I got a warning in live poker

[PoKeRFoRNiA]

I didnt know this. But is tournament director correct?

So I was in middle of a tournament. There was a shortstack who had about 12bb. Chip leader in utg who has over 100bb raised to 2.5bb. Short stack in the button called. Flop was AT5. Big stack cbets out for 5bb. Short stack ponders for 5 minutes and then asks the chip leader "how many chips does he have?" In my head, im laughing bcz the chip leader has him covered, so it's easier to count his own stack than the chip leader's. I told the guy "he's got u covered." Dealer told me I'm not allowed to talk. But regardless, short stack ended up going all in and big stack called. Big stack had AT and short stack had A7 and got knocked out. Then tournament director came and gave me a warning saying "you cannot influence the players decisions, especially when you are not in the hand." I responded "the guy was wasting time and then asks stupid question like how much the chip leader has when its irrelevant because its not like he can win the entire chipleader's stack." Tournament director says "It may seem obvious to you but there are people who dont see it as obvious. Let them think for themselves and if they cant think for themselves, its their problem. You have a right to call the clock but you cannot influence someone to think of something."
I apologized to the chip leader but he was cool about it and said he found it funny short stack is wanting count of his stack.
Something new I learned. Does this apply to every poker room in casinos or just Vegas?

 

[CNXRegie]

I didnt know this. But is tournament director correct?

So I was in middle of a tournament. There was a shortstack who had about 12bb. Chip leader in utg who has over 100bb raised to 2.5bb. Short stack in the button called. Flop was AT5. Big stack cbets out for 5bb. Short stack ponders for 5 minutes and then asks the chip leader "how many chips does he have?" In my head, im laughing bcz the chip leader has him covered, so it's easier to count his own stack than the chip leader's. I told the guy "he's got u covered." Dealer told me I'm not allowed to talk. But regardless, short stack ended up going all in and big stack called. Big stack had AT and short stack had A7 and got knocked out. Then tournament director came and gave me a warning saying "you cannot influence the players decisions, especially when you are not in the hand." I responded "the guy was wasting time and then asks stupid question like how much the chip leader has when its irrelevant because its not like he can win the entire chipleader's stack." Tournament director says "It may seem obvious to you but there are people who dont see it as obvious. Let them think for themselves and if they cant think for themselves, its their problem. You have a right to call the clock but you cannot influence someone to think of something."
I apologized to the chip leader but he was cool about it and said he found it funny short stack is wanting count of his stack.
Something new I learned. Does this apply to every poker room in casinos or just Vegas?

I hear you and I have been in a similar spot one time and got called out. The tournament director's response is generally in line with standard poker etiquette and rules, and it applies to most poker rooms, not just in Vegas. It's important to maintain a fair and level playing field for all participants. While you may find a situation obvious, it's crucial to let players make their decisions without external influence. If someone is taking too long, it's usually more appropriate to call for the clock rather than providing unsolicited information.

Different poker rooms may have slight variations in their rules and enforcement, but the principle of not influencing other players' decisions is a common one in the poker community to ensure a fair and competitive game.

 

[YLAN]

Typical what a TD would say. There is a rule on talking during a hand to protect other players, probably not enforced usually that make peeps think there is no such rule. Do you know that telling a player to protect their cards should get you a warning for distracting players? Its the dealer's job? We are obliged sometimes to blurt what is obvious when dealers don't also know what they're doing but the proper thing is to discuss after the hand.

 

[BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch]

That's a bad situation you put yourself into because if the short stack folds and shows and the big stack shows then the Big stack would be furious at you.

And the short stack should be thinking why are you interfering in their read if they have that skill.

Either way you could be playing with more advanced players that see the game a lot different than you do or even if they're beginners then the dealer and the tourn director will tell them if they're doing something wrong that's their job, not yours. A player shouldn't do that.

If a player has a problem with another player then everything goes thru the dealer, then the floor if the dealer can't settle it, not one another at the table.

That's not a home game and not everyone is buddy, buddy.

