Random Number Generators (RNG)- Are they really that random?

mina271

mina271

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How far you can trust the poker sites or how certain their rng is, I can't say I have no evidence that confirms one or the other, but what I know is that if I am convinced that one or the other poker site can not be trusted then play i not there. I sometimes see people at the tables starting to say the site is rigged and so on, I ask them sometimes and why are you still playing here. It's always the people who lose who say something like that. I've never seen anyone win and then say that. It's also easier to say that the site is rigged than trying to improve your game.
 
terryk

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The cards come the same for everyone,,,,can't get any more "fair" then that. :deal: pay attention and you can win too!
 
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kanycta99

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This is a program of random numbers. but a program cannot be random. at the core of any program is an algorithm. i cannot believe in the randomness of something made by man
 
YYfourU

YYfourU

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The fact this dispute even exists, means somethings not right or the same.
 
Chief talking bull

Chief talking bull

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It doesn't seem like it does it. So many times it feels like a set up. Then again when you play with a real deck you still get bad beats and big hands. I think the only difference is that you just see so many more hands per hour online verses live poker that it just seems unreal.
 
davidsincara

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RNG are manmade RNG.... A.I. needs to makeup a new RNG
 
Herkstwin

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Reputable poker sites are governed by regulators in their jurisdictions. Sites must meet the standards prescribed and be certified accordingly. Gaming Labs International is one organization that certifies poker and other online gaming software.
As others have posted, there are only 52 cards in a deck. There can only be so many random options for each successive card dealt.
To think that a poker site is pre-programed to suck out on your monster hand is paranoia. With only 47 cards to choose from on the turn and 46 on the river, anything can happen - and does.
Personally, I would be more afraid of playing live with a dealer like Shin Lin!
 
R

research

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The most common conspiracy theory is, that in cash games poker sites earn more rake, if the pots get big, so they have an interest in creating cooler situations or "action boards". This month I actually played a few short cash game sessions on PokerStars, so we can look into my tracker and see, how many of these crazy "action hands", there actually was. I played 299 hands at 10NL, and I was all in..... drum beats.... zero times.

Whats at work here, as with all the other conspiracy theories, is typically confirmation bias. It sucks to lose a big pot, and therefore we remember those set-ups and action flops, where for instance we flop a set, and someone else flops a combodraw, and then they get there on the river, and we lose our whole stack. But we dont remember all those hands, where we won or lost a small pot without showdown. And once the idea has been planted, that maybe its rigged, we will see every single big pot, even those we are not involved in, as evidence of our theory.

In tournaments the poker site dont rake each pot, but this does not stop the conspiracy theorists either. So for tournaments they have developed "the big stack always win" theory. This is based on the idea, that if players bust faster from tournaments, they might end up playing more tournaments, which will then earn the poker site more rake. And once again confirmation bias kicks in, so that every single time someone with KK is busted from the tournament by someone with A5, its seem as "proff" of the theory.


Unfortunately you make a series of assumptions, wrongly and then use an example that is an example of the type of bias you accuse the "losers" of exhibiting. Let's set the facts right shall we?
1: I am not losing online, in fact I have taken thousands of dollars out of these sites over the years. Therefore I am NOT a loser player complaining because I lose, I win, consistently. Just because I win doesn't mean I ignore the signs of something wrong. I can predict 90% of the time when the so called RNG is acting in a way that is not kosher and can avoid those.
2: Cherry picking. I base my observations not just on MY hands but on EVERYONES at the table I am playing. I ONLY compile stats on hands that go to showdown so cards are shown.
3: how many of these crazy "action hands", there actually was. I played 299 hands at 10NL, and I was all in..... drum beats.... zero times.... your very own example of observational bias, you used YOUR hands, unless you were playing solitaire you need to account for other peoples hands at the table, just because YOU didn't go allin didn't mean someone else hasn't. All this is proof of is that you played like a rock.

It is this kind of loose "proof" that it isn't rigged that exacerbates the problem. Until people independently verify things don't just jump in with poorly exercised "proofs".
 
