After all, who believes that most poker sites are rigged?

S3mper

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I think random as possible because it is a computer generating the numbers this is likely more random than a live deck in its randomness.
Sites don't soley rely on pseudo-randomness that an algorithm produces but also use truly random sources like atmospheric noise, mouse movements etc.. In the case of pokerstars:

 
puzzlefish

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Sites don't soley rely on pseudo-randomness that an algorithm produces but also use truly random sources like atmospheric noise, mouse movements etc.. In the case of PokerStars:

Is there some way to verify whether these other hardware sources of randomness are connected or disconnected at any given moment?
 
S3mper

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Is there some way to verify whether these other hardware sources of randomness are connected or disconnected at any given moment?
They have audits, also who is doing the disconnecting? Where are the whistle blowers has Stars or any other site never had disgruntled employees?

Besides if sites are rigging their deals so certain players would win (or lose) why would they make changes that chase away the largest grinders on their sites by doing things like raising the rake or in some cases outright banning winning players? You would never chase away these players if you could simply make them lose more often via the deal.
 
puzzlefish

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They have audits, also who is doing the disconnecting? Where are the whistle blowers has Stars or any other site never had disgruntled employees?

Besides if sites are rigging their deals so certain players would win (or lose) why would they make changes that chase away the largest grinders on their sites by doing things like raising the rake or in some cases outright banning winning players? You would never chase away these players if you could simply make them lose more often via the deal.
I'm just curious as to how anyone on the client side can know what's going on at the server end of it. Rigging theories aside.
 
S3mper

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I'm just curious as to how anyone on the client side can know what's going on at the server end of it. Rigging theories aside.
How servers are created, audited, maintained, who all has access to the servers all these types of questions I would have to differ to someone else because I have no idea.

That said if the deals were being rigged at a rate where you are noticing patterns (or anyone else) via just observing and not combing through data, I don't see how these patterns wouldn't be seen over (B)illions of hands by either data miners or auditors. It's more likely that these patterns you and others are observing are the same patterns people see when they look at the big board as they walk up to a roulette wheel.

The risk alone makes the claim of rigging any of these large sites an extraordinary claim IMO. If a site is found to be rigging the deal in any way they are out of business. To even entertain an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence and as always with these conversations no evidence whatsoever is given.

The real concern to online poker is RTA, bots, collusion. etc.. How the cards are being distributed shouldn't even be at the back of one's mind.
 
Marshmalo1994

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I'm sorry I didn't read the 7 pages.
I just came to say one thing:
Is suspicious how ACR like that bad beat animation so much 😅

Honestly, I wonder, if it's rigged, who is being favored? For example, in mtts, if I lose, other player is getting the chips, so, there's no advantage for the site.
 
Poker Orifice

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They have audits, also who is doing the disconnecting? Where are the whistle blowers has Stars or any other site never had disgruntled employees?
Be careful or I'm sure we'll soon see someone like BSpuff'nFluff let us know about their prior employment at Stars. Actually I've seen some posts with riggies claiming this already.
 
puzzlefish

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That said if the deals were being rigged at a rate where you are noticing patterns (or anyone else) via just observing and not combing through data, I don't see how these patterns wouldn't be seen over (B)illions of hands by either data miners or auditors. It's more likely that these patterns you and others are observing are the same patterns people see when they look at the big board as they walk up to a Roulette wheel.
Honestly I just don't think auditors consider what I have considered. If you contact the companies that do the RNG certification for the sites, they tell you what they test. They don't test how "leaky" an RNG is based on past hands. It just isn't done.

Would a data miner consider that aspect of an RNG? Why? It sounds like a very absurd property for an RNG to have so why even test for it? I do not know if I am the first to test it. Let's say that I doubt it. But I keep testing it and certain patterns based on this property (of past hand results predicting future hand results on particular seats) just seem to hold, unlike that roulette wheel.

So when I see a very weird play - like T4o jamming on a monotone flop against a set (can be mine, can be someone else's) - that is successful, I just look through the hand history and see if one of my patterns could be responsible. Usually it is, and I only have 3-4 very specific ones that have a good track record, usually from either the point of exactly three hands ago or a full orbit around the table ago. If these aren't really there, then why do they keep happening at these two specific set points? Why not 5 hands ago or 7 hands ago or 1 hand ago?