I can't tell you how many times I would be not at a tourn table but a cash table and I've got a set and the board has draws and I'm looking for a read on people and the person next to me are yelling to someone else at the table about something silly or frivolous and I'm looking to shove or react to their play for a full buyin but these other folks are carrying on so I can't hear the other player on the other side of table or see how they're putting those chips in.

And you also have to understand that the tourn floor folks aren't new and have a lot of experience of not only running a room but actually playing so you should more than likely listen to them.

They're probably trying to teach you something but you have to be willing to listen, lol.

 

[fundiver199]

Each room has their own rules, but this one about not being allowed to talk and "influence action" is pretty common, as I understand it. I personally think, its a ridiculous rule, since table talk is a big part of live poker. I also think, the ruling of this tournament director is particularly ridiculous, because how does it even "influence action", that you inform the guy, the other guy has him covered? If you had not said that, as I understand it, the dealer would have been obliged to make a count, so he knew, how much he had to call. So you just saved everyone some time, but from a very formalistic point of view, you were likely breaking the rules, so the warning was appropriate.

 

[PoKeRFoRNiA]

I would understand if it was like pointing out obvious flush on board with 4 cards of same suit, 4 card straight 3456A where anyone with just 2 or 7 can have a straight, or two pair on board where anyone can easily have a boat, or 3 of a kind on a board where they dont need both cards to have quads, etc. But i didnt think pointing out that shortstack is covered and he's wasting people's time was gonna be influencing his decision.

But regardless, from now on, whenever a hand is going on, probably best to keep my mouth shut and just either chat with someone not regarding the hand or poker as long as my neighbor and i are folded, or listen to my music while observing the table. I should've just asked the dealer to call the clock. Something new I learned. I thought calling the clock is considered rude and lack of etiquette. But i guess option is there for a reason.

At the end, after i got knocked out and went to the tournament desk to pick up my winnings, tournament director told me not to sweat it but do note this for future references. He said he gave me a warning because he wanted players to be aware of this and not disrupt hands in progress and to not influence decisions.

At the end of the day, I had fun, got 6th place, and players at the table were forgiving while some even say they were happy he got knocked out. But I'm glad I learned this now than if I end up doing this mistake at higher buyin tournaments or at events like wsop in the future. I do wish to save up and strictly use tournament winnings from small tournaments and buy into $500-$1k buyin tournament next year. I definitely dont want to make this mistake.

 

[AzdajaD]

I told the guy "he's got u covered." Dealer told me I'm not allowed to talk.

I have a problem with this - "not allowed to talk"...pfffff

Ont. I don't know does this apply to every poker room in casinos or just Vegas?! I wasn't in such a situation...

 

[YLAN]

just either chat with someone not regarding the hand or poker as long as my neighbor and i are folded

That should not be allowed either since it could distract players on the hand & they could complain. I see it implemented strictly only when a player is all-in so many may get confused on the rules. You may be allowed tho, since card is folded, to step away from the table to do that. Just get back to your table when your card is dealt else it be mucked immediately & will be warned if you did not declare a sit-out.

tournament director told me not to sweat it

That is true. TD usually do it just to remind players of rules and not only the "offending" player. It should be understood that their top priority in the game is fairness because when an actual incident happens it certainly ruins the game & there may be no possible reparations to an offended party. There is not much that could be done after the fact. That is why they must prevent such at all costs. Some players do not understand & would vigorously complain, rightly so, because they may be warned on very trivial matters but its all to prevent real bad situations that may happen in the game.

To me those are not "real" warnings on my person but its for a novel reason. Common-sense decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical rules. They may not penalize or disqualify a player on repeated warnings of such trivial matters because that will not be fair too. Cheers!!!

 

[fundiver199]

While I understand the desire of this tournament director to "make an example" I think, he picked a bad spot to do it. It should be obvious, that we are not allowed to say something during a hand, in which we are not participating, which can benefit or harm a player in the hand. For instance its definitely a big no-no to say something like "I would have made a flush", when there are 3 cards to a flush on the board, and someone is considering to call a bet from their opponent. As Mike Matusow did a few years ago in a cash game. And its also a big no-no to give advice to a player like for instance saying "this guy always has it, when he bet full pot", since it violate the "1 player per hand" principle.

