More High Roller Cheating.

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DS3

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Some may recall a flurry of accusations were made at the end of last year. I believe Chris 'Big Huni' Hunachin kicked it off after he called out a few individuals about a lot of scams and cheating which has been ongoing for a while. This appeared to be underlined by GG Poker kicking tens of players off the site including a few rumored notables.

Well, Ali Imsirovic has stunk up the room yet again - I'll let the reports speak for themselves. It would appear some pros have had enough of such antics having a blind eye turned on them.

At this point over the last several months Chris Hunichen, Fedor Holz, Matt Berkey, Justin Bonomo and Alex Foxen have all spoken up and though this round of accusations was directed at Imsirovic, Bonomo's rather cryptic reference to one player is Jake Schindler (which really kills me as he's a favorite player of mine that I knew had been accused of online antics).

Really pathetic when these guys are making millions.

https://www.pocketfives.com/article...-of-cheating-at-live-and-online-poker-638144/

https://highstakesdb.com/news/high-...ses-ali-imsirovic-of-live-and-online-cheating
 
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RTA (Real Time Assistance) in online poker
I am afraid this is more or less a lost battle, since no effective methods of enforcement excist. I mean: How are you ever going to prove, if someone has software running on a separate computer, or have their coach sitting next to them during a final table? Its just not possible, so the only way for players to protect themselfes is to either not play very high stakes, where this is more likely to happen, or to use real time assistance themselfes.

Peeking at cards in live poker
This is clearly unethical but not actually against the rules, since it is the obligation of each player to always protect their cards. And I guess, this is exactly why, Alex Foxen choose to call it out. The only possible punishment for this is not being allowed into future games, as happened to that guy in Hustlers casino. And yeah. Some bad publicity on social media can certainly result in this, especially since a lot of high stakes action these days is in private games.
 
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RTA (Real Time Assistance) in online poker
I am afraid this is more or less a lost battle, since no effective methods of enforcement excist. I mean: How are you ever going to prove, if someone has software running on a separate computer, or have their coach sitting next to them during a final table? Its just not possible, so the only way for players to protect themselfes is to either not play very high stakes, where this is more likely to happen, or to use real time assistance themselfes.

Peeking at cards in live poker
This is clearly unethical but not actually against the rules, since it is the obligation of each player to always protect their cards. And I guess, this is exactly why, Alex Foxen choose to call it out. The only possible punishment for this is not being allowed into future games, as happened to that guy in Hustlers casino. And yeah. Some bad publicity on social media can certainly result in this, especially since a lot of high stakes action these days is in private games.

Yeah, regarding real time assistance you are right - lost battle. If someone wants to employ such methods, virtually undetectable especially if someone is aware of what sites are looking for in terms of patterns. Just be a little subtle.

I think what is bugging the majority of honest professionals is it would seem some have gotten away with a lot of stunts over an extended period. The rumors have been rife and yet no one seems to crack down. I can understand why even the commentators such as Jeff Platt and Brett Hanks came under some flack as well...they have been bigging up the likes of Imsirovic for the last several years. Yeah, on the one hand a brilliant player but on the other they must have a clear idea of these guys reputations.

It's just as sordid as all hell...and with guys at the top of the poker tree it just unnecessarily greedy beyond comprehension.
 
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Interesting...Matt Berkey followed up with another podcast which is asking why are there no consequences? They cover a lot of ground here.

Haven't listened to the entire episode yet but the early discussion is excellent and it's well worth it to watch.

Matt Berkey - 'Ali is too big to fail...nobody is going to do ****' and that is the problem. They then discuss potential measures to take into the future.

 
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Thanks, DS. I will be checking in on this for sure AND definitely will tune into Matt Berkey's (Solve for Why) podcast.
 
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Thanks, DS. I will be checking in on this for sure AND definitely will tune into Matt Berkey's (Solve for Why) podcast.

Please do!

One great point Matt Berkey makes is there is a relationship between GG Poker, PokerGo and the wsop - they are affiliated and cross-promote. Imsirovic for one appears to be on GG Pokers 'blacklist' so why don't these three bodies co-operate, share blacklists with each other, then impose a ban for a long period to send a message to such players, especially those who have horses who also appear to be colluding.

