What do you peeps think about RNG ? Are they really that random when you can almost predict e.g. if some-one is holding an Ace you will see at least 1 hit the table , or 2 cards same suit, if the flop drops 2 cards of the same suit as theirs then the turn or river will bring the flush. I know it's not 100% of the time, but very close, imho.

If you want to become a winning poker player, you need to focus your attention on your decision making rather than distractions like, how the board runs out. Best of luck at the tables

on Pokerstars it feels like every 2nd hand has to be an action flop, doesnt feel random at all...

Originally Posted by TuesdayBlue

What do you peeps think about RNG ? Are they really that random when you can almost predict e.g. if some-one is holding an Ace you will see at least 1 hit the table , or 2 cards same suit, if the flop drops 2 cards of the same suit as theirs then the turn or river will bring the flush. I know it's not 100% of the time, but very close, imho.

I played a lot of hands at one time. I can say that I have seen incredible situations on the table. I thought for a long time that it was twisted and this is specifically to take away my money. Then I became older and smarter and came to the conclusion that there is no deception. Anything can happen, and that's why it's random. To win MTT or wherever you need to have a special day of luck and add a little skill and tricks like bluffing.

Originally Posted by TuesdayBlue

What do you peeps think about RNG ? Are they really that random when you can almost predict e.g. if some-one is holding an Ace you will see at least 1 hit the table , or 2 cards same suit, if the flop drops 2 cards of the same suit as theirs then the turn or river will bring the flush. I know it's not 100% of the time, but very close, imho.

I'm near 100% sure that this isn't true, because PT4's luck bell curve tells me so. Some days I run good, some days I run bad. It's a random walk. The key thing is not even caring what cards come down- and when I'm multitabling, I often don't even see the turn and river if stacks have gone in. And if you can genuinely predict cards, then PokerStars side bet feature would be insanely profitable for you (note: you can't, so it won't be).

I dunno, but I've definitely seen some patterns in all the rooms I play. They don't last all the time, I'm not sure the exact length, but if you're playing (or watching) a lot of tables and paying attention, you can notice some reoccurring things happening for a while, and then things go back to "normal" or to another "set of patterns". I even made some of my decisions based on these patterns (which were bonkers according to poker theory) that turned out to be correct, as long as the pattern continued.

I know it's a taboo topic and an ultimate fish talk, which is looked down upon by the vast majority to say the least, but you can't ignore some obvious anomalies, if you pay enough attention to notice them.

There is no such random in informatics ..there is one kind of algorithm bases on some formulas

I prefer live poker for that specific reason. Although I'm not that good with technology to have proof, I don't think the RNG is completely random. There must be some sort of algorithm, if only one person wins all the time the others would quit playing. I only play ocasionally online but I have seen weird things happen both in cash and tournaments. So I personally don't think the RNG is random.

It is quite obvious to me that there are more than a few online players that play hands that most would frown at. Noticed a player with a 43 unsuited deliberately jamming it in to beat both pocket AA and KK in one hand.

Seems like he knows he was holding the nuts and can predict the outcome.

Algorithm designed and written out in a program created by a human.
Think that will never be as random as live poker.

Speaking from a STEM background, I don't believe there is a truly random RNG (yet). I have heard that many computers actually make use of user inputs (i.e. mouse movements and maybe time between keyboard clicks) to modify their RNG's to increase their 'randomness'.

That being said, current RNG's are definitely sufficient for online poker to approximate a shuffled deck. It would take a pretty strong computer with a lot of data regarding the frequency of each card being dealt to figure out any inconsistencies in a single RNG. I'd be a bit surprised if online poker rooms didn't have multiple RNG algorithms's that they switch between.

Confirmation bias is also something to consider here. Our brains are hard-wired to remember the bad beats more than the good ones, by way of a survival mechanism. Evolutionarily speaking we tend to remember bad experiences more, simply because it used to be bad experiences = someone dying. So it can seem like the game is rigged when it isn't (I sure as hell remember holding KK's with an ace on the flop more than the times I have an over-pair or flopped a set).

That being said, one could always try analyzing hand histories to look for inconsistencies, if one was so inclined.

I will not rule out anything until proven otherwise.Sure, there are weirdness online.