But the problem here is the interpretation of, what can actually "influence action". I recently watched some of the 2016 WSOP main event footage, where there was a lot of controversy about Will Kassouf and his table talk. For instance there was a hand, where he was given an orbit penalty for talking, when the action was on his opponent Stacy Matuson. And clearly he was being a bit of an ass to her. But the issue is, that when you watch all the footage, both he and other players like Alec Keating were doing this all the time. So as one of the commentators even said "Wills table talk is ok, until they suddenly tell him, its not?"

And how does it "influence action", that Will say something like "I want you to call", "it will be embassaring to bust on camera" and so on and so forth? As Will say during the hand, the action is on her, and she just need to get on with it, whatever her opponent say. For me this is ridiculous and takes a lot of the fun out of live poker. Of course there is an etiquette issue here also, where its polite to not disturb someone, when they have a big decision to make. But turning it into a rule, where you basically are not allowed to talk, is ridiculous in my opinion. Then we might as well drop live poker all together and only play online.

 

[YLAN]

This video clip got me ROFL!!! He was told not to talk then he started to make gestures!!! ROFL!!! Floor decisions are final.

 

[fundiver199]

This video clip got me ROFL!!! He was told not to talk then he started to make gestures!!! ROFL!!! Floor decisions are final.

Yeah that was kind of a ballsy move

 

[Pokerpoet2]

I didnt know this. But is tournament director correct?

So I was in middle of a tournament. There was a shortstack who had about 12bb. Chip leader in utg who has over 100bb raised to 2.5bb. Short stack in the button called. Flop was AT5. Big stack cbets out for 5bb. Short stack ponders for 5 minutes and then asks the chip leader "how many chips does he have?" In my head, im laughing bcz the chip leader has him covered, so it's easier to count his own stack than the chip leader's. I told the guy "he's got u covered." Dealer told me I'm not allowed to talk. But regardless, short stack ended up going all in and big stack called. Big stack had AT and short stack had A7 and got knocked out. Then tournament director came and gave me a warning saying "you cannot influence the players decisions, especially when you are not in the hand." I responded "the guy was wasting time and then asks stupid question like how much the chip leader has when its irrelevant because its not like he can win the entire chipleader's stack." Tournament director says "It may seem obvious to you but there are people who dont see it as obvious. Let them think for themselves and if they cant think for themselves, its their problem. You have a right to call the clock but you cannot influence someone to think of something."
I apologized to the chip leader but he was cool about it and said he found it funny short stack is wanting count of his stack.
Something new I learned. Does this apply to every poker room in casinos or just Vegas?

The Tournament Director is always right, he deserves the reverence of a God! because when it comes down to it his decision is Final. He was definitely right to give you a warning as you were not involved in the hand and should have kept quiet, and it is not another players responsibility to answer the questions about the stack sizes, even the chip leader didn't have to answer him as it can give away information about his own hand strength if his voice should falter.
Don't take it to Heart though a warning is not too much to worry about, unless you did it again in the same tournament, I was in a Casino with a couple of Friends and one is always playing out of turn in our League games, he was warned by me before we entered the Casino not to play out of turn as it can lead to some serious consequences and ultimately get you banned from playing.
The first time it happened he was warned by the TD. and on the second occasion he had to sit out for 2 hands, on his third he had to sit out for a full rotation of the dealer button, and on the fourth occasion two full rotations of the button with a final warning from the TD that the next time it happened he would be banned from the Tournament, Luckily it never got to that as he had lost so many chips from sitting out, he was forced into an early all-in and lost.
He moaned to me about it but all I could say was "I did warn you before we went in". Live Casino poker games are taken seriously and if you break any rules you can face serious consequences, It is your job to know the rules before playing in a Casino, not theirs to teach you.