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Mariadelaluz

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I feel it ramdam mechanically.
 
Ice Wolf

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Randomly gives winning hands to loose players and chip stack leaders, all about that rake.
 
YYfourU

YYfourU

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Like I said before, just the fact of people noticing a difference means something is different.
 
blueskies

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Unfortunately you make a series of assumptions, wrongly and then use an example that is an example of the type of bias you accuse the "losers" of exhibiting. Let's set the facts right shall we?
1: I am not losing online, in fact I have taken thousands of dollars out of these sites over the years. Therefore I am NOT a loser player complaining because I lose, I win, consistently. Just because I win doesn't mean I ignore the signs of something wrong. I can predict 90% of the time when the so called RNG is acting in a way that is not kosher and can avoid those.
2: Cherry picking. I base my observations not just on MY hands but on EVERYONES at the table I am playing. I ONLY compile stats on hands that go to showdown so cards are shown.
3: how many of these crazy "action hands", there actually was. I played 299 hands at 10NL, and I was all in..... drum beats.... zero times.... your very own example of observational bias, you used YOUR hands, unless you were playing solitaire you need to account for other peoples hands at the table, just because YOU didn't go allin didn't mean someone else hasn't. All this is proof of is that you played like a rock.

It is this kind of loose "proof" that it isn't rigged that exacerbates the problem. Until people independently verify things don't just jump in with poorly exercised "proofs".

That's the norm here. If you think something's not right then certain people automatically assume you are a loser blaming non-random RNG for your own ineptitude. And the other foolish thing I have seen certain people say is if so and so is rigged, why do you continue to play there. It's as if it's above their heads that it's possible to get screwed by the "RNG" and still win. If you are a good player, you can still win but should you be happy that you are winning at say, half the rate than you should?

I have never lost my bankroll. I have consistently won at every site I have played at and yet I have trouble beating 2NL at a certain magical site. Hands going in behind win at an incredible rate. Sure, it could be that I just ran super lucky over hundreds of thousands of hands at the other sites where when I got it in good the hand held up at a rate similar to actual odds.

I am in the US so I cannot play at the sites I used to play at (to answer the question of then why I dont I play at the site I won at).

Anyway, I now mostly play 10NL at BOL where I don't get any rakeback instead of the magical site, where I do get rakeback.

And yes, I am winning at BOL too.
 
CDNMAN 42

CDNMAN 42

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Random??

What do you peeps think about RNG ? Are they really that random when you can almost predict e.g. if some-one is holding an Ace you will see at least 1 hit the table , or 2 cards same suit, if the flop drops 2 cards of the same suit as theirs then the turn or river will bring the flush. I know it's not 100% of the time, but very close, imho.
IMO the Randomness of the RNG applies differently to different levels of players and different levels of Bankroll...Specifically if you are a low level player Bankroll of $50 or less you will run into many more weird outcomes at least on poker stars, yet if your Bankroll increases to above $100 suddenly those weird experiences happen not at all or much less....by weird I mean things like getting AA being jammed calling and losing to 26 offsuit who flops 345 and your AA and your chips are gone...happens a lot on PS..Obviously there are algorithms designed upon your $$$ value...:):):)
 
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Follow these steps to test the RNG.:deal: 1-Have a lot of mental balance, :eek:2-a lot of patience:mad:3-rigid bankroll administration:icon_sant4-reading the opponent, :confused:5-ability to bluff.:cool: If you do all this and you can't make a profit, then you can be sure it's not random.:angel::deal:
 
puzzlefish

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IMO the Randomness of the RNG applies differently to different levels of players and different levels of Bankroll...Specifically if you are a low level player Bankroll of $50 or less you will run into many more weird outcomes at least on Poker Stars, yet if your Bankroll increases to above $100 suddenly those weird experiences happen not at all or much less....by weird I mean things like getting AA being jammed calling and losing to 26 offsuit who flops 345 and your AA and your chips are gone...happens a lot on PS..Obviously there are algorithms designed upon your $$$ value...:):):)
Are you speculating with this or have you actually observed the run-outs disappear with a bankroll over $100? Because I can assure you it's not the case in 888.
 