Yes any RNG is more than random enough for any game even tho some mathematician is sure to proclaim that it isn't TRULY random... oh so what, it's close enough. :-)

Here's what people who think poker is rigged are missing...

...there are only 52 cards in a deck, and thus, even the rarest event in the game is gonna happen fairly frequently because 52 is not a very big number at all.

Just for example... why do you think casinos stopped dealing single-deck blackjack and went to the ridiculous six-deck or eight-deck "shoe" to deal the cards from? It's because 52 cards didn't provide enough randomness. If a lot of the tens in the deck happened to randomly end up in the bottom half of the deck, sharp blackjack players could take advantage of the casino and win a lot of money by increasing their bet sizes when they saw the situation developing... it's called "card-counting" in the industry, I'm sure everybody has heard of it by now... But the point is, 52 cards is the reason why so many players think "poker is rigged". If poker could use 6 or 8 decks, it probably would... but it can't, so we're stuck with only 52 cards to provide ALL our randomness...

Originally Posted by fundiver199

If you want to become a winning poker player, you need to focus your attention on your decision making rather than distractions like, how the board runs out. Best of luck at the tables

I agree. doesn`t matter how RNG works, what IS matter how you play your game!

RNG is not so random on a certain couple of sites. There is no way ACR is a legit site. Prove me wrong

RNGs are 85% random according a study from a prestigious mathematics institution.

Thank you , there are some very interesting replies.

Hello. I believe they are but I strongly feel that algorithms are not truly random. For example, recently on one of our favored sites, bubble time and the first player hadd 55, second 77, and the one with the most chips had KK. The flop went down with one king, not wet. The 1st went all in, followed by the second and third. The third player having the most chips by far had KK and wiped the other two out. It was not the play of those folks, it is the odds of that occurring and seemingly the one with most chips wins. That appears to not be random, but an algorithm which "sets" people up to lose.

Some idiots that like playing splash games , for penies or more expensive , to get a ticket , they show their talent of RNG read and then RNG maniipulation , and they are doing this on purpose , not just only to win,,but to try break some balls in the procedure . Then you see how random RNG can be ....... Not even KK or AA can defeat these players or the leaks of RNG . if poker rooms wanted they could invent or use the most progressed and advanced RNG , totally random , a game of luck , but they donot want this , they want to play games with the players' pockets , minds and mentality , it's clear as crystal . Regs like the fact that many ways to play hand are fixed , menaing they know them and they win towards wrong betting lines , they just try to become better thieves with cr** hands , better bingo RNG manipulators , they watch their masters in twitch or live videos , no pity for them , tag and crash .

Originally Posted by danoscar

Hello. I believe they are but I strongly feel that algorithms are not truly random. For example, recently on one of our favored sites, bubble time and the first player hadd 55, second 77, and the one with the most chips had KK. The flop went down with one king, not wet. The 1st went all in, followed by the second and third. The third player having the most chips by far had KK and wiped the other two out. It was not the play of those folks, it is the odds of that occurring and seemingly the one with most chips wins. That appears to not be random, but an algorithm which "sets" people up to lose.

Totally agree seen this happen so many times especially with the chip leader.

Originally Posted by TuesdayBlue

What do you peeps think about RNG ? Are they really that random when you can almost predict e.g. if some-one is holding an Ace you will see at least 1 hit the table , or 2 cards same suit, if the flop drops 2 cards of the same suit as theirs then the turn or river will bring the flush. I know it's not 100% of the time, but very close, imho.

RNG is as random as it can get even tho you may think that it’s rigged it’s probably because you might have encountered bad beats. We tend to remember our bad beats so well that we almost forget all the good runs we have had. However you might be right it could be rigged depending on what platform you play on so I would suggest you to play on well know sites to ensure your security.

All I have to say is that if you see that it isn't random, then believe in what you are seeing. All these same arguments keep being made to justify it. You either believe them or you don't. If you don't, then stop depositing to your online poker sites.

A lot of times I feel as if the hands are dealt with the intention to trap someone by giving them, for example, a flush, with their opponent holding a full house.

Originally Posted by puzzlefish

All I have to say is that if you see that it isn't random, then believe in what you are seeing. All these same arguments keep being made to justify it. You either believe them or you don't. If you don't, then stop depositing to your online poker sites.