If you have time, drop back to the thread with any comments/input, Shells.
 
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I'm only 20 minutes into the Matt Berkey podcast and just couldn't stop thinking the link below is a big part of this discussion.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/pok...ity-at-partypoker-calling-503192/#post6351066



Thanks for the link which is an interesting thread.

I believe the groundswell of 'opinion' at this point is not so much shock at cheating within poker but more the fact people have had enough of it. The impression I get is many to date have sort of shrugged their shoulders as though all is fair in love and war (I don't want to venture off at a tangent but the bad boy image that so many love to cultivate industry wide doesn't help either)

I agree with party poker's Pasanen that an industry wide blacklist should be be put together (though it should be noted that Rob Yong hedged a little and said 'verified beyond any doubt).

So back to Imsirovic as it would appear he is one of tens busted for using RTA at GG. That would have had to have been some flagrant use to technology to get caught, because a fundiver199 had said, that can be virtually impossible to trace without much effort. But GG confiscated $1.17 million dollars, re-distributed to thousands of members without a peep from those involved - no protestations, no suits to reclaim their funds. That spoke volumes. Just from that incident, I regard it in the same vein as banks committing major frauds, getting fined and then settling because in the bigger picture it's just 'the cost of doing business'.

Take Jake Schindler for instance who really was one of my favorite players. I had heard rumors of him 'known' to be a cheat for some time and dismissed them. Then he was cited again at the end of last year (again in the rumor mill) then mentioned again in this round of exposees...when it was noted he was kicked off pokerstars years ago? That was something I did not know (relatively new to poker) and that bugs me. I try to be informed and the idea I had been a fan of Schindler without knowing be had reportedly been banned by PokerStars irked me. I would have formed a different opinion of him a few years ago.

A blacklist would be a great place to start. poker sites share information and if a player merits being punished then it becomes industry wide. Common sense can be applied. An initial ban for say six months to a year (which would encompass both online and live events such as the WSOP). Latitude might be given for casinos to allow such players to play cash games etc but at least people would know they are dealing with.

Anyways, if nothing else it is a good thing the matter of cheating and how it is handled (or not) industry wide is being repeatedly exposed of late.
 
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Thanks for the link which is an interesting thread.

I believe the groundswell of 'opinion' at this point is not so much shock at cheating within poker but more the fact people have had enough of it. The impression I get is many to date have sort of shrugged their shoulders as though all is fair in love and war (I don't want to venture off at a tangent but the bad boy image that so many love to cultivate industry wide doesn't help either)

I agree with Party Poker's Pasanen that an industry wide blacklist should be be put together (though it should be noted that Rob Yong hedged a little and said 'verified beyond any doubt).

So back to Imsirovic as it would appear he is one of tens busted for using RTA at GG. That would have had to have been some flagrant use to technology to get caught, because a fundiver199 had said, that can be virtually impossible to trace without much effort. But GG confiscated $1.17 million dollars, re-distributed to thousands of members without a peep from those involved - no protestations, no suits to reclaim their funds. That spoke volumes. Just from that incident, I regard it in the same vein as banks committing major frauds, getting fined and then settling because in the bigger picture it's just 'the cost of doing business'.

Take Jake Schindler for instance who really was one of my favorite players. I had heard rumors of him 'known' to be a cheat for some time and dismissed them. Then he was cited again at the end of last year (again in the rumor mill) then mentioned again in this round of exposees...when it was noted he was kicked off PokerStars years ago? That was something I did not know (relatively new to poker) and that bugs me. I try to be informed and the idea I had been a fan of Schindler without knowing be had reportedly been banned by PokerStars irked me. I would have formed a different opinion of him a few years ago.

A blacklist would be a great place to start. Poker sites share information and if a player merits being punished then it becomes industry wide. Common sense can be applied. An initial ban for say six months to a year (which would encompass both online and live events such as the WSOP). Latitude might be given for casinos to allow such players to play cash games etc but at least people would know they are dealing with.

Anyways, if nothing else it is a good thing the matter of cheating and how it is handled (or not) industry wide is being repeatedly exposed of late.