Anyway, I digress, it's all funny and until I can actually consistently apply anything to win a significant prize, we can all have a good laugh at this stuff and shake our heads at these bad players making ridiculous choices and just getting there. 🤗
 
acidburnfx

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How servers are created, audited, maintained, who all has access to the servers all these types of questions I would have to differ to someone else because I have no idea.

That said if the deals were being rigged at a rate where you are noticing patterns (or anyone else) via just observing and not combing through data, I don't see how these patterns wouldn't be seen over (B)illions of hands by either data miners or auditors. It's more likely that these patterns you and others are observing are the same patterns people see when they look at the big board as they walk up to a Roulette wheel.

The risk alone makes the claim of rigging any of these large sites an extraordinary claim IMO. If a site is found to be rigging the deal in any way they are out of business. To even entertain an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence and as always with these conversations no evidence whatsoever is given.

The real concern to online poker is RTA, bots, collusion. etc.. How the cards are being distributed shouldn't even be at the back of one's mind.
Even with an audit, you could run different models throughout the day to avoid people noticing these patterns. I've seen someone from within a large technology company openly saying that the company made changes to algorithms on average six times a day and that was a few years ago. Nowadays it must be much more improved.
 
S3mper

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Anyway, I digress, it's all funny and until I can actually consistently apply anything to win a significant prize, we can all have a good laugh at this stuff and shake our heads at these bad players making ridiculous choices and just getting there. 🤗
Just play cash games. Your hypothesis can be proven or disproven quite quickly. Less than a week.

If you're right then you should be absolutely printing money.

If you know which seats are going to win based off of previous play you can basically open jam every single time you know it's your turn to win and destroy the games.
 
S3mper

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Even with an audit, you could run different models throughout the day to avoid people noticing these patterns. I've seen someone from within a large technology company openly saying that the company made changes to algorithms on average six times a day and that was a few years ago. Nowadays it must be much more improved.
Yes, these unnoticeable patterns that are noticed in real time.

You can change the algorithm's all you want the question is does it produce a random event. I don't really understand the idea that producing more patterns will make it harder to find patterns.
 
puzzlefish

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If you know which seats are going to win based off of previous play you can basically open jam every single time you know it's your turn to win and destroy the games
That's if these situations arise often enough and if they generate enough action. Unfortunately what I end up seeing a lot is that the whole table folds and I get a walk for 1.5 BB. There has to be a player that comes along with a strong hand in exactly the right moment. It happens more frequently in MTTs.
I don't really understand the idea that producing more patterns will make it harder to find patterns
Basically if the algorithms switch up within a game and you have players that overplay into an algorithm that has been deactivated at that moment. They lose their buy-in if they are aggressive enough. If the patterns switch up, it looks more random since no particular pattern holds up longer than a certain number of hands, for example (not saying that this is the case on any particular site).
 
Q

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I believe the poker sites keep to a competition level. If a hand's result comes out mathematically wrong which is impossible it just means the odds lost . Something like that should remind players a poker hand has its own course. All hands are winners it's how you play the table. As far as the cards being dealt at random yes I believe they are all using the same or similar system to deal the cards. After playing hrs days at various sites the pattern is repetitive to each individual. You notice this if you play for an hr or 2 then leave and come back later in the day . Seems like you have played these cards before and the outcome of the hand is just as before unless you fold . I don't believe the games themselves are rigged for any predetermined seat or player to win . But I think the site does enter bots to play at any table to keep the competition level .
 
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Yes, these unnoticeable patterns that are noticed in real time.

You can change the algorithm's all you want the question is does it produce a random event. I don't really understand the idea that producing more patterns will make it harder to find patterns.
It's not a infinite set of patterns there are 52 cards and giving 3000 different combinations for the cards to fall. Not sure of the math it could be more.
 