Or alternatively keep playing but limit your exposure. Build bankrolls via free rolls and tickets won. Someone can be somewhat skeptical, yet not have to make deposits at all and keep playing.

This is particularly applicable to those who love poker and have no choice but to play on line.

Originally Posted by digdug0037

RNG is not so random on a certain couple of sites. There is no way ACR is a legit site. Prove me wrong

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. So....prove yourself right?

Originally Posted by tomk7788

RNGs are 85% random according a study from a prestigious mathematics institution.

I'd actually be pretty interested in reading about that, do you have a citation I could read?

Originally Posted by danoscar

Hello. I believe they are but I strongly feel that algorithms are not truly random. For example, recently on one of our favored sites, bubble time and the first player hadd 55, second 77, and the one with the most chips had KK. The flop went down with one king, not wet. The 1st went all in, followed by the second and third. The third player having the most chips by far had KK and wiped the other two out. It was not the play of those folks, it is the odds of that occurring and seemingly the one with most chips wins. That appears to not be random, but an algorithm which "sets" people up to lose.

Again, like I said earlier, it's easier to remember the times these improbable (but possible) situations occur. A one-off event is not evidence of manipulation, you'd need a large sample size of events to demonstrate these sites aren't using proper RNG algorithms.

Obviously, I'm not saying it's impossible for them to manipulate things. I'm simply stating that there are ways to prove (or disprove) it, but recalling rare/unlikely occurrences like that isn't the way to do it.

have you done this analysis in real games? think well how absurd the logic in real games, when you do this analysis tell me here

I dont think there that random. If you have a pair you get a straight cards out there. You get a straight you get flush cards out there. It happrns every time. So how random is that?

Originally Posted by TuesdayBlue

Thank you , there are some very interesting replies.

And a nice reminder that the fish are a plenty!

Originally Posted by danoscar

. It was not the play of those folks, it is the odds of that occurring and seemingly the one with most chips wins. That appears to not be random, but an algorithm which "sets" people up to lose.

Originally Posted by antonis32123

Some idiots that like playing splash games , for penies or more expensive , to get a ticket , they show their talent of RNG read and then RNG maniipulation , and they are doing this on purpose , not just only to win,,but to try break some balls in the procedure . Then you see how random RNG can be ....... Not even KK or AA can defeat these players or the leaks of RNG . if poker rooms wanted they could invent or use the most progressed and advanced RNG , totally random , a game of luck , but they donot want this , they want to play games with the players' pockets , minds and mentality , it's clear as crystal . Regs like the fact that many ways to play hand are fixed , menaing they know them and they win towards wrong betting lines , they just try to become better thieves with cr** hands , better bingo RNG manipulators , they watch their masters in twitch or live videos , no pity for them , tag and crash .

Question for you both:

If you honestly believe this... why would you EVER bother to play poker online???!
Personally I think that would be ludicrous.

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

Question for you both:

If you honestly believe this... why would you EVER bother to play poker online???!
Personally I think that would be ludicrous.

Sadomasochism

Originally Posted by bkn77

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. So....prove yourself right?




I'd actually be pretty interested in reading about that, do you have a citation I could read?

It was an article I read that was posted on twoplustwo.com 2 or 3 years ago.

As far as i know it is not possible for a program to produce real random numbers. After playing for over 5 years every day online tourneys i can say for sure there is nothing random there.
Someone mentioned things about suited rag hands and how hit the flop i confirm 100%. Regs know it and even call all ins pre with those hands and hit vs aa etc. Also how many times u hit 2 pair flop but is not good, or not good by the river?

Originally Posted by TuesdayBlue

What do you peeps think about RNG ?

They are random numbers, save yourself a lot of bullshit, don't follow the rigged morons down that path.

Originally Posted by antonis32123

Sadomasochism

From watching some of your play, I thought it was other reasons tbh.
Not meaning to sound like an a55 here... but I'd suggest attempting to think otherwise & put the thought into learning the game instead. You might just be pleasantly surprised.

Originally Posted by Zorba

They are random numbers, save yourself a lot of bullshit, don't follow the rigged morons down that path.

