C
cAPSLOCK
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
No offense to you Jay.. but your look a like DOES seem to be a little tarnished by this to say the least.
No offense to you Jay.. but your look a like DOES seem to be a little tarnished by this to say the least.
eberetta1
Legend
Loyaler
This is going to go into extra innings...
coolnout
Legend
Silver Level
last minute hail mary. ONE TIME.
Sumun
Rock Star
Silver Level
im a non US player of full tilt and at the time of its fall i was waiting a check that never came
is there any hope for us to see the money?
whats that about the merge?
maybe are stupid questions but there is too much to read here and i am confused
is there any hope for us to see the money?
whats that about the merge?
maybe are stupid questions but there is too much to read here and i am confused
NineLions
Advanced beginner
Silver Level
If you didn't receive it (I cashed most out right away and got the money), then you're probably no further ahead than those who didn't request the cashout. Your money is sitting with my last $200 that I didn't cash out, and we just have to wait and see.
alaskabill
Legend
Silver Level
Way to mindlessly play back what your govt. tells you. Full Tilt was horribly run and they are busto but they were not a ponzi scheme. They offered a legitimate service and had a source of profit.
Also, according to Subject Poker, there are some investors looking at it still. I wouldn't bet the farm on it but there is still a chance that the company will be saved and players paid.
Poker Orifice
FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
Appropriately chosen name imo (member name that is).
I really don't see this situation being anything remotely similiar to UB at all. Doubt they had 'intent'. Reading thru Tom Dwan's statements (& many other articles now), looks like when US deposits weren't going thru was the start of the problem, which after a couple weeks was possibly looked at as.. "oh wow.. what a s***y thing"...awhile later "bummer... now what?.. do we keep US deposits going.. or pull the plug (& what would be the consequences of both)".. all of which (imo) is related to processing difficulties on account of the DoJ in the first place. (if FTP & other's weren't doing what they could to make transactions go thru via whatever means & costs... then US players wouldn't be playing on there in the first place). Then WHAM... BlackFriday > acc't seizures happening while co. is already in a s**#*storm.
Poorly managed > yes. Prepared for something like this... obv. not in the slightest.
Seems like a real bummer that a co. that was worth LARGE just recently & potentially making Large profits could go under (or be in such poor shape now, where it seems it's not even worth what it is currently owing).
I'm not sure what kind of money FTP was making (prior to some of the US deposits not going thru) but am pretty sure it was LOTS. Seems like a real shame to me.
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
I reject the Ponzi scheme description. The nature of a ponzi scheme is to understand beforehand that you will be paying old investors with new investors money. The product is usually position in a multi-level marketing of positions in the multi-level market. If you are in early, you reap the rewards. If not? You're toast.
While the executives at Full Tilt may have treated the situation similar to a Ponzi scheme, if fails the test because they were offering an actual product (service) for a known price (rake/tourney fees). They had long ago reached critical mass to afford decent paychecks, but they got greedy and stupid. The model for online poker works as a continuous money machine, but they got in a hurry, or worse, conspired to steal. That they decided to dip (heavily) into future earnings is a whole different can of worms.
The product they offered was classy with good quality. Unfortunately, the people who offered the products have shown themselves to be pond scum ..... or worse.
While the executives at Full Tilt may have treated the situation similar to a Ponzi scheme, if fails the test because they were offering an actual product (service) for a known price (rake/tourney fees). They had long ago reached critical mass to afford decent paychecks, but they got greedy and stupid. The model for online poker works as a continuous money machine, but they got in a hurry, or worse, conspired to steal. That they decided to dip (heavily) into future earnings is a whole different can of worms.
The product they offered was classy with good quality. Unfortunately, the people who offered the products have shown themselves to be pond scum ..... or worse.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Plus to be a Ponzi scheme don't you need to be getting new money in, with which to pay the "old" investors?!? One of Tilt's biggest problems was that they weren't actually getting their hands on the new money.
It was many things, including monumentally stupid and irresponsible, but it obviously wasn't a Ponzi scheme.
It was many things, including monumentally stupid and irresponsible, but it obviously wasn't a Ponzi scheme.
Charade You Are
you can call me Frost
Silver Level
Finally some sanity. They are not being charged with running a Ponzi scheme, old man Preet just used those words to get attention.
FBI definition: “Ponzi” schemes promise high financial returns or dividends not available through traditional investments. Instead of investing the funds of victims, however, the con artist pays "dividends" to initial investors using the funds of subsequent investors. The scheme generally falls apart when the operator flees with all of the proceeds or when a sufficient number of new investors cannot be found to allow the continued payment of "dividends."
For those of you that think it's a ponzi scheme, feel free to claim your losses on your tax return.
