Do you agree with UK Supreme Court Decision Against Phil Ivey (Edge-Sorting)?

[Kenzie 96]

What do you think of the Brits keeping Phil Ivey's money because they call what he did cheating?

Is there another word for cheating that you would prefer they use, so as not to insult Phil's delicate sensibilities?

 

[mtl mile end]

sucks he had to pay it back but i guess u run the risk when your playing those type of games and doing these tactics to win. kinda same as card counting, i dont mind if people win but if its discovered then pay it back

Card counting is definitely NOT cheating, and should be allowed.

 

[Rational Madman]

Card counting is definitely NOT cheating, and should be allowed.

Online sites rig against card counting did you know that? The "RNG" is not RNG for blackjack, it's intentionally so absurdly done that card counting systems don't work on online shuffling methods.

With real life shuffling it's legit random, this means you can run the casino dry with card counting. You just don't understand. A casino is there to give people a thrill and a good night out, it's not there to be a charity. You need to seriously understand this before you go judging. casinos are A LUXURY INDUSTRY not a profession of any official kind where you deserve to be rewarded for your 'hard work' learning to abuse their games and make them bankrupt.

 

[mtl mile end]

Card counting relies on using the same deck(s) for deal after deal. Your counting gives you insight into what's in the stub. If the deck is reshuffled every hand (online RNG), the edge is lost.

 

[anthonydalvaro]

What Asian dealer? I realize Baccarat is popular with Asians and therefore many of the dealers must be Asian, but I've not heard anything about the ethnicity of the dealer. As well, since this occurred over many hours, if not days (4 days?) I doubt the same dealer was there for the whole of the session(s).

EDIT*
The four day thing was Borgata in AC. I don't know the timing of the UK session, but it surely was longer than one dealer's turn at the table.

Ivey said in an interview that he requested an Asian dealer so that his companion could communicate with the him/her.

 

[Rational Madman]

Card counting relies on using the same deck(s) for deal after deal. Your counting gives you insight into what's in the stub. If the deck is reshuffled every hand (online RNG), the edge is lost.

If I ran a nation or this casino I will make Ivey not just pay back but beg for mercy as my lawyers push for white collar prison. You talking like Ivey is some poor guy just trying to scrape some money to save his dad from cancer by counting cards. He had inside dealing happening and the casino trusted him as he's reputable within the gambling community and was very proud to host him.

I would ban him from ever entering UK again and I don't care if he's Negreanu's friend. I love Negreanu and pokerstars but Ivey is vile filth as a human being. He lives only for himself, literally this is his ethos and it disgusts me.

 

[OzExorcist]

I'm curious at what point they figured out they got played. Any competent staff member should have had all flags raised.

Right away I expect, since the whole issue here is they never paid him his winnings - as opposed to the US casinos, which sued him to get their money back because they did pay him.

Edge sorting wasn't an unheard-of concept at the time, anyone competent working in casino security at the time should have been aware of it. And the requests he was making during the game to facilitate it were pretty blatant.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were trying to freeroll him: even with edge sorting it's still possible he could lose some amount. If he had've lost, they wouldn't have given him his money back. But since he won, they were able to withhold payment and claim he cheated.

 

[Rational Madman]

Right away I expect, since the whole issue here is they never paid him his winnings - as opposed to the US casinos, which sued him to get their money back because they did pay him.

Edge sorting wasn't an unheard-of concept at the time, anyone competent working in casino security at the time should have been aware of it. And the requests he was making during the game to facilitate it were pretty blatant.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were trying to freeroll him: even with edge sorting it's still possible he could lose some amount. If he had've lost, they wouldn't have given him his money back. But since he won, they were able to withhold payment and claim he cheated.

I will like to see him edge-sort you into bankruptcy and see you pay him back. How about every Aussie casino until your nation weeps?

You talk big because you are not putting yourself in the shoes of the casino staff here. Ivey did very filthy thing and they were naive and trusted him due to his reputation with his corrupt dealer. The dealer let him study, in detail, the edge pattern of cards. This same dealer dealt extra slow for Ivey, you have no idea what you are defending; a multi millionaire sociopath.

You stop to cry for little baby Ivey yeah? He is not a little baby, he is a big bad wolf.