Thank you very much for your insight, and believe me, I won't go down that path. I'm going to play the cards as dealt and throw in a bit of bluffing here and there, as suggested previously. Good luck on the felts Zorba

Originally Posted by fundiver199

If you want to become a winning poker player, you need to focus your attention on your decision making rather than distractions like, how the board runs out. Best of luck at the tables

Thank you beautifully said.

they are random but they have a code. if you dont know the code that is right you will no be able to predict it. You need to think poker in a long time game where if you are making this right in the long run you will be profitible if some poker site is making you unsure about the randomness of the code you should not be playing it.

once doubt one poker site because I got a lot of badbeats. then I got all my money from there and end of history.

Let's start with this...

Coding a Random Number Generator (RNG) for a Texas Hold'em Game has to be one of the simplest coding projects ever....

So why would any site just not do this? Hmmm... brain working....putting my business owner hat on...

Well, perhaps... just speculating... perhaps really talented poker players are bad for business? If more talented / more experienced poker players are constantly beating the crap (and the money) out of newer / less experienced players / customers, then perhaps one might be tempted to tweak the RNG to "level the playing field" a bit. Attempt to make the poker game a bit closer to a slots-type game... take a little bit of the skill, out of the outcome. Maybe...

In Summary, I have no idea... just trying to logically think it through...

Best of Luck to Everyone at the Tables,

CheezeWiz

Freerolls with large prizes are often held in 888 Poker, and I suspect that the biggest prizes are won by their bots. I played a lot of them, but I never went beyond the average prizes, almost always players,who showed up with full garbage,moved me. I think these are the 888 Poker bots that take the biggest prizes.

Originally Posted by TuesdayBlue

Thank you very much for your insight, and believe me, I won't go down that path. I'm going to play the cards as dealt and throw in a bit of bluffing here and there, as suggested previously. Good luck on the felts Zorba

Good luck to you too.

https://www.itechlabs.com/certificat...WPN_250915.pdf

Poker is not a sport for a long time, but a business. What good businessman will rely on chance?

Originally Posted by Zorba

Good luck to you too.

https://www.itechlabs.com/certificates/IGSoft/RNG_Certificate_IGSoft_WPN_250915.pdf

Wow!!!

Thank you for posting it. I have never seen, taken time for this kind of research. Is it the newest one? Is it the common, regular way, signed by consultants???

Do you know, what algorithms the ACR and other rooms use, do you know any site what collects data about that? As I just found the above on the tester site:

"
Recommended algorithms

We always encourage the use of well-known public domain PRNG algorithms. A non-exclusive list of such algorithms is given below:


1) Fortuna
2) SHA-1 and SHA-2 based PRNGs (e.g. Java SecureRandom)
3) AES based generators (AES-CTR, AES-KTR,AES-OFB)
4) ISAAC
5) Mersenne Twister (MT)


The last one, MT, is not a cryptographically secure algorithm, however, it is the most widely used in gaming.
"


I am curious about the last one and the last sentence.... if most of the sites use that one, it explains several things for me.

Originally Posted by iamKK

RNG is as random as it can get even tho you may think that it’s rigged it’s probably because you might have encountered bad beats. We tend to remember our bad beats so well that we almost forget all the good runs we have had. However you might be right it could be rigged depending on what platform you play on so I would suggest you to play on well know sites to ensure your security.

If RnG's are random how come I can finish 1500th or better in 3000-5000 person tourneys all the time beating out 3500 people or more regularly but I cant win or get a high cash in 500 man tourneys at the same price point where I only have to beat out 499 players hardly ever? Because if i did that I would be a cash positive winning poker player. And dont tell me its game structure because i am not talking regular compared to hyper turbo tourneys either im talking about the same or very similar structures.

Why are things like the number of people on the site always around the same number despite such a large number of possible players at any one given time from pokerstars pool of players that could be playing and the number of players on the site should be vastly different fron one time to another?

Why is it that I can go to the sit and go sign up page and watch a sit and go be floating around the same given number of players enrolled but not yet full for like 10 - 20 minutes then when I enroll the tourney fills up right away? Because the tourneys run 24/7 and the minute you a paying customer joins the tourney there is money to be taken, yours and the tourney can fill up with fake players, which ends with you losing to a computer generated algorithim. If computer programmers can create random number generators they can create algorithims for the software that have you playing fake players and put into losing scenarios. Look at Blue or Watson as examples of computer intelligence.

