Challenging a PokerSite Decision

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CallMeBaby

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Has anyone challenged an unfair decision by a pokersite? Inquiring minds want to know. They seem to have all the power. Is there any recourse for the individual to appeal an unfair decision?
 
Irexes

Irexes

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The usual approach is for people to post unsubstantiated, illogical and self-serving accounts that leave out the part of the story that incriminates them on a number of forums like this one.

The other option is to find out who regulates them or what code of conducts they subscribe to and contact that body.
 
Irexes

Irexes

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Here's party poker's info

9.3 Is there a regulatory or governing body you are registered with? We are licensed and regulated by the Government of Gibraltar, and our games are tested by iTech Labs, an independent tester of gaming and wagering devices, to ensure that the games are fair and operate correctly.
 
dj11

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Can't hardly imagine what an unfair decision could decide online. Correction, I can imagine a decision. Colusion. Hand play would seem to be untouchable. Colusion seems to be something that could cause an issue. As well as indentity theft, or using stolen credit cards.
 
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CallMeBaby

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very wise insight

The usual approach is for people to post unsubstantiated, illogical and self-serving accounts that leave out the part of the story that incriminates them on a number of forums like this one.


But what IF....what IF....you are one of the very few who truly didn't do anything wrong and yet they decided to keep your money.... or are you saying the pokersites never make mistakes?

Contacting their operating body is a great suggestion. Where would one find this information? - poker sites seem to cloak themselves in mystery. Ever try finding out their street address so you can serve them with a small claims suit?
 
Irexes

Irexes

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Which site is the obvious question? Someone here will find a contact I'm sure.

All companies make mistakes and there's at least fifteen sides to every story. Whether what is morally correct is the same as what is legally ok is also another matter.
 
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CallMeBaby

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ok you asked for it

what kind of unfair decision?

Well here is the scoop... and "NO" Irexes, I didn't leave out anything that might incriminate me.... I swear. You can test it out for yourself.

As a student I don't have a lot of spare cash, so playing freerolls and vying for bonuses is important for me. Often I just break even and the bonus is what gives me the edge. When I look for a site I look for the best bonus structure.

I was directed to UB by my rakeback provider and given a 100% first time deposit bonus and entry to their freerolls for playing 1500 raked hands. Because I can only afford to play low stakes I have to play a LOT to make 1500 raked hands.

The UB reward structure is such that you get .1 UB point for a 10 cents pot. And UB points turn into cash at the ratio of 10/1 if you have Bonus Dollars. You get Bonus dollars from reload bonuses and from their Bonus dollar freerolls. If you play lots they have another bonus option "turn your UB points to cash" for those who achieve 750 or more points. For 750 they give you .03 a point for 1000 they give you .05 a point and for 2000+ they give you .075 a point.

Because I am between semesters and hurt myself skiing I can play a lot. And for March I was able to achieve 2000 points for two weeks running. All I have done is take advantage of their bonuses which anyone can do.

Their software is preferrential to low stake players.... meaning that you can leave a table with more money than you started with even if you fold every hand at .01 to .02 stakes tables.

Well I played my heart out for March, and I even used my rent money ($750) to take advantage of their reload bonus to get more bonus dollars. I know it's foolish to gamble with your rent money but because I play low stakes I was not in danger of losing it. Please note that they solicted me for the bonuses by email. Then because I reaped a fair profit I get an email saying that I am a bonus abuser and they closed my account and they kept all my money. I wish I had paid by credit card so that I could claim a charge back but I used neteller. Most of the money they kept was my original deposit.

You can check out my details. Just don't go after the 2000 point bonus at low stakes unless you want your account closed as well.

What do you say to that Irexe?
 
Irexes

Irexes

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Post the email they sent and I'll tell you :)

Particularly the bit referring to bonus abusing. Then we can review the Terms and Conditions of the site and the bonus scheme to establish where the alledged "abuse" took place.

Obviously remove any personal info.
 