 

[Rational Madman]

. If this were a game against other players and not the house, wouldn't you consider it cheating if someone noticed a defect in the deck and decided to keep quiet and use it to their advantage? What if you were at a poker table with such a person? What do you do at a poker table when you spot a defect or a flashed card?

Yes it is cheating to do so. Such a player would disgust me this is why I play only at PS, it is the only site to truly annihilate cheaters with real analysis of people failing to shove against one another after a lot of aggression until that point etc. They have best bot-cracking hand analysis, best collusion analysis and best support team who will be totally fair to you if you are suspected of being a bot and let you film yourself playing with phone etc so that all is set straight.

If I spot any kind of stuff at a poker table we must first ask, is this some shady home game with guys who will beat me up or cause me hassle on the streets if I expose them flashing cards to each other etc? Also consider, is the flash intentional or a n accident and was it meant for the guy to your left etc?

If at a legit casino of any sort, I will hold my hand up and admit I saw what I saw and leave the poker table if need be. I play play-money poker and love poker for poker's sake, not just for money AT ALL. I adore the fairness of the game and how it's true randomness. You cannot get fairness like the RNG of poker and it teaches you so much about life and risk and everything.

I will never cheat ever in my life at anything. It is my duty to be an honest competitor at anything I do. If I even slightly use a technology or a gift of eyesight of a card back pattern to not gamble properly I am a worthless loser who is too pathetic to ever profit from gambling like a real warrior of the gambling battlefield. If I have any unfair advantage that alters the dynamic of the game for me to make me able to have even the minutia of more information enter my brain than my opponents or make my life easier than is allowed then I am a worthless trash player who should quit and say "I suck".

Don't be a coward in life, you will never feel good and deserve to be destroyed for your undeserved glory when the real warriors step up to the plate.

 

[OzExorcist]

I will like to see him edge-sort you into bankruptcy and see you pay him back. How about every Aussie casino until your nation weeps?

You talk big because you are not putting yourself in the shoes of the casino staff here. Ivey did very filthy thing and they were naive and trusted him due to his reputation with his corrupt dealer. The dealer let him study, in detail, the edge pattern of cards. This same dealer dealt extra slow for Ivey, you have no idea what you are defending; a multi millionaire sociopath.

You stop to cry for little baby Ivey yeah? He is not a little baby, he is a big bad wolf.

I might die laughing here. What on earth are you even talking about?!?

First of all, I work with casino staff every day. The vast majority of my friends are either current or ex croupiers. I don't need to put myself in their shoes, I know what their lives are like. Which is how I know the next bit:

Second, there is no way in blue hell that Ivey would have bankrupted the casino or in any way hurt the staff financially even if he had gotten away with what he was doing. If he had've been winning more than they were prepared to lose, they would have cut him off. Plus Ivey plays big, but he's hardly the biggest whale in the world. And casinos have swings worth millions every day on the action they take from whales. Also, Crockfords is a Genting property. They own over 40 casinos in the UK alone, and they had about $8.9 billion (yes, with a "b") in revenue last year. Here's their Wikipedia page if you want to get caught up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genting_Group

Third, I'm not "defending" Ivey. I'm just giving a no-BS assessment of the casino's actions. In my personal opinion, I think they were onto him from the start and they freerolled him. You can make your own judgement as to how proper a thing that might have been for them to do, if they did it. Either way, I've clearly got a better idea than you of what happened by the way since there was no "corrupt dealer" in this case. The dealer just followed instructions - both from the Ivey, his playing partner and, no doubt, the casino managers (who approved/indulged Ivey when he asked for specific cards to be used etc). At no point has it ever been suggested that there was any wrongdoing on the part of the dealer.

If you'd like to catch yourself up on the actual facts of the case, check out this thread from 2012 when the incident first became public and this thread from 2014 when his original lawsuit lost.

 

[shinedown.45]

Ivey did not bring his own cards to a casino! If he did, I think criminal charges would be in order. As per the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...0-million-in-winnings/?utm_term=.6e273b7462ea

I initially thought that Ivey had noticed an imperfection along the edge of full bleed decks. It was much simpler than that. Ivey and partner "asked for a specific brand of playing cards with a distinct white-circle pattern on the back". The cards requested were probably Gemaco brand. They are excellent quality cards and usually have a "Full Bleed" back, that is, no white border. The long sides of these cards are not the same, left and right, on each card. He specifically requested that the 7-9's of the decks be rotated 180 degrees relative to the other cards and shuffled by machine so that their positions (long side wise) wouldn't change. All this was done for him by the dealer as favours to a high roller's "superstition" . At this point, Ivey could identify the most valuable cards (7-9) from the back. At this point, the casinos and their dealers were acting in a gullible manner and were being taken advantage of by a cheat, not an angle IMO. When the house wanted to change the decks, Ivey requested that the "lucky" decks remain in play. His bet sizing started small and increased to the maximum until the house insisted on the changing of the decks, that's when he quit.

