Phil Ivey wins $11 Million - Casino refuses to pay

[Keith_MM]

I think this is just so unjust, he won the money fair and square. So what if he has an awesome photographic memory :adore:

thats the whole point though , he didn't win it "fair and square" he got the dealer to manipulate the deck so that he "knew" when he had favourable cards. The cards were no longer random and gave him a huge advantage over the casino. There was no memory feat involved. he may as well have been playing with the cards in the deck face up.

It was up to the casino to adjust to somebody like phil, for example changing the deck every 30 minutes or so blah blah blah.But saying this is this day and age you see it so much online with all areas of gambling, horse racing bookmakers are banning punter that win regularly.

they are a business and are within their right to refuse to deal with anybody.Banning winners is no different than a pub refusing entry to people who became violent and damaged their property etc. they are a net cost rather than a source of profit.

So what is the gambling industry turning in to? as with phil managing to find fault with the edge or marks on the card, it is his advantage simple.

if he spotted the flaw with the cards and didn't manipulate the cards then there is no case, its at the point where he got the dealer to rotate the favourable cards that he then stacked the deck and the game became unfair.

I bet the casino do give the money back to a person that has had their money stolen :creep: or the father that used his bill money etc. seems they like to take but don't like to give

if he used bill money in a casino then hes an idiot in the first place.The casino's run on a premise that they have a house edge, everyone knows that and people gamble accepting that edge. SAying that casino's should know about the edge sorting is a poor argument as Ivey has admitted doing it all around the world. its only now that he has been caught doing it that everyone now knows about it.
Crockfords may only have found out about it by reveiwing the security footage afterwards. The "wiring the money" may have been to give themselves time to review the tapes . he played for two days , over that time the casino would have expected to have made money, not to have been losing consistently and they may have let him continue playing so that they could figure out how he was managing to defeat the house edge.Ivey was guilty of one najor thing that led to him being caught, he got too greedy, he played too long and he won too much which gave the casino the incentive and the sample size to figure out how he was doing it.

 

[Keith_MM]

actually flip this round and change the game.

lets take blackjack and house has pre edge sorted the decks so all A,2,3,4,5,6 are turned one way. do you think the game is now fair when the house can now have much better odds of taking another card without busting knowing that the top card of the deck is 6 or lower . Is the house cheating? I think most people would agree that they are , so why should Ivey doing it be any different.

 

[or3o1990]

I know where you're coming from, but I think there's a couple of things wrong with that. First, it's kind of like saying that you shouldn't have the right to sit out or leave a poker table when a known shark joins the game.

Second, if they didn't have the right to ban advantage players then before long there simply wouldn't be any more casinos - DUCY?

While I do see why this could be potentially threatening to casino's I still do not agree. I think a better analogy would be that walking into a casino is like sitting at a table with 8 sharks.. If you already knew you were at a disadvantage and that there was no possible way you could EVER win in the long run, would you play poker? I personally don't play any table games other than blackjack because it can be beaten. While I'm no math whiz I do understand the concept of card counting. I can't keep it spot on but I do have more than an idea of what's going on when I'm playing and I do ok for the most part(quite small sample size granted). I don't think that letting counters and edge sorters slide would put casinos out of business. Even including the whales like Ivey. What's 12 million to crockfords really? Probably what the owners wife blows shopping every year.. Also, casino's make enough money to invest some of it along with some energy and thought to make their games unbeatable if that's what they want. It's just my opinion but you can't fault the player for trying to win. But then again you can't fault the house for trying to win either, even if it is a low blow victory like this one.. We're all greedy bastards really..

 

[Dlew123]

Its still not on youtube yet been serching for the full episode but can not manage to find one at all

 

[or3o1990]

actually flip this round and change the game.

lets take blackjack and house has pre edge sorted the decks so all A,2,3,4,5,6 are turned one way. do you think the game is now fair when the house can now have much better odds of taking another card without busting knowing that the top card of the deck is 6 or lower . Is the house cheating? I think most people would agree that they are , so why should Ivey doing it be any different.

If they wanted to take the time and money to train their dealers to be able gain more of an edge so be it.. But they don't have to do that because the odds are already unfair. Isn't that already cheating? Yes but they can get away with it because they make so much money doing it.

 

[Keith_MM]

If they wanted to take the time and money to train their dealers to be able gain more of an edge so be it.. But they don't have to do that because the odds are already unfair. Isn't that already cheating? Yes but they can get away with it because they make so much money doing it.

the point is they couldn't because as soon as they were found out they would probably lose their licence and probably be liable for prosecution.

 

[or3o1990]

the point is they couldn't because as soon as they were found out they would probably lose their licence and probably be liable for prosecution.

Maybe, they already have variations of blackjack where a blackjack doesn't pay 3-2. Some people would consider this unfair. Kind of like it's unfair to cater to someone like Ivey to such an extent knowing that if he lost they were keeping his money and that if he won they weren't paying him. Casino's are crooks and shouldn't have licensees and should be prosecuted. With that said, I'll say it again; I LOVE CASINO'S(however, I'm not esctatic about what they've done to online gaming in my country)! I'm just smart enough to avoid the games that can't be beaten

 

[Debi]

We need a separate thread for discussing the outcome:

Phil Ivey Loses Crockfords Casino Lawsuit!

 

[OzExorcist]

I don't think that letting counters and edge sorters slide would put casinos out of business. Even including the whales like Ivey. What's 12 million to crockfords really?

One $12 million session? Probably not much, you're right.

But card counters and advantage players only make up a small portion of the player pool at the moment because the casinos work hard to keep it that way, by denying those people action.

