10,000 for the wsop ME. It's the first hand and you have those rockets. Five ahead of you are all-in (unlikely at one of these events) and it's on you in the BB. You're all-in or all-out at 6:1. Still willing to 'gamble' ??

What makes $1 any different ?? Or are there special rules/decks for $1 games and high stake MTT's ??
 
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i would never fold aces preflop. if you fold aces preflop what possible hand could you be waiting for to make that call?
It depends. In some cases, folding AA preflop would be more profitable depending on the situation and what is at stake.

BTW, assuming thats you in the avatar, has anyone ever told you you look like a mix of Kat Williams and Ludacris?
 
KenFischer

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We had a thread very similar to this a couple of months ago, I think.

I have no problem folding AA pre-flop in any of the following situations:
  • in a satellite which pays out some number of the same prize, and I have enough chips that I think I can fold my way to at least the cash, if not the main prize.
  • at any final table with an average number of chips and two people with similar stacks are already all-in. Unless they chop, one is either going to be out or cripped beyond hope, and I'll move up a payout spot.
  • playing Omaha, there is a raise and a reraise ahead of me, and I have AA with little else to build a draw with.
Otherwise, I'm probably trying to find a way to get all of it in the middle.

I agree that there is some solid argument for folding AA in a MTT against multiple opponents, but I'm not sure I would do it. I think it would depend on the actual circumstances.

I also think it's far worse to bust out right before the money than it is to do so in the first round. Yes, both are terrible, but at least you didn't waste hours (or days) with no payoff.
 
SeanyJ

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Sorry about the repeat post, but this quote wasn't there when I first replied. It's not about what hand qualifies for all-in preflop. It's about ANY hand being worthy of betting the farm in multi-way all-in pots.

All-in preflop in anything but HU is marginal at best. Play Holdem, not Luckem.

Consider - you've put up $25,000 CASH to be in a WPT event or $10,000 for the WSOP ME. It's the first hand and you have those rockets. Five ahead of you are all-in (unlikely at one of these events) and it's on you in the BB. You're all-in or all-out at 6:1. Still willing to 'gamble' ??

What makes $1 any different ?? Or are there special rules/decks for $1 games and high stake MTT's ??

I still would probably beat all of the other people into the pot, if I put down that much money to enter I wouldn't be playing scared because there is no way I'd win. You still have a better chance to win than all of the other players. Any time I can get my money in with the nuts I'm happy.
 
brooklyn

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It depends. In some cases, folding AA preflop would be more profitable depending on the situation and what is at stake.

BTW, assuming thats you in the avatar, has anyone ever told you you look like a mix of Kat Williams and Ludacris?
yes thats me in the avatar, i thought i heard it all but never a mix between kat williams and ludacris

i still think if you are playing poker and you look down at poket aces and not only has the person behind you raised, but gone all in, that has to be the position you want to be in. i cant think of any better position pre-flop
 
BrentD22

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uuummmmmm

If there are 4 or more ahead of you allin your hand is no longer favorite FOLD. I might fold if 3 ahead are allin also. Little less tha even there

I understand you logic in thinking that someone might get lucky and out draw you in a multi-way pot. Although AA vs. 4 others hands isn't a comfortable situation, but if you can rebuy it's the correct move. Your most likely still a giant pre-flop favorite somewhere around 46% chance of winning hand vs. others totaling 54%. The field collectivley might beat you, but in a rebuy tournament I sure hope you planned on rebuying if nessasary and I'd feel ok busting out and rebuying with AA loosing to some lucky hand because the benefit by X4 if I win is worth it. In the long run AA will win more often vs. 4 other random hands.
 
KenFischer

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I understand you logic in thinking that someone might get lucky and out draw you in a multi-way pot. Although AA vs. 4 others hands isn't a comfortable situation, but if you can rebuy it's the correct move. Your most likely still a giant pre-flop favorite somewhere around 46% chance of winning hand vs. others totaling 54%. The field collectivley might beat you, but in a rebuy tournament I sure hope you planned on rebuying if nessasary and I'd feel ok busting out and rebuying with AA loosing to some lucky hand because the benefit by X4 if I win is worth it. In the long run AA will win more often vs. 4 other random hands.

Oh, that's easy. With an active rebuy option there is no question - they always get played to the river if I can manage to get the chips in with them.
 
BrentD22

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EDIT: My previous thread.