I must be living under a rock or something not realizing just how many well-known poker players have been accused by public opinion and some actual evidence viewed (by other poker players involved, which I have not yet seen) pretty much due to the Solve For Why podcast. The Matt Berkey podcast really opened my eyes more than ever with some interesting observations and comments made by Matt and his crew. Midway through the podcast the group collectively wondered where the accountability was and just how and who would take charge of setting ground rules, since there is no governing body for the entire poker industry. Like fundiver mentioned, it's not a crime to cheat but it's terribly unethical.

It's true, RTA with online poker is not detectable so far and it will be a lost battle until it IS detectable (if that is at all possible). Really though, there is so much work to be done to try to keep people interested in online poker especially when we are reminded of the cheating that just doesn't go away. I know that most of the players involved with cheating are far more high profile, high stakes players but speaking as a novice poker player, I have zero aspirations of ever playing any of the high stakes games these fellas are a part of - more so now than ever.
 
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Some may recall a flurry of accusations were made at the end of last year. I believe Chris 'Big Huni' Hunachin kicked it off after he called out a few individuals about a lot of scams and cheating which has been ongoing for a while. This appeared to be underlined by GG Poker kicking tens of players off the site including a few rumored notables.

Well, Ali Imsirovic has stunk up the room yet again - I'll let the reports speak for themselves. It would appear some pros have had enough of such antics having a blind eye turned on them.

At this point over the last several months Chris Hunichen, Fedor Holz, Matt Berkey, Justin Bonomo and Alex Foxen have all spoken up and though this round of accusations was directed at Imsirovic, Bonomo's rather cryptic reference to one player is Jake Schindler (which really kills me as he's a favorite player of mine that I knew had been accused of online antics).

Really pathetic when these guys are making millions.

https://www.pocketfives.com/article...-of-cheating-at-live-and-online-poker-638144/

https://highstakesdb.com/news/high-...ses-ali-imsirovic-of-live-and-online-cheating


Do you know that at one point Bonomo had received Lifetime bans online by more than one room (ie. partypoker & Stars), as he'd been caught multi-accounting (6 entries into some tournaments on Partypoker)
 
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Do you know that at one point Bonomo had received Lifetime bans online by more than one room (ie. Partypoker & Stars), as he'd been caught multi-accounting (6 entries into some tournaments on Partypoker)

Yes, I do believe I knew he had multi-accounted. Similar to Sorel Mizzi who is another serial abuser. I quoted Bonomo because it related to the recent round of accusations.

I believe both Bonomo and Mizzi have claimed to have cleaned up their acts...but the fact remains with the entire lot of them, why do they not face more severe consequences, which as Matt Berkey underlined needs to bleed into live play as well.

Little if anything seems to be done to truly disincentivize cheating players in a wider context. As was also pointed out on the Solve For Why podcast one player they knew was banned from WSOP New Jersey was still allowed to play on WSOP Nevada.

It's ridiculous.
 
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It's true, RTA with online poker is not detectable so far and it will be a lost battle until it IS detectable (if that is at all possible).


And yet there's a list of pros who have been banned from GG due to the use of RTA (perhaps it's the suspected use of RTA?).

I think this 'list' of players who have been banned should've been published for all of the poker community to see. I guess you run into problems when or if some are wrongly accused (which they ALL say they have been).
 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKKgjlNGKOk

The Frog cleanse sounds pretty strange, lol. WTF?

Oh. My. God.

I just watched the whole thing and came to link it to find you beat me to it.

It's so funny because some time ago I caught Bryn Kenney on some podcasts and thought he was not playing with a full deck - explaining how he was going to change the world as he was destined for bigger things than poker. The whole 'cult leader' break down hilarious accepting for the fact there appear to have been serious shenanigans going on with Kenney his stable of horses and GG Poker.

The comments are hilarious...and I just hope this leads to more and more crap getting exposed so to some degree poker starts to clean house.
 
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And yet there's a list of pros who have been banned from GG due to the use of RTA (perhaps it's the suspected use of RTA?).

I think this 'list' of players who have been banned should've been published for all of the poker community to see. I guess you run into problems when or if some are wrongly accused (which they ALL say they have been).


I have to believe those who have been banned from GGPoker, were banned due to strong suspicions of RTA use.
 