If the house is gullible and greedy enough to be taken advantage of in this way, you can argue liability, but I don't think that changes the fact that it's cheating.

I agree with this, he cheated, plain and simple.
He found an angle and exploited it by using his "high roller" status.

 

[mtl mile end]

If I ran a nation or this casino I will make Ivey not just pay back but beg for mercy as my lawyers push for white collar prison. You talking like Ivey is some poor guy just trying to scrape some money to save his dad from cancer by counting cards. He had inside dealing happening and the casino trusted him as he's reputable within the gambling community and was very proud to host him.

I would ban him from ever entering UK again and I don't care if he's Negreanu's friend. I love Negreanu and pokerstars but Ivey is vile filth as a human being. He lives only for himself, literally this is his ethos and it disgusts me.

No, I think Ivey cheated and that the casinos were lax in their approach.

I also think, and this at least the third time I've stated this in this thread, that counting in blackjack is definitely NOT cheating.

 

[mtl mile end]

If you'd like to catch yourself up on the actual facts of the case, check out this thread from 2012 when the incident first became public and this thread from 2014 when his original lawsuit lost.

Thanks for the links. I was wondering why this thread wasn't getting much attention. I guess some people are less inclined to rehashing their rehashed hash than others.

 

[Rational Madman]

I might die laughing here. What on earth are you even talking about?!?

First of all, I work with casino staff every day. The vast majority of my friends are either current or ex croupiers. I don't need to put myself in their shoes, I know what their lives are like. Which is how I know the next bit:

Second, there is no way in blue hell that Ivey would have bankrupted the casino or in any way hurt the staff financially even if he had gotten away with what he was doing. If he had've been winning more than they were prepared to lose, they would have cut him off. Plus Ivey plays big, but he's hardly the biggest whale in the world. And casinos have swings worth millions every day on the action they take from whales. Also, Crockfords is a Genting property. They own over 40 casinos in the UK alone, and they had about $8.9 billion (yes, with a "b") in revenue last year. Here's their Wikipedia page if you want to get caught up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genting_Group

Third, I'm not "defending" Ivey. I'm just giving a no-BS assessment of the casino's actions. In my personal opinion, I think they were onto him from the start and they freerolled him. You can make your own judgement as to how proper a thing that might have been for them to do, if they did it. Either way, I've clearly got a better idea than you of what happened by the way since there was no "corrupt dealer" in this case. The dealer just followed instructions - both from the Ivey, his playing partner and, no doubt, the casino managers (who approved/indulged Ivey when he asked for specific cards to be used etc). At no point has it ever been suggested that there was any wrongdoing on the part of the dealer.

If you'd like to catch yourself up on the actual facts of the case, check out this thread from 2012 when the incident first became public and this thread from 2014 when his original lawsuit lost.

They let him have his own dealer and trusted his reputation and also due to his fame wouldn't turn him down, in return the cheated and abused this nation. He can go back to USA and rot thank you goodbye.

 

[OzExorcist]

They let him have his own dealer and trusted his reputation and also due to his fame wouldn't turn him down, in return the cheated and abused this nation. He can go back to USA and rot thank you goodbye.

OMG LOL - you need to calm this down like a dozen notches

It's not like he did this to deliberately insult your country or something. After all, he did it in US casinos too. And as discussed in my previous post, this was never going to do any actual lasting harm to the country, the casino or its staff, even if he had gotten away with it, which he didn't. You're just being hysterical if you suggest otherwise.

And you still don't seem to have familiarised yourself with any of the relevant facts. He wasn't allowed to have "his own" dealer - the casino allowed him to use a private salon and they provided one of their croupiers. IIRC they provided one that spoke either Mandarin or Cantonese at Ivey's request, so that his companion (the one who had the skills to actually exploit the edge sorting) could converse easily with them. But that's all 100% normal in the world of high stakes private salon gaming.