Why is it that when you fold hands the board completely misses your hole cards, but when you play your cards you and the other player always have a sweat or outs to a winning hand? Particularly if you are all in pre flop which is more of a gamble. Which gives you that rush of adrenaline chasing down cards and that euphoria when you hit your card which urges you to gamble more. And you get that consellation of "i was so close to hitting my hand and would of won lots of chips. Or every once in a while to keep you interested you hit your hand and get that feeling. But the one common denominator is you lose more than you win.

These are all little logical intricacies that would not be possible if the sites were not rigged in one form or another with computer generated accounts of players, making the site look like its got more traffic than it does, RnG's with algorithims leading to the one common denominator you lose more than you win.

Originally Posted by CheezeWiz

Let's start with this...

Coding a Random Number Generator (RNG) for a Texas Hold'em Game has to be one of the simplest coding projects ever....

So why would any site just not do this? Hmmm... brain working....putting my business owner hat on...

Well, perhaps... just speculating... perhaps really talented poker players are bad for business? If more talented / more experienced poker players are constantly beating the crap (and the money) out of newer / less experienced players / customers, then perhaps one might be tempted to tweak the RNG to "level the playing field" a bit. Attempt to make the poker game a bit closer to a slots-type game... take a little bit of the skill, out of the outcome. Maybe...

In Summary, I have no idea... just trying to logically think it through...

Best of Luck to Everyone at the Tables,

CheezeWiz

Most of the sites look like going that way, the plenty slot type of tourney structures, poker versions. I was searching for players results through few months - only tourney players from micro to high stakes level, but mostly low level -, that was pretty strange. I saw the same or very similar pattern in plenty newbie cases, in the first 3-6 months, they were making profit, after they went down, most of them managed to make it in minus. Of course, I checked just the results, not how they play, but seeing the same pattern in plenty cases are pretty strange, at least. And yes, it is all speculating, but to be honest, nobody will tell the truth from insiders, if it is more or less stands like that.

More than a decade ago, I followed a HS tourney player, who was quiet good for a while, he had plenty final table, several winnings in the2-3K+ High stakes tourneys within a year or a bit longer, in the last 3-4 months, he had unbelievable bad beat series, he just told, probably he did not recognize the variance in online poker on the right way, so he stopped playing for half year. When he re-start, he made a top 3 in the very first tourney, after nothing for half year, so he left the online poker and since that time, it way 10+ years ago, he is still a winning player both cash and tourney, and he declared few years ago that was his best decision in poker. And he was really good, he had top 3 wsop places in the 2000s... when the poker was on the top, not only the online version, but the live one, as well.

Personally just started the year, played few dozen tourneys, but it is still the same, unbelievable how it is rivering the others, even it is not the worst kind when the 1-3 cards for river coming in 30-50% through weeks, does not matter it is played through on the board or pre-flop allins. And yes, I had one tourney like that, but come on, who will play preflop with almost everything for the 1 in million run? and in live it is 1 in a million, but online, it is 1 in 1000 especially, there are the guys whose counting on it and playing for these runs...(i love to lose on the river with QQ or whatever else high pair against the same card+crap kicker, like Q3s, example)
i have found even educational or whatever videos, courses about that. Pretty nuts, in the first week of the year, i 'played' live in myself, all cards are up, so lets see, it comes in live, too.... not even one position got the common online runs.....

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

From watching some of your play, I thought it was other reasons

Other reasons ? Such as ?

Originally Posted by mclaughlinph

If RnG's are random how come I can finish 1500th or better in 3000-5000 person tourneys all the time beating out 3500 people or more regularly but I cant win or get a high cash in 500 man tourneys at the same price point where I only have to beat out 499 players hardly ever? Because if i did that I would be a cash positive winning poker player. And dont tell me its game structure because i am not talking regular compared to hyper turbo tourneys either im talking about the same or very similar structures.

Why are things like the number of people on the site always around the same number despite such a large number of possible players at any one given time from pokerstars pool of players that could be playing and the number of players on the site should be vastly different fron one time to another?