I thought he was asking about a rebuy. I would personally still call because in the long run AA is going to win a high % of the time. If it's low stacks and it's a big pool of players you need to get chips quick in order to have any chance at winning. If you notice there is always some DONK that has 45,000 in chips after 10 mins. into the tournamet along with a bunch of other big stack players. If you think your going to make it through a huge player pool by playing correct poker your wrong. You HAVE to get lucky when your playing a huge field. I would rather "get lucky" with AA in the early stages than bust out with some DONK playing his inside straight draw to the river vs. my set.
 
brooklyn

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EDIT: My previous thread.

I thought he was asking about a rebuy. I would personally still call because in the long run AA is going to win a high % of the time. If it's low stacks and it's a big pool of players you need to get chips quick in order to have any chance at winning. If you notice there is always some DONK that has 45,000 in chips after 10 mins. into the tournamet along with a bunch of other big stack players. If you think your going to make it through a huge player pool by playing correct poker your wrong. You HAVE to get lucky when your playing a huge field. I would rather "get lucky" with AA in the early stages than bust out with some DONK playing his inside straight draw to the river vs. my set.
i think thats my problem with a big pool of players i always try to play correct poker and always i mean always get sucked out by some DONK playing a skip card and a draw four.
 
KidFlopadelic

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folding AA pre-flop?!? I can't even conceptualize that:D
I understand the situation u posted, but u have to remember that u r dealt AA approx. 1 in 220 hands or something like that. You may not see them again for alot longer than THAT! OK, you don't want to get donked out, fine. Fold em, but then what? wait for another big pock pair? This is poker baby! If ur getting nervous about having ur AA busted in the early stages of a trny, then it doesnt sound like u have too much gamble in you! Theres way more gamble than anything else in poker IMO. More gamble than math, odds, skill, experience, etc...

Even the best pros will tell you that you gotta hang ur balls out there once in awhile, regardless of the odds or the read, or the fear.

U get dealt AA, u gotta see a flop at the very least! whether its pf all in or a smooth call in late position. NO question

gl
 
4Aces

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Sorry about the repeat post, but this quote wasn't there when I first replied. It's not about what hand qualifies for all-in preflop. It's about ANY hand being worthy of betting the farm in multi-way all-in pots.

All-in preflop in anything but HU is marginal at best. Play Holdem, not Luckem.

Consider - you've put up $25,000 CASH to be in a WPT event or $10,000 for the WSOP ME. It's the first hand and you have those rockets. Five ahead of you are all-in (unlikely at one of these events) and it's on you in the BB. You're all-in or all-out at 6:1. Still willing to 'gamble' ??

What makes $1 any different ?? Or are there special rules/decks for $1 games and high stake MTT's ??

If you're playing in a big tournament that is above you're BR, then of course some people would fold aces preflop if there were multiple allins in front of them. I heard a story about someone in the main event on the first day who folded aces. There were 3 allins in front of him, he looked down at two red aces and folded, not wanting to risk going home so early.
So I can understand why some people would fold aces preflop. Either you're playing with scared money or you're in a satellite situation where it would be correct to fold.

But in any other situation, you looking to make the maximum +EV play.

In a $1 tournament or in a tournament that you play in regulalrly, you're not playing above you BR or with scared money. Therefore you would want to make the largest +EV decisions you can. That's how you win long term.
Going allin preflop with aces is +EV. And the more people that go allin with you, the higher a +EV play it is. It may mean higher variance, but it also means higher EV and that's all we care about.

If you are not in a satellite situation or another weird/rare situation (like at a final table where the chip stacks and payout have something to do with it), then folding aces preflop is wrong.
First hand of a $10 tournament you're in the BB. All 8 players in front of you go allin. You insta-call. Don't even think twice, just CALL. It is incorrect to fold and therefore you are losing money if you fold. Its not just my opinion, its a fact.

Please people stop asking and discussing whether or not to fold aces preflop. 99.9% of the time you go allin.
 
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robwhufc

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We had a thread very similar to this a couple of months ago, I think.
This thread crops up every 3 or 4 months, and gets virtually identical responses each time.

In my very humble opinion, I think that going all in with anything, be it AA or KK, pre-flop in the first 10-20 hands of a mtt is pretty much gambling.

Poker IS gambling. If you are unwilling to take 4/1 odds when you are 6/4 favourite to win, because you are a 4/6 favourite to lose, then you simply will not be a winning player. That is a basic fundamental of poker.
 
KenFischer

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First hand of a $10 tournament you're in the BB. All 8 players in front of you go allin. You insta-call. Don't even think twice, just CALL. It is incorrect to fold and therefore you are losing money if you fold. Its not just my opinion, its a fact.