I'm gonna bold this just so you actually understand it: the dealer did absolutely NOTHING wrong in this case. It's never been suggested they were complicit in any "cheating".

Whales make ridiculous requests all the time - if management has approved them, then it's not on the dealer to challenge that. It's on the casino managers and their game security team to pick up on people who are cheating. And like I said earlier (and back in 2012, and in 2014), my guess based on the way this played out, indulging all his specific requests for two days and then immediately refusing to pay him, is that casino security were onto him from the start.

As for "trusting his reputation", do you actually know what Ivey's reputation is as a table games player?!? Because it's not the same as it is with his poker fanbase. As a table games player Ivey is pretty well known as both an advantage player, and as someone who routinely hits and runs. Despite this, casinos are generally happy to take his action and indulge his requests because he's willing to risk reasonably large sums of money and the odds are still in their favour. Especially if they were somehow able to freeroll him when he thought he had an advantage...

 

[Rational Madman]

OMG LOL - you need to calm this down like a dozen notches

It's not like he did this to deliberately insult your country or something. After all, he did it in US casinos too. And as discussed in my previous post, this was never going to do any actual lasting harm to the country, the casino or its staff, even if he had gotten away with it, which he didn't. You're just being hysterical if you suggest otherwise.

And you still don't seem to have familiarised yourself with any of the relevant facts. He wasn't allowed to have "his own" dealer - the casino allowed him to use a private salon and they provided one of their croupiers. IIRC they provided one that spoke either Mandarin or Cantonese at Ivey's request, so that his companion (the one who had the skills to actually exploit the edge sorting) could converse easily with them. But that's all 100% normal in the world of high stakes private salon gaming.

I'm gonna bold this just so you actually understand it: the dealer did absolutely NOTHING wrong in this case. It's never been suggested they were complicit in any "cheating".

Whales make ridiculous requests all the time - if management has approved them, then it's not on the dealer to challenge that. It's on the casino managers and their game security team to pick up on people who are cheating. And like I said earlier (and back in 2012, and in 2014), my guess based on the way this played out, indulging all his specific requests for two days and then immediately refusing to pay him, is that casino security were onto him from the start.

As for "trusting his reputation", do you actually know what Ivey's reputation is as a table games player?!? Because it's not the same as it is with his poker fanbase. As a table games player Ivey is pretty well known as both an advantage player, and as someone who routinely hits and runs. Despite this, casinos are generally happy to take his action and indulge his requests because he's willing to risk reasonably large sums of money and the odds are still in their favour. Especially if they were somehow able to freeroll him when he thought he had an advantage...

I will like for him to abuse your casino staff friends like that and see who you stay loyal to then.

He is scumbag from very early days, he was in on Full Tilt using deposit money unethically and he didn't give 2 sh** because they pay him good endorsement wage.

Me, when I am pro I will only let PS endorse me and it will be a Negreanu style contract not some 'i am their slave' contract but a real partnership I tell you something I will never ever work for a corrupt company or put a single share in them and Ivey is just pure filth as a human from start of his poker career to this date.

Sociopaths they must be killed it is the truth but since that's not justifiable on a legal level let's just deport him to corrupt nation he comes from. Thank you trump enjoy your casino bankruptcy all over again!!!!!!

 

[pedro2125]

Surprised

I have read every member's opinion carefully ,I have come to the conclusion that you have to be in your shoes to know what should be happening phill ivey.

a man respected worldwide with an incredible trajectory and now everyone assumes that he made a scam , It really is something that is difficult to understand

I hope you get out of this problem because now the problem is not that you lost the money if you do not raise your reputation again

: eek: : eek: : eek: : eek:

 

[OzExorcist]

I will like for him to abuse your casino staff friends like that and see who you stay loyal to then.

OK, either you're not actually reading what I'm writing, or you're choosing to ignore it and go off on your own tangent anyway.

I'm not defending Ivey, or being "loyal" to him, or saying he's some kind of good guy. I honestly have no opinion on that issue.

I'm just pointing out where you're wrong about the facts, both of this case and of how this kind of high roller gaming works in general.

 

[AlexPedsPaps]

Got to give credit to him the man is a genius! However it is quite dirty, but regardless of this grey area it is obvious to us all that the house always wins...