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Programmers I want to hear you the most.
Of course the official terms alegate that there is no manipulation of the cards dealt in online poker room tables. It actually says that (and this is only for the big poker sites) the dealing cards system is "as random as possible". Wait, is it totally random or not?
Folks, legal or not, I do believe our real experience more than "legal terms and conditions" drawn by the company lawyers. We are talking about multi milionare companies that has every resource available to circumvent the borders of legal burocarcy. Even though there is regulation, it doesn't mean they have no way of rigging and profiting by it in their softwares.
"They would loose all their players if it was rigged". No, because the players are dumb and the company too smart. "There are small poker sites that we have to worry about, but big ones like GG or PS would never do that". Really? Does that make any sense at all? Small companies get caught because they don't have the legal resources to back them up. As more money a company possess, more we have to worry, cause basically they can do whatever they want. You can say whatever you want, call me conspiratory, but in a capitalist system, this is a reality.
What grounds can we have to at least justify this allegations, if they say is not rigged? Math. Well, we are students of chance, probability, and I'm telling ya, with frequency I've seen with my own eyes some turnouts that math would disagree with.
But the insteresting thing would be to hear some software engineers, programmers, people that actually know how it is to manipulate, to PROGRAM this kind of system. Oh, the big letters are to make sure we're talking about something that can be pre-set, previously defined, architected, programmed. We are talking about something that is more than possible to be rigged within legal boundaries.
Tell us your opinion.
TY
not everything that is not normal to us is wrong etc
 
jonaselloco

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Programmers I want to hear you the most.
Of course the official terms alegate that there is no manipulation of the cards dealt in online poker room tables. It actually says that (and this is only for the big poker sites) the dealing cards system is "as random as possible". Wait, is it totally random or not?
Folks, legal or not, I do believe our real experience more than "legal terms and conditions" drawn by the company lawyers. We are talking about multi milionare companies that has every resource available to circumvent the borders of legal burocarcy. Even though there is regulation, it doesn't mean they have no way of rigging and profiting by it in their softwares.
"They would loose all their players if it was rigged". No, because the players are dumb and the company too smart. "There are small poker sites that we have to worry about, but big ones like GG or PS would never do that". Really? Does that make any sense at all? Small companies get caught because they don't have the legal resources to back them up. As more money a company possess, more we have to worry, cause basically they can do whatever they want. You can say whatever you want, call me conspiratory, but in a capitalist system, this is a reality.
What grounds can we have to at least justify this allegations, if they say is not rigged? Math. Well, we are students of chance, probability, and I'm telling ya, with frequency I've seen with my own eyes some turnouts that math would disagree with.
But the insteresting thing would be to hear some software engineers, programmers, people that actually know how it is to manipulate, to PROGRAM this kind of system. Oh, the big letters are to make sure we're talking about something that can be pre-set, previously defined, architected, programmed. We are talking about something that is more than possible to be rigged within legal boundaries.
Tell us your opinion.
TY
You're right.
In general, everyone including me has thought that the site is rigged.
This usually happens when downswings or bad decisions in the game start to work in your head.
I lose 10 boxes in a day and the answers are these.
1) The site is rigged
2) always on the river he gives the card to my opponent
3) Since he is the nationality of the site he always throws the cards at them
And many more stupid things that we say when we do not become regular players and begin to understand that it is a game, in which the majority of hands are lost more due to our mistakes than due to the cards that fall in a showdown.
What's more, if the cards fall badly even though you have not made mistakes in the 10 boxes that you lost, you must understand that in the game you can also lose, but in the long run if you are a disciplined and regular player, the achievements and benefits will always be They will come in your favor.
To understand this is simple. Statistics say that with AA you will win 81% of the time. In other words, out of 10 times you have them, 8 you will win and 2 you will lose. If it happens to you in a week that you lost 20 boxes with AA, rest assured that in the next 2 weeks you will win 80 times with AA.
It happens that the problem in general is in the habits we take. It's simple, tilt is very difficult to get out and blame the software. That is why the players who win or win are those for whom tilt does not cause any problem.
In GG poker is where you most notice the problems that players have with tilt. For example, I lose a hand there and leave the throwables there next to me without touching. What's more, if I meet the player again I tell him "good hand" or if he is a well-known regular who we are having fun with I say "I'll send you a beer hahaha and I'll throw him the beer mug" then some of them even laugh and thank me. On the other hand, when they send you the egg throw or the punches that break the glass, that's where you realize that the player is very angry about losing.
Imagine what our lives would be like if in more than 4000 hands a day what game would I bet on 2500??? I would be committed to a mental hospital and I would insult all the software in all the places. And it shouldn't be like that, you just have to understand that it is a game.
Greetings
 