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I have to believe those who have been banned from GGPoker, were banned due to strong suspicions of RTA use.


I totally agree. Why would they want to lose business from some well-known, high-rake paying players, some with a following within the poker community... unless there was good reason for it.
 
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I totally agree. Why would they want to lose business from some well-known, high-rake paying players, some with a following within the poker community... unless there was good reason for it.

After this second round of accusations - from Ali Imsirovic onto Bryn Kenney- I wonder if the faith with which GG placed in a figure such as Kenney made them aware that at all levels the platform could be cheated but at the high roller level the incentive was greatest.

But first I want to interject with this crucial point which everyone and their uncle seems to have overlooked. All these abuses on GG Poker , which would include signing up of players to GG which Zamani claimed he did at the WSOP (to provide rake to Kenney and his stable) were all being done by US based players. Though Zamani was operating for Kenney online out of mexico...are we seriously to presume all the players who got taken were also playing from outside the US? So, would it be fair to ask whether GG was allowing the widespread use of VPN's through certain phases? I know the high roller streams which I have watched of late all feature players who definitely are internationally based...but through these scam phases?

Back to the scams.

I remember GG made a song and dance about Bryn Kenney (2018?) as it was in the early days of my interest in poker, which was as much the psychology of poker as the gamble. I knew Kenney was a notoriously a reckless player. He had gone broke numerous times so I found him an odd choice as a brand ambassador or whatever role he played.

But, it wasn't until these new accusations that I realized at some point Bryn Kenney just seemed to disappear from all things GG. If fact I had to Google what had happened and found one report that (like Dan Bilzerian) someone realized Bryn Kenney was no longer featured anywhere on GG. They asked and a GG spokesman confirmed, Kenney was 'no longer with them...but they wished him all the best'.

One presumes at that point that GG (naive idiots?) were horrified at how Kenney was abusing them on numerous fronts including using RTA and his horses. Martin Zamani's claims now appear accurate and have been verified independently including by Lauren Roberts. For example, what was a little hazy in the Doug Polk podcast became clearer on the Solve For Why podcast regarding Lauren Roberts.

Roberts is successful, very wealthy and had a passion to learn poker. Somehow Kenney became good 'friends' with her, persuaded Roberts he could set up small games for her to play on GG (he could) and then used his horses to batter her. After the Polk podcast someone checked Lauren Roberts sharkscope profile to confirm she had lost $2 million through those games. Roberts then confirmed by Tweet she had even allowed Kenney to use her account at times as Zamani had claimed.

I presume after the Bryn Kenney debacle unfolded behind the scenes at GG, they probed the extent to which they had allowed him and his network to abuse the site and numerous members. The rake to agents and Kenney himself, the setting up of games to fleece members through the use of ghosting and of course Real Time Assistance.

I am going to credit GG as playing no willing role in any of this until I hear otherwise - they just come off as incredibly gullible. However if they did learn anything from the Kenney abuse it would be to look for similar situations to develop which would mean they likely concluded Imsirovic and Schindler were pulling similar stunts (horses, ghosting and RTA) in terms of targeting players at specific level of game.

And regarding the Imsirovic phase using GG to abuse others, I understand why Alex Foxen teed off with direct allegations. Foxen and Kristin Bicknell are partners but also two of the best players in the world. Kristin Bicknell revealed yesterday that together they had endured a downswing of $1.5 million dollars through that period. When GG then announced it had kicked off players and 'seized' funds which they would redistribute (without releasing any names) they compensated Foxen and Bicknell to the tune of $15,000 dollars.

So though I am not accusing GG Poker of being complicit, there would seem to be a gigantic hole of millions of dollars being 'won' in dubious circumstances and little evidence (to date) such funds were seized and re-distributed with equity.

By the by, for those reading this far it should also be noted it was confirmed Cary Katz (yes, of PokerGo) has apparently been Bryn Kenney's long term backer and he would allow Kenneys stable of horses to sign into live tournaments under his account. Also according to Zamani, Kenney and his horses were allowed a free run on Party Poker for a spell before that finally got knocked on the head.
 