IRS Commissioner Douglas Shulman told Congress the new guidelines are for taxpayers who have suffered losses from Ponzi investment schemes such as the massive Madoff swindle. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/17/irs-madoff-victims-tax-re_n_175713.html
FBI definition: “Ponzi” schemes promise high financial returns or dividends not available through traditional investments. Instead of investing the funds of victims, however, the con artist pays "dividends" to initial investors using the funds of subsequent investors. The scheme generally falls apart when the operator flees with all of the proceeds or when a sufficient number of new investors cannot be found to allow the continued payment of "dividends."
For those of you that think it's a ponzi scheme, feel free to claim your losses on your tax return.
IRS Commissioner Douglas Shulman told Congress the new guidelines are for taxpayers who have suffered losses from Ponzi investment schemes such as the massive Madoff swindle. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/17/irs-madoff-victims-tax-re_n_175713.html
Charade You Are
you can call me Frost
Silver Level
jaymfc
R.I.P DJ & Buck
Loyaler
no offense taken
tarnished ? yes ! but guilty ? still waiting till final outcome before judging myself although it doesn't look good at this time . I do believe in my heart that the Ferguson family and the Lederer family including their sons are very honorable people . jmoenough that investors would be stupid not to buy it IMO
3 or 4 hundred million could be made back easily it's a license to print money .esp if crap like this is true
do we at least know this is fact or could it be more BS ?
Last edited:
Dorkus Malorkus
HELLO INTERNET
Silver Level
it's in the complaint and i doubt the doj are making numbers up.
Charade You Are
you can call me Frost
Silver Level
From the complaint: "Between April 2007 and April 2011, Full Tilt Poker and its board distributed $443,860,529.89 to board members and owners. Bitar received approximately $41 million, Lederer received approximately $42 million, and Furst received approximately $11.7 million. Ferguson was allocated approximately $87,486,182.87 in distributions, and received at least $25 million, with the remaining balance characterized as “owed” to him. "
No dividends were paid after Black Friday and the dividends were paid out over 4 years.
From the FBI web site: "The matters announced today are being handled by the U.S. Attorney’s Office’s Asset Forfeiture and Complex Frauds units. Assistant U.S. Attorneys Sharon Cohen Levin, Michael D. Lockard and Jason H. Cowley are in charge of the civil money laundering and forfeiture action, and Assistant U.S. Attorneys Arlo Devlin-Brown, Nicole Friedlander and Niketh Velamoor are in charge of the criminal case.
The allegations contained in the proposed amended complaint are merely accusations."
No dividends were paid after Black Friday and the dividends were paid out over 4 years.
From the FBI web site: "The matters announced today are being handled by the U.S. Attorney’s Office’s Asset Forfeiture and Complex Frauds units. Assistant U.S. Attorneys Sharon Cohen Levin, Michael D. Lockard and Jason H. Cowley are in charge of the civil money laundering and forfeiture action, and Assistant U.S. Attorneys Arlo Devlin-Brown, Nicole Friedlander and Niketh Velamoor are in charge of the criminal case.
The allegations contained in the proposed amended complaint are merely accusations."
Last edited:
ALL IN CLUBS
Legend
Silver Level
What a bunch of crooks , how can they sleep at night knowing they fc****k so many people out of there winnings after they made so much money on rake and Buy-ins it just pisses me off those greedy B***^&*RDs they have no guilty conscious .
Poker Orifice
FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
I Agree!! How dare they rip off everyone like that. Grabbin' over $300mil & screwin' the players the way they did.... it's sickening. Yup.. how dare the DoJ do all that. They didn't even have to set up the co., develop the software, run massive marketting campaigns, etc. etc. The rotten bas___s!!!
" so many people out of there winnings "
... not just 'winnings', we're talkin' about player's deposits. Players who don't even reside in the U.S. but still having their funds seized. It's a joke!
C
cAPSLOCK
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
It might be a little off topic Poker Orifice... but I'll bite a little. I am going to make a series of simple statements that lay out how I feel about your post as clearly as possible.
1. I think the US laws regarding poker are horrible and would like to see online poker fully legalized and very gently regulated in my country.
2. Full Tilt (and the others) were breaking the laws of my country in the way they were operating here. And pretty much any US poker player who could ever make a withdrawal was smart enough to know putting money on those sites was risky. I have no reason to believe Canadians are any dumber. ;P
3. pokerstars did what they said they would do. They segregated player funds. I got a check from them.
4. FTP did not do this. They gave money to the owners and once the DOJ (rightfully... I am sorry but it was rightfully) siezed their operating accounts there was no way AND NO MONEY to release for them to pay back their players like Stars did.
Conclusion: Whether or not you agree with my county's actions against the sites it is FULL TILT and not the US DOJ who is responsible for spending the money from player deposits.