S3mper

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This video immediately made me think of this thread. lol

 
luckyfish98

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You're right.
In general, everyone including me has thought that the site is rigged.
This usually happens when downswings or bad decisions in the game start to work in your head.
I lose 10 boxes in a day and the answers are these.
1) The site is rigged
2) always on the river he gives the card to my opponent
3) Since he is the nationality of the site he always throws the cards at them
And many more stupid things that we say when we do not become regular players and begin to understand that it is a game, in which the majority of hands are lost more due to our mistakes than due to the cards that fall in a showdown.
What's more, if the cards fall badly even though you have not made mistakes in the 10 boxes that you lost, you must understand that in the game you can also lose, but in the long run if you are a disciplined and regular player, the achievements and benefits will always be They will come in your favor.
To understand this is simple. Statistics say that with AA you will win 81% of the time. In other words, out of 10 times you have them, 8 you will win and 2 you will lose. If it happens to you in a week that you lost 20 boxes with AA, rest assured that in the next 2 weeks you will win 80 times with AA.
It happens that the problem in general is in the habits we take. It's simple, tilt is very difficult to get out and blame the software. That is why the players who win or win are those for whom tilt does not cause any problem.
In GG poker is where you most notice the problems that players have with tilt. For example, I lose a hand there and leave the throwables there next to me without touching. What's more, if I meet the player again I tell him "good hand" or if he is a well-known regular who we are having fun with I say "I'll send you a beer hahaha and I'll throw him the beer mug" then some of them even laugh and thank me. On the other hand, when they send you the egg throw or the punches that break the glass, that's where you realize that the player is very angry about losing.
Imagine what our lives would be like if in more than 4000 hands a day what game would I bet on 2500??? I would be committed to a mental hospital and I would insult all the software in all the places. And it shouldn't be like that, you just have to understand that it is a game.
Greetings


the players themselves are to blame because they don't know how to play poker and always look for blame elsewhere - look at poker games % how big the possibilities are AND STOP ALWAYS LOOKING FOR EXCUSES!
but I like your thoughts!
 
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luckyfish98

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Sites don't soley rely on pseudo-randomness that an algorithm produces but also use truly random sources like atmospheric noise, mouse movements etc.. In the case of PokerStars:

but the question still remains unanswered ok the cards are dealt fairly but what about the possibility that someone can see the cards of all the players during the game (this happened in GG poker)
 
F

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but what about the possibility that someone can see the cards of all the players during the game (this happened in GG poker)
Actually this is not quite, what happened at GG Poker. What happened was, that the software calculate the equity of each player still involved in a hand with the purpose of being able to show this to players, when there is an all-in before the river. Like if someone get it in preflop with AK vs. TT, then the software will show the equities, as they change on each street.

Many sites have this feature, and its basically done to create more excitement. And also to be able to offer "all-in insurance" in cash games. However someone on GG Poker had found a way to hack into the software and see the equity numbers, even when they were not all-in. Which is not quite as usefull as knowing the opponents exact cards, but still a big enough advantage to enable a massive winrate :)
 
aquilex2799

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In my opinion, poker rooms already make a lot of money without having to cheat. I don't see any point in risking reliability to gain a little more.
 
luckyfish98

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Actually this is not quite, what happened at GG Poker. What happened was, that the software calculate the equity of each player still involved in a hand with the purpose of being able to show this to players, when there is an all-in before the river. Like if someone get it in preflop with AK vs. TT, then the software will show the equities, as they change on each street.

Many sites have this feature, and its basically done to create more excitement. And also to be able to offer "all-in insurance" in cash games. However someone on GG Poker had found a way to hack into the software and see the equity numbers, even when they were not all-in. Which is not quite as usefull as knowing the opponents exact cards, but still a big enough advantage to enable a massive winrate :)
no matter what happened, it's not pleasant

but I don't understand why GG still kept it popular after those scandals, why didn't it go bankrupt
probably many players don't know it at all
 
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fundiver199

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no matter what happened, it's not pleasant
For sure not. And it was quite a disappointment, that the industry leader had such poor security.
but I don't understand why GG still kept it popular after those scandals, why didn't it go bankrupt
I think, they did themselfes a service by being fairly open about it. And most people have probably concluded, that the problem was fixed and will not happen again. Moreover the cheating was not done by people working for GG Poker unlike in the Ultimate Bet / Absolute Poker scandal.
probably many players don't know it at all
Many casual players likely dont. But for sure most high stakes players and all the pros have heard about it.
 
andron205

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regulators check this, the most popular ones are honest, you can be sure of this
 
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