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Playing with cameras, radio transmitters and computers. using zoom cameras built into handbags and transmitters with miniature earphones hidden under wigs, high rollers liked to throw money around them, being sure that security cameras were recording their every move, a new dealer stood at the table with decoy ducks, about these species I have read scams.
 
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Thanks for the link which is an interesting thread.

I believe the groundswell of 'opinion' at this point is not so much shock at cheating within poker but more the fact people have had enough of it. The impression I get is many to date have sort of shrugged their shoulders as though all is fair in love and war (I don't want to venture off at a tangent but the bad boy image that so many love to cultivate industry wide doesn't help either)

I agree with Party Poker's Pasanen that an industry wide blacklist should be be put together (though it should be noted that Rob Yong hedged a little and said 'verified beyond any doubt).

So back to Imsirovic as it would appear he is one of tens busted for using RTA at GG. That would have had to have been some flagrant use to technology to get caught, because a fundiver199 had said, that can be virtually impossible to trace without much effort. But GG confiscated $1.17 million dollars, re-distributed to thousands of members without a peep from those involved - no protestations, no suits to reclaim their funds. That spoke volumes. Just from that incident, I regard it in the same vein as banks committing major frauds, getting fined and then settling because in the bigger picture it's just 'the cost of doing business'.

Take Jake Schindler for instance who really was one of my favorite players. I had heard rumors of him 'known' to be a cheat for some time and dismissed them. Then he was cited again at the end of last year (again in the rumor mill) then mentioned again in this round of exposees...when it was noted he was kicked off PokerStars years ago? That was something I did not know (relatively new to poker) and that bugs me. I try to be informed and the idea I had been a fan of Schindler without knowing be had reportedly been banned by PokerStars irked me. I would have formed a different opinion of him a few years ago.

A blacklist would be a great place to start. Poker sites share information and if a player merits being punished then it becomes industry wide. Common sense can be applied. An initial ban for say six months to a year (which would encompass both online and live events such as the WSOP). Latitude might be given for casinos to allow such players to play cash games etc but at least people would know they are dealing with.

Anyways, if nothing else it is a good thing the matter of cheating and how it is handled (or not) industry wide is being repeatedly exposed of late.


Your posts and discussion on this topic DS3 - have enlightened me.

For me the shock is not that there is cheating but that those accused are some big names - some rising in popularity.

The "cult" story is a separate story that seems to distract from the cheating story itself. It is a side-show.

You mention black-listing players. But if they are using other accounts and player names - then why would it matter? Just start a new name/account.

A camera or zoom type of setup while playing could alleviate multi-account playing.

I feel like I can't play a $100 tournament online - and I really want to. But the smallish field in high buy-in tournaments are all regulars and these stories confirm for me I would not get a fair shake in playing.

These accusations are of big players, who know how to play poker. Why do they need to cheat like this?

One of the biggest reasons not to cheat is that it probably won't work.
 
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Your posts and discussion on this topic DS3 - have enlightened me.

For me the shock is not that there is cheating but that those accused are some big names - some rising in popularity.

The "cult" story is a separate story that seems to distract from the cheating story itself. It is a side-show.

You mention black-listing players. But if they are using other accounts and player names - then why would it matter? Just start a new name/account.

A camera or zoom type of setup while playing could alleviate multi-account playing.

I feel like I can't play a $100 tournament online - and I really want to. But the smallish field in high buy-in tournaments are all regulars and these stories confirm for me I would not get a fair shake in playing.

These accusations are of big players, who know how to play poker. Why do they need to cheat like this?

One of the biggest reasons not to cheat is that it probably won't work.

I believe the most obvious answer is psychopathic greed.

Yes, all the players mentioned are brilliant but apparently that is not enough and Matt Berkey also went off on a riff about that type existing in the poker world that if you are not cheating you are not maximizing your edge.

If you visit various forums it is amazing what is emerging. Bryn Kenney for example getting thrown out of one of Magic The Gathering's most prestigious youth championships as a thirteen year old for marking cards. When you then hear what Kenney had done to court Lauren Roberts and then fleece her (the Sharkscope data is now out there and irrefutable) the only conclusion is not much different to a serial con-man.