1

1984

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short answer: no

they are programmed algorythms, you can easily recognize the differences if you play in different rooms....
 
A

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Without a random number generator, poker would be boring to play.
 
blueskies

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When this went fourway all in preflop and the hole cards were shown. I turned to my wife and said watch A5 win. Before I finished my sentence,two 5s on the flop and we both laughed. (This is a freeroll)

Do I know ACR or what? It's very hard to win there by playing proper poker.

I only play freerolls there now. They do offer a lot of freerolls which is great. The toughest opponent there is the RNG. I win at cash games consistently every site that I've played on. Not on ACR though.
 

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Schijtlijster

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When this went fourway all in preflop and the hole cards were shown. I turned to my wife and said watch A5 win. Before I finished my sentence,two 5s on the flop and we both laughed. (This is a freeroll)

Do I know ACR or what? It's very hard to win there by playing proper poker.

I only play freerolls there now. They do offer a lot of freerolls which is great. The toughest opponent there is the RNG. I win at cash games consistently every site that I've played on. Not on ACR though.



Mathematically it is not weird the A5 will win. Only two chances on a Q, only one on an A, and two on a K. THREE chances on a 5, but yes, you do need two fives, but the chance on a third five is equal to the chance on K or Q. Pure coincidence. Nothing bad going on.
 
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D

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It's all fixed, but I still have fun playing
 
WickedFRoST

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Yes any RNG is more than random enough for any game even tho some mathematician is sure to proclaim that it isn't TRULY random... oh so what, it's close enough. :)

Here's what people who think poker is rigged are missing...

...there are only 52 cards in a deck, and thus, even the rarest event in the game is gonna happen fairly frequently because 52 is not a very big number at all.

Just for example... why do you think casinos stopped dealing single-deck blackjack and went to the ridiculous six-deck or eight-deck "shoe" to deal the cards from? It's because 52 cards didn't provide enough randomness. If a lot of the tens in the deck happened to randomly end up in the bottom half of the deck, sharp blackjack players could take advantage of the casino and win a lot of money by increasing their bet sizes when they saw the situation developing... it's called "card-counting" in the industry, I'm sure everybody has heard of it by now... But the point is, 52 cards is the reason why so many players think "poker is rigged". If poker could use 6 or 8 decks, it probably would... but it can't, so we're stuck with only 52 cards to provide ALL our randomness...


While I definitely believe in randomness of RNGs, I cannot agree with you on the fact that 52 cards is not enough to be random. In fact, the total number of all possible combinations of shuffling a 52-card deck is 52! (! Stands for factorial).
This number is so great, that one might safely say that up to date there gave not been shuffled all possible combinations in the whole world.
 
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Mathematically it is not weird the A5 will win. Only two chances on a Q, only one on an A, and two on a K. THREE chances on a 5, but yes, you do need two fives, but the chance on a third five is equal to the chance on K or Q. Pure coincidence. Nothing bad going on.

And As5d can also make a wheel straight or the nut flush on a 4-spade board. Actually in this specific 4-way all-in, As5d was not in much worse shape than the two AK hands, because so many of the aces and kings were dead. Here are the exact equities from Equilap:

As5d: 9,78%
QdQs: 64,01%
AcKh: 14,17%
AdKs: 12,04%

Note that the two AKs have different equities. This is because, AcKh has two live flushdraws, while AdKs only has one. And of course something with a 9,78% likelyhood actually happening is not proof, that the card generation is rigged. Claims like these are just silly, and I dont know, if people making them are actually taking it serious themselfes? Its like saying, that if it rains on average 3 days per month, and it ends up raining the day, you are getting married, then that must be some kind of conspiracy against you :)
 
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rigged?

I do believe some if not all sites are rigged but I never deposit money I win from freerolls and then play in games. If you think about it , sites make money from the rake so they want the money to keep changing hands , not just go to the best player ,or else poor players would get lose and leave.
 
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