Ok, that's a pretty extreme case, so I'll play along and list the extreme exception to the above:

In a single-table tournament, calling in the above spot would always be wrong. Folding will yield a profit nearly 100% of the time, as it's unlikely that more than two people will survive the frenzy (they would basically all need to play the board and chop).

Since it's the first hand, everyone has the same stack size, and all but one person should be going to the rail. That leaves a chip leader and you (and one other person, if it's a 10 seat STT), so you are nearly 100% guaranteed to cash at the end of this hand if you fold, as opposed to either being the chip leader or out if you call.

While I think this thread has gotten as crazy as it can, I still won't be surprised if someone makes it even more so. ;)
 
4Aces

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^ I was talking about an MTT.

Btw, does anyone know what would happen if everyone went allin first hand of a sng? Who would get 2nd and 3rd?
 
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i still think if you are playing poker and you look down at poket aces and not only has the person behind you raised, but gone all in, that has to be the position you want to be in. i cant think of any better position pre-flop
This is a wonderful position to be in and I'd take it almost 100% of the time. The only good situation where folding AA PF would be the better choice would if its near the bubble of a satellite.

Take this for example: You're playing in a $100 Sat. MTT. 1000 players and 45 all win a $10K ticket into the WSOP Main Event. Its come down to the last 47 players and you are in 44th place. You're in the BB holding AA. SS UTG shoves all in, followed by large stack UTG+1 that shoves. Its folded to a large stack in LP that calls, followed by chip leader who calls. The SS on the button calls as well. Now its on you and you have AA looking at 5 all ins, 1 which you beat (button), but 4 others who have you covered. So, what do you do?

Since the prize pool is equal for everyone, it doesnt matter if you finish in 45th or 1st because you all get equal prizes. So, to risk your tournament life in this situation here would be almost foolish since winner a big pot does nothing for your win (you dont get a bigger pay out the higher you finish). So, if you call and lose, you're out in 46th place, 1 before the payout. However, if you fold you have a slightly better chance to get that payout because the other 4 players are at risk being knocked out by the chip leader.
 
robwhufc

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^ I was talking about an MTT.

Btw, does anyone know what would happen if everyone went allin first hand of a sng? Who would get 2nd and 3rd?

If 9 players, all 8 losers would get 1/8th of the 2nd + 3rd place prize. There's no countback to 2nd or 3rd best hand, you either win or you lose.
 
brooklyn

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This is a wonderful position to be in and I'd take it almost 100% of the time. The only good situation where folding AA PF would be the better choice would if its near the bubble of a satellite.

Take this for example: You're playing in a $100 Sat. MTT. 1000 players and 45 all win a $10K ticket into the WSOP Main Event. Its come down to the last 47 players and you are in 44th place. You're in the BB holding AA. SS UTG shoves all in, followed by large stack UTG+1 that shoves. Its folded to a large stack in LP that calls, followed by chip leader who calls. The SS on the button calls as well. Now its on you and you have AA looking at 5 all ins, 1 which you beat (button), but 4 others who have you covered. So, what do you do?

Since the prize pool is equal for everyone, it doesnt matter if you finish in 45th or 1st because you all get equal prizes. So, to risk your tournament life in this situation here would be almost foolish since winner a big pot does nothing for your win (you dont get a bigger pay out the higher you finish). So, if you call and lose, you're out in 46th place, 1 before the payout. However, if you fold you have a slightly better chance to get that payout because the other 4 players are at risk being knocked out by the chip leader.
thats the only position where i would even think about folding aa preflop
 
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thats the only position where i would even think about folding aa preflop
Yep. Like I said, its situational and almost all of the time, folding AA preflop would be the wrong choice, but there are some instances (like situation above) where folding is more profitable. I dont think there is such thing as 'never' in poker, its more of 'it depends'.
 
F Paulsson

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Everything in this post is referring to non-satellite situations.

If you fold because it's a big tournament and you just don't want to get knocked out, I suggest you save your buy-in and not enter the tournament.

Also, for those of you saying it's better to play solid poker postflop instead of taking big risks preflop, I have this to tell you: You're not that good. How do I know that? Because no one is that good. Doyle/Gus/Phil Ivey/Whatever-Pro-Makes-You-Drool wouldn't ever fold in those situations, and I guarantee you they're better tournament players than you are.

Preflop, aces are the nuts. Don't fold the nuts. You're not good enough to.
 
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