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CallMeBaby

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here is the email

Post the email they sent and I'll tell you :) Particularly the bit referring to bonus abusing. Then we can review the Terms and Conditions of the site and the bonus scheme to establish where the alledged "abuse" took place. Obviously remove any personal info.
I didnt remove any personal information and just so you know I am not making this up I would forward it to you if you want. Sent : Friday, March 30, 2007 2:39 AMTo :Subject : RE:Cashier Support Form Submission #5176913Dear Play Atnight ,Thank you for contacting us again.I do apologize for the inconvenience this causes you. Unfortunately, theinvestigating department concluded that your account was a bonus abuser and thusclosed it.I regret that we cannot open it.Please do not hesitate to contact us back if you require further assistance oradditional information.Best regards,DebbieCustomer Support***Ensure the security of your account! Never give out your password and changeit frequently!***
 
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hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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Well I played my heart out for March, and I even used my rent money ($750) to take advantage of their reload bonus to get more bonus dollars.

Well, I don't know much about all that other stuff you're asking, but, never do this again. Playing with rent money is never smart no matter the odds of getting paid back. Always, have a separate BR for poker from your living expenses.
 
Irexes

Irexes

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Could this be what they are doing? A definition of "significant amount of play" would nice, that's really unhelpful as written.

http://www.ultimatebet.com/help/search_results.html?function=topic&topicid=0000000012
http://www.ultimatebet.com/help/search_results.html?function=topic&topicid=0000000012

Their T&C are here, read these thoroughly and to see if they are basing their position on anything within. I'm not saying that you should agree with them but you need to understand their position so you can disagree with it based on the facts.

Rules of Poker Games and Texas Hold'em at UltimateBet.com
 
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CallMeBaby

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yep

Thanks

I presume there was one before that?


Here is my original message


--Original Message--
From: playfulatnight@hotmail.com
Date: 03/30/07
To: cashier@ultimatebet.com
Subject: RE:Cashier Support Form Submission [#5176913]


I understand that sites need to do investigation to keep their operations honest. What I want you to consider, while you have me barred from playing is that I have never done anything wrong. Also one of my favourite activities at UB is the monthly RaketheRake freeroll. I play many many many hands to qualify each month. I know I am close to achieving the 1500 raked hands for this month but since you have my account closed all the days and days and days that I played so hard to qualify for this event might be for nothing. I know you are a business but put yourself in the place of the consumer for a minute .... I played and played and played ... only to have you decide to close my account for scrutiney just before my reaching 1500 raked hands.
So far I have called your site three times. Twice I was on hold for up to half an hour. Your customer service people were very polite. One told me he would phone me right back - yet never did. Another said he would attend to the problem immediately and send me an email within the hour - and yet he never did. Here I sit in silence thinking about all the hands I played for RTR 1500 tournament for nothing. I ask you - do you think that is fair to me - I, who have never done anything wrong?
 
Irexes

Irexes

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Have you any other emails from them at all?

(btw I'm not trying to prove you or them right, I'm genuinely interested)
 
Irexes

Irexes

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I've had a good read of the Ultimate Bet Terms and Conditions and Policies etc and to be honest they are a lot less transparent than many others.

All the wording is very vague and open to interpretation (if necessary in favour of the site).

I can't find anything specific but I get the impression that this is the area that is the cause of the problem,

Their software is preferrential to low stake players.... meaning that you can leave a table with more money than you started with even if you fold every hand at .01 to .02 stakes tables.

I'm not suggesting you did anything on purpose, however no site is going to tolerate the exploitation of a risk-free loophole to their detriment.

Yes they should be clearer about things, however it is also the responsibility of the user to read the terms and conditions when we sign up to sites and not just tick the little box and move on.

I'm sorry for you that this may be a costly lesson. Keep badgering customer support and ask for details of the breech of the T&Cs that you made so you can understand their position is my advice.

Rex
 
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CallMeBaby

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well I read the rules and ...

Not sure if their rules are up to date.... because if they are then I broke this one:
• Players are permitted to play up to 3 games at once. However, if it is determined that playing multiple games cause a player to act too slowly on a consistent basis, management reserves the right to further limit the number of games that player is allowed to play in at once.

I played more tables than that but the software allows you to do that. Someone said that they used to only allow three tables but that that was changed. And many many people play more than three tables.

You know I really can't let them get away with this. I want my money back - even if they decide to withhold the bonus money - I would be kewl with that. But to keep my money is robbery.
 
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CallMeBaby

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I'm not suggesting you did anything on purpose, however no site is going to tolerate the exploitation of a risk-free loophole to their detriment.

Rex

I didn't sit at multi tables and fold all my hands to exploit the system. I generally play low stakes PERIOD. Just because who ever wrote the program didn't adjust the reward system correctly for this niche is NOT my problem... it's theirs.