If there was a guarantee that card counters and advantage players would be granted unlimited action then they'd all pile in, their money would quickly start to outweigh the casuals, the casino would start losing money hand over fist, and either wouldn't be in business any more or would change the games to eliminate the advantage.

 

[or3o1990]

One $12 million session? Probably not much, you're right.

But card counters and advantage players only make up a small portion of the player pool at the moment because the casinos work hard to keep it that way, by denying those people action.

If there was a guarantee that card counters and advantage players would be granted unlimited action then they'd all pile in, their money would quickly start to outweigh the casuals, the casino would start losing money hand over fist, and either wouldn't be in business any more or would change the games to eliminate the advantage.

I find it hard to believe that casino's would stand to loose money. While what your saying does make some sense, casino's just make so much money it'd be difficult to put a dent in it. Not to mention there are so few players that can grind out an advantage and still so many games with no advantage. I dunno about the casino's by you but Patowatomi in Milwaukee Wisconsin is packed with overweight senior citizens fighting over the slots.. They don't care that they'll never profit, they'll always be there giving their money away everyday along with the other degenerate gamblers playing various table games. The poker room is a ****ing shark tank however..

 

[S3mper]

I find it hard to believe that casino's would stand to loose money. While what your saying does make some sense, casino's just make so much money it'd be difficult to put a dent in it. Not to mention there are so few players that can grind out an advantage and still so many games with no advantage. I dunno about the casino's by you but Patowatomi in Milwaukee Wisconsin is packed with overweight senior citizens fighting over the slots.. They don't care that they'll never profit, they'll always be there giving their money away everyday along with the other degenerate gamblers playing various table games. The poker room is a ****ing shark tank however..

When New Jersey first allowed Casino's in order to be competitive against Nevada they welcomed all card counters... I think it was less than a month where the Casinos were just losing way to much and had to ban advantage players.

Advantage players would make so much more money then they do now if advantage play was allowed because they wouldn't need to try to hide it and could adjust their bets to make the most profit or not adjust their bets however they try to stay under the radar lol

 

[or3o1990]

When New Jersey first allowed Casino's in order to be competitive against Nevada they welcomed all card counters... I think it was less than a month where the Casinos were just losing way to much and had to ban advantage players.

Advantage players would make so much more money then they do now if advantage play was allowed because they wouldn't need to try to hide it and could adjust their bets to make the most profit or not adjust their bets however they try to stay under the radar lol

I guess. I just don't see how the numbers could add up like that..

 

[S3mper]

I guess. I just don't see how the numbers could add up like that..

Phil Ivey won $12 million dollars in 2 days with a 6% edge, Countless card counters openly Card counting for ever would destroy a casino

 

[IntenseHeat]

actually flip this round and change the game.

lets take blackjack and house has pre edge sorted the decks so all A,2,3,4,5,6 are turned one way. do you think the game is now fair when the house can now have much better odds of taking another card without busting knowing that the top card of the deck is 6 or lower . Is the house cheating? I think most people would agree that they are , so why should Ivey doing it be any different.

There is a hole in this logic. The flaw in this thinking is in the fact that the house edge actually comes from the players acting before the dealer and the fact that if a player busts, their bet is immediately forfeited. That is to say that the player would lose their bet to the house, before the dealer acts, and regardless of the outcome of the dealer's hand. It's like saying that you have to score first. If you don't score, then the dealer automatically wins without having to do anything. But if you do score, the dealer then has a chance to tie or beat your score.


The dealer doesn't actually make any choices in the playing of their hand. Instead, the dealers actions are governed completely by the rules. Where knowing the value of the next card to come might affect our choice to hit or stand, it would have no affect on the way the dealer's hand is played. If we knew for sure that the next cards would bust us, we would choose to stand right there. The dealer on the other hand, must draw on all hands under 17. The way it is printed on the table is that the dealer must draw on 16 and stand on 17. So if the dealer's count was 15, and you had stood on 12, the dealer would still have to draw, even if they knew without doubt that the next card was a face card that would bust them. If the count to the dealer were 17 and you had stood on 18, the dealer would have to stand there and lose, even if they knew for a fact that the next card in the deck were a 3.

 

[or3o1990]

I don't think any blackjack players are gaining a 6% edge but I'll take your word for it..

 

[S3mper]

I don't think any blackjack players are gaining a 6% edge but I'll take your word for it..

I think it's a 2-3% edge with basic strategy, but countless of them doing it would be devastating

 

[or3o1990]

That sounds about right. And I guess it does make sense.. If they were able to just sit around and grind it out 24/7 it would probably have a considerable affect.

 

[S3mper]

That sounds about right. And I guess it does make sense.. If they were able to just sit around and grind it out 24/7 it would probably have a considerable affect.

I wish they could do it even though I don't count lol, I would try to identify one (shouldn't be to hard if they didn't have to mask it) then use basic strategy and follow the counters betting patterns

 

[or3o1990]

That's funny and it would totally work too.. The casinos would definitely go bankrupt!

 

[Dlew123]

Anyone found the full episode on 60 minutes yet?

 

[S3mper]

Anyone found the full episode on 60 minutes yet?

I watched it on Showtime... I didn't know it only featured Ivey for like 15 minutes.. They had 2 other stories both had around 15 minutes, then the other 15 minutes were filled by an annoying clock ticking sound.


It wasn't that good Tbh.. Was disappointed..

 

[ScottieDuncan]

UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!

 

[wowasenotrusov]

Phil Ivey is the best poker igro. congratulate him with another achievement.

 

[Keith_MM]

did you actually read the thread?. In effect the achievement you are congratulating him on is being labelled a cheat by the uk civil courts.

 

[jazzaxe]

It seems that the Blackjack thread has turned into a poker thread.