Why is it that I can go to the sit and go sign up page and watch a sit and go be floating around the same given number of players enrolled but not yet full for like 10 - 20 minutes then when I enroll the tourney fills up right away? Because the tourneys run 24/7 and the minute you a paying customer joins the tourney there is money to be taken, yours and the tourney can fill up with fake players, which ends with you losing to a computer generated algorithim. If computer programmers can create random number generators they can create algorithims for the software that have you playing fake players and put into losing scenarios. Look at Blue or Watson as examples of computer intelligence.

Why is it that when you fold hands the board completely misses your hole cards, but when you play your cards you and the other player always have a sweat or outs to a winning hand? Particularly if you are all in pre flop which is more of a gamble. Which gives you that rush of adrenaline chasing down cards and that euphoria when you hit your card which urges you to gamble more. And you get that consellation of "i was so close to hitting my hand and would of won lots of chips. Or every once in a while to keep you interested you hit your hand and get that feeling. But the one common denominator is you lose more than you win.

These are all little logical intricacies that would not be possible if the sites were not rigged in one form or another with computer generated accounts of players, making the site look like its got more traffic than it does, RnG's with algorithims leading to the one common denominator you lose more than you win.

Based on what you have just said I don’t think I will be able to convince you to think that the sites are not rigged or the RNG is really random.

Rule number one when joining online poker is to never play at the same stakes as you do live. Even if you crush 2/5NLHE at your local casino does not mean you can crush 2/5NLHE online. This is because online is much much harder than live and therefore competition is much harder. Same goes for tournament. You should also never look how many people you can beat in tournament, look in terms of %, the # of people means absolutely nothing. Coming in 1500/3000 or even 1500/5000 is coming in 50% to 30% which means you will never be able to cash online since the payout is for 20% of the player pool. And again if you play the same buyin for tournament you will not even get close to 50%. So I hope you really stop blaming the RNG or if sites are rigged and instead try to improve your game.

Just because the number of player pool online is always similar does not mean the site is rigged! There is always a certain change of active players. Take GGPoker for example, there are around 60k active people at 12pm and 150k at 1am. If you are telling me Pokerstars is rigged I really think you should not play poker online because this site has been around for years and is the most trust worthy site out there. If you are concerned about bots which most sites are able to get rid of should not be a problem to good winning players.

SNG are not time based as scheduled tournaments are. As SNG is getting more popular now a days people still like to play the scheduled tournaments since there is a bigger payout.

And I am sorry your 4th paragraph is just garbage. Because if you tell me that you never made a hand after you folded in live poker then you just didn’t play enough poker.

Originally Posted by CheezeWiz

Let's start with this...

Coding a Random Number Generator (RNG) for a Texas Hold'em Game has to be one of the simplest coding projects ever....

Correct... but...

Coding it to favor some players over others & to do so in a manner that goes undetected = not easy at all

Originally Posted by mclaughlinph

If RnG's are random how come I can finish 1500th or better in 3000-5000 person tourneys all the time beating out 3500 people or more regularly but I cant win or get a high cash in 500 man tourneys at the same price point where I only have to beat out 499 players hardly ever? Because if i did that I would be a cash positive winning poker player. And dont tell me its game structure because i am not talking regular compared to hyper turbo tourneys either im talking about the same or very similar structures.

.

So in the 5,000 player tournament you can beat out ~2/3 of the players, finishing in the top 35% or though.... and in a 500 player tourney you think you should therefore finish in the top 0.2% (or a 'high cash'... I'm assuming you mean in the top 1% or 2% (ie final table finish)

Yah.... that makes sense.

With the mathematical ability you're able to express to us here, I'm actually surprised you've even figured out whether 'three of the same' beats 'two pair'

You Tube

Originally Posted by Zorba

Good luck to you too.

https://www.itechlabs.com/certificates/IGSoft/RNG_Certificate_IGSoft_WPN_250915.pdf

That's a pretty looking document, but doesn't tell you anything about how rigorous their testing is or what they use for a measure of "randomness".

I believe they are. But if they are not some people's actions are random so I would try to map this randomness instead of the machine code's randomness.