Period.
1. I think the US laws regarding poker are horrible and would like to see online poker fully legalized and very gently regulated in my country.
2. Full Tilt (and the others) were breaking the laws of my country in the way they were operating here. And pretty much any US poker player who could ever make a withdrawal was smart enough to know putting money on those sites was risky. I have no reason to believe Canadians are any dumber. ;P
3. pokerstars did what they said they would do. They segregated player funds. I got a check from them.
4. FTP did not do this. They gave money to the owners and once the DOJ (rightfully... I am sorry but it was rightfully) siezed their operating accounts there was no way AND NO MONEY to release for them to pay back their players like Stars did.
Conclusion: Whether or not you agree with my county's actions against the sites it is FULL TILT and not the US DOJ who is responsible for spending the money from player deposits.
Period.
alaskabill
Legend
Silver Level
With all due respect Poker Orfice ( and I really do mean that) I have to +1 what caps lock said.
All of the money seized pre Black Friday was from processors handling US money. If Full Tilt had done their job right this never should have affected ROW funds in the slightest. Instead Full Tilt decided to honor deposits that they couldn't collect and we know where that led.
Post Black Friday, if Full Tilt had player funds on hand and segregated they could have paid back US players in a week or two and gotten any frozen money from ROW players released by clearly showing that it wasn't US generated revenue. We know this because it is exactly what poker stars has done. They even got more money unfrozen within the last couple of weeks.
Full Tilt chose to not segregate funds. Full Tilt chose to pay out virtually all of the company's operating capital and player balances in the form of dividends to owners. Full Tilt chose to lie to the AGCC and cook the books.
I am frustrated with what my government has done, but if Full Tilt had been running their business properly US players would be paid and ROW players would still be playing on the site.
If I can quote a movie line here: "These are the facts and they are not in dispute."
All of the money seized pre Black Friday was from processors handling US money. If Full Tilt had done their job right this never should have affected ROW funds in the slightest. Instead Full Tilt decided to honor deposits that they couldn't collect and we know where that led.
Post Black Friday, if Full Tilt had player funds on hand and segregated they could have paid back US players in a week or two and gotten any frozen money from ROW players released by clearly showing that it wasn't US generated revenue. We know this because it is exactly what poker stars has done. They even got more money unfrozen within the last couple of weeks.
Full Tilt chose to not segregate funds. Full Tilt chose to pay out virtually all of the company's operating capital and player balances in the form of dividends to owners. Full Tilt chose to lie to the AGCC and cook the books.
I am frustrated with what my government has done, but if Full Tilt had been running their business properly US players would be paid and ROW players would still be playing on the site.
If I can quote a movie line here: "These are the facts and they are not in dispute."
Charade You Are
you can call me Frost
Silver Level
Canadians had no reason to worry about their funds, they were playing on a licensed, legal site. Even if the sites were fined (and only deposits were covered by the UIGEA) there was no reason to believe foreign funds were in jeopardy.
While the payments to owners may have been excessive, they were not illegal and occurred BEFORE black friday. We will never know whether it was right or not. The DOJ bets on all their seizures never seeing the light of the courtroom.
THEY BOTH ARE. DOJ claims they have over 300M of FTP funds, since a majority were seized from payment processors and by setting up fake payment processors, there is no doubt those funds are PLAYERS FUNDS.
Period.
alaskabill
Legend
Silver Level
The only problem here is that any seizures that the DOJ did pre Black Friday were seizures from processors handling us players funds. If FTP hadn't been looting players funds than ROW players funds would never have been affected. Its the same with the Black Friday freezing of money. The only money that the DOJ is attempting to lay claim to is revenue generated for the sites by US players. If FTP segregates the funds than no ROW deposits would be at risk. Also, FTP's decision to credit deposits that they couldn't collect was insane.
I am not trying to apologize for or defend the DOJ but I think some people are misunderstanding what exactly they have done. They made no attempt to seize ROW players funds only money tied to US activities. The main problem is that FTP had paid out all of their capital including players funds.
If, for some reason, ROW players had tried a mass withdrawal they never would have had the funds available even if Black Friday hadn't occurred. The money from your accounts was largely gone before April 15th due to the 400 million in "dividends" paid out.
FTP had already stolen and spent your money, the DOJ's actions just brought it to light.
alaskabill
Legend
Silver Level
Here is a quick link.
Some of the indicted bankers and processors are challenging the DOJ's position.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanv...n-on-online-poker-with-powerful-legal-papers/
Good for them. They are putting up a fight.
Some of the indicted bankers and processors are challenging the DOJ's position.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanv...n-on-online-poker-with-powerful-legal-papers/
Good for them. They are putting up a fight.