Now I would understand if I got an email that said. Hey you are qualifying for too many bonuses so we now restrict you to only play "x" number of tables or "x" number of hours. Or even if they said..."Hey that 2000 UB point bonus was not intended for low stakes players so bud out and we not gonna honor that bonus". I could understand that. But to keep all my deposit money is just criminal.

P.S. I have never withdrawn my deposit befor playing 1000 hands. So no I was not abusing their deposit bonus reward. Their reward system just needs review but I shouldn't be penalized for it. That's all I am saying.
Elle
 
Irexes

Irexes

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Once again, I'm not saying they are right or have any moral justification for keeping your cash and do not wish to imply fault on your part.

Your only hope of getting back lies with understanding why they have done what they have done and point by point demonstrating where they are incorrect.

I wish you luck.
 
mbutler007

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That crazy. Why advertise the bonuses if they wont let you claim them? I had a problem with Ultimate Bet a few months ago, and their customer service was very inconsistent. I signed up because they were advertising free tournament dollars with deposit. After depositing, I noticed there were no tournament dollars listed on my account. After 3 e-mails to customer service, I finally got a response saying that I didnt choose that option when I deposited. Considering I never saw the option and that was the only reason I was depositing, I was upset. I was told nothing could be done. But because I had sent a few e-mails, another of their reps sent me an e-mail a few days later saying the change was made and I was creditted. Pretty weird when the first person told me nothing could be done.
Ultimate Bet is shady. Keep fighting, I hope you get your money back.
 
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CallMeBaby

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I dont think UB is shady

Ultimate Bet is shady. Keep fighting, I hope you get your money back.

Well thanks for the encouragement, butler. I don't think UB is shady though. I just think that I inadvertently stumbled upon a weakness in their program and they are holding the wrong person accountable for this weakness.

As for their customer support - well I think most of them get paid per email that they answer (or at least a bonus for answering a certain number) so it's far easier to say sorry those are the rules than really try to help you. Nothing against a minimum wage earner... but if your boss pays you minimum wage he shouldn't be expecting anything above the call of duty.
 
mbutler007

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Is it possible they think you're using a bot? Are you playing so many hours that they're disputing you're playing them all? This just seems so weird, I cant imagine a site charging someone with bonus abuse.
 
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CallMeBaby

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You know what would be really great...

You know what would be great .... If you do think I was wronged by stumbling upon a weakness in UB's point system and got penalized unfailry for it - that you took the time to email their support and ask if this fact is true.
Ask them this:

"that if you sit at .01/.02 tables the UB points earned outweigh the blinds and that if you play 2000 hands you get $150.00 bonus" . Then ask them if you take advantage of this if they will call you a bonus abuser. Tell them you read it in Poker Forums and want to know the truth. This would really be helpful to me. If they get enough emails they might take my complaint seriously.

Then post their reply here.
Their email is support@ultimatebet.com
send a copy of the email to the gaming commission that Ksorbust posted. The commission's email is kgc@mck.ca

P.S. Rats I shoulda put the word "sex" in the thread line and 400 people woulda read it by now, lol.
 
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CallMeBaby

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correction

You know what would be great .... If you do think I was wronged by stumbling upon a weakness in UB's point system and got penalized unfailry for it - that you took the time to email their support and ask if this fact is true.
Ask them this:

"that if you sit at .01/.02 tables the UB points earned outweigh the blinds and that if you earn 2000 UB points you get $150.00 bonus" . Then ask them if you take advantage of this if they will call you a bonus abuser. Tell them you read it in Poker Forums and want to know the truth. This would really be helpful to me. If they get enough emails they might take my complaint seriously.

Then post their reply here.
Their email is support@ultimatebet.com
send a copy of the email to the gaming commission that Ksorbust posted. The commission's email is kgc@mck.ca

P.S. Rats I shoulda put the word "sex" in the thread line and 400 people woulda read it by now, lol.

sorry for the mistake
 
JimboJim

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What you need to do is have them send you an email with a detailed explanation of why they blocked your account. Then contact the Kahnawake Gaming Commision.

It does sound like you were taking advantage of a loophole in the the terms which they clearly state will forfeit your bonus. To take you initial deposit though is wrong unless you were downright cheating. Good luck with it and try to stick with playing poker instead of using bonuses as income :D
 
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