Further, regarding individuals such as Cary Katz (who obviously has now been publicly exposed as Bryn Kenney's backer) I have long expressed my doubts about his character and his companies involvement in the poker world as PokerGo came to dominate the poker media landscape from behind a paywall. That hold appears to be crumbling to a degree but I do not know why entities such as the WSOP partnered with him. Katz and his family made a fortune through student loans, a predatory business practice which in my opinion should have never existed. To find out he has been Kenney's financial backer for years proved to me he is a dubious character. However, how many knew of Kenney's, Imsirivic and Schindler's reputation for years and simply shrugged their shoulders and allowed it to continue in one form or another.

Regarding multi-accounting, it is getting more and more difficult to pull off. In part due to measures put in place by the UK government newer sign ups to the likes of poker sites now have to produce not just valid IDs, passport etc., but also proof of residency via utility bills etc. Obviously, someone can use another identity to set up an account but then getting the site to pay out winnings gets increasing difficult.

That said, as I pointed out above, no one seems to have touched on the idea that numerous parties must have been using VPNs through specific periods at GG Poker which they must have been well aware of. Further they would appear to have drastically underreported the millions that players were scammed out of, and are hazy regarding how the funds, and how much of the funds were redistributed back to players.
 
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I believe the most obvious answer is psychopathic greed.

Yes, all the players mentioned are brilliant but apparently that is not enough and Matt Berkey also went off on a riff about that type existing in the poker world that if you are not cheating you are not maximizing your edge.


There is a culture of "I gotta get mine". And even.....push you out of the way so I can "get yours too".

Here is what I don't understand....

The woman "fish" referenced in the story....if she is such a big fish - why do you even need to "cheat" her??

Set up a table with accomplices?? I guess this ensures that your team gets her money.

Let her win one or two sessions in a row......a pro's game (whatever that style is) will eventually overcome a fish's bankroll. No?

Why would Michael Jordan need to cheat me if I played him in basketball?
 
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There is a culture of "I gotta get mine". And even.....push you out of the way so I can "get yours too".

Here is what I don't understand....

The woman "fish" referenced in the story....if she is such a big fish - why do you even need to "cheat" her??

Set up a table with accomplices?? I guess this ensures that your team gets her money.

Let her win one or two sessions in a row......a pro's game (whatever that style is) will eventually overcome a fish's bankroll. No?

Why would Michael Jordan need to cheat me if I played him in basketball?

I'd put it down to a mindset of aject pettiness. Regarding Kenney fleecing Lauren Roberts, it really is foul.

I've watched her play several times and she seems like a lovely lady. She is no dummy (she made her money in finance) but I presume that the draw of having an 'in' to high stakes poker through Kenney was alluring and certainly at first, she fell for his BS. By the by, several others hovered around those specific games at times including Cary Katz, Justin Bonomo and Michael Adamo, though with the latter two I hope to think it was just happenstance as that is the level they play.

By the by, Roberts is issuing a stream of Tweets corroborating the events as detailed by Zemani (I presume because on many levels he's a dubious character himself). And regarding the pettiness, Roberts confirmed Kenney used her account to play against his own horses, thereby fleecing them at the time as they thought they were playing 'soft' Roberts. Kenney had the audacity to tell her she had 'won' a tournament she hadn't even played herself.

Regarding the reports of the money involved (Kenney making $2 million a week) I find that a ludicrous, implausible figure. However, what I would guess is as a degen gambler and reckless spender, Kenney's fortunes have always yo-yoed and he is simply always on the hustle to keep himself liquid.

Regarding the need to cheat - no I don't get it either when you have the talent such as these guys have to win at high stakes and make a fortune. But then you and I or the average guy simply do not approach life from the same perspective. They're lowlifes.
 
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Why would Michael Jordan need to cheat me if I played him in basketball?


Because he can.

imo, many poker players are selfish, self-centered, immature narcissits.

The basic poker mentality is 'screw over the other player' 'deceive the other player' 'take AS MUCH as you can get from the other player' (< aka. maximize profits). I recall starting out playing online back in 2007. I chose to play tournament style poker (sng, mtt-sng & mtt) over cashgames because I honestly hated the feeling I would get when winning pots on cash tables. Tournaments felt different... it was 1 buyin, and more like a lottery.
 
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