 

[Jillychemung]

This is all part of Rule 62 in the TDA. (Item 2, Advise)

62: No Disclosure
Players must protect other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore players, whether in the hand or not, must not:
1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.
One-player-to-a-hand is in effect. Among other things, this rule prohibits showing a hand to or discussing strategy with another player, advisor, or spectator.

Yes your action was inappropriate and IMHO the TD/Floor should use it to remind players to not make comments/statements/observations when not involved in a hand.

Now per Rule 55, as long as the larger stack player had their stacks organized as per Rule 24, the question of 'How many chips' should not be answered by anyone (dealer, floor, players) since there is no all-in.

55: Count of Opponent’s Chip Stack
Players are entitled to a reasonable estimation of opponents’ chip stacks (Rule 24). A player may only request a more precise count if the action is on him and he faces an all-in bet. The all-in player is not required to count; on request the dealer or floor will count it. Accepted action applies (See Rule 49). The visible and countable chipstack rule (Rule 24) greatly helps accuracy in counting.

24: Cards & Chips Kept Visible, Countable, & Manageable. Discretionary Color-Ups
A: Players are entitled to a reasonable estimation of an opponent's chip count; thus chips should be kept in countable stacks. The TDA recommends clean stacks of 20 chips each as a standard. Higher denomination chips must be visible and identifiable at all times.

 

[Mortis]

That's a very borderline call, imo. You know you weren't trying to influence a decision, but one can see how someone might think you were, by trying to get the shortstack to act faster. In this case, the TD is correct, and everything was handled correctly. You stated your case, apologized, and moved on to the next hand.

 

[PoKeRFoRNiA]

I have a problem with this - "not allowed to talk"...pfffff

Ont. I don't know does this apply to every poker room in casinos or just Vegas?! I wasn't in such a situation...

Not allowed to talk was just during that hand. When I mentioned that the chip leader got the short stack covered, dealer immediately told me "please dont talk while the hand is in progress." I immediately put my hands up and said "woah, ok."

 

[Gallarado777]

I don't know how your mouth was closed like this, although your casino probably has this rule because if you're in the hand you can talk to your opponent and there's nothing but you're not in the hand, it's clear and you couldn't talk and prevent players from deciding them, but you apologized and that's fine but his decision and you couldn't influence him in any way so it's fine, but if you watch professional players' tournaments, they're not even in They ask questions in the giveaway and everyone treats them well and does not comment on them

 

[PoKeRFoRNiA]

While I understand the desire of this tournament director to "make an example" I think, he picked a bad spot to do it. It should be obvious, that we are not allowed to say something during a hand, in which we are not participating, which can benefit or harm a player in the hand. For instance its definitely a big no-no to say something like "I would have made a flush", when there are 3 cards to a flush on the board, and someone is considering to call a bet from their opponent. As Mike Matusow did a few years ago in a cash game. And its also a big no-no to give advice to a player like for instance saying "this guy always has it, when he bet full pot", since it violate the "1 player per hand" principle.

But the problem here is the interpretation of, what can actually "influence action". I recently watched some of the 2016 WSOP main event footage, where there was a lot of controversy about Will Kassouf and his table talk. For instance there was a hand, where he was given an orbit penalty for talking, when the action was on his opponent Stacy Matuson. And clearly he was being a bit of an ass to her. But the issue is, that when you watch all the footage, both he and other players like Alec Keating were doing this all the time. So as one of the commentators even said "Wills table talk is ok, until they suddenly tell him, its not?"

And how does it "influence action", that Will say something like "I want you to call", "it will be embassaring to bust on camera" and so on and so forth? As Will say during the hand, the action is on her, and she just need to get on with it, whatever her opponent say. For me this is ridiculous and takes a lot of the fun out of live poker. Of course there is an etiquette issue here also, where its polite to not disturb someone, when they have a big decision to make. But turning it into a rule, where you basically are not allowed to talk, is ridiculous in my opinion. Then we might as well drop live poker all together and only play online.

Now that video, I dont understand. He was involved in the hand, it was heads up. Jack gives him penalty for "influencing the decision". Talking is part of the game when its heads up and youre in the hand. When he says "I want you to call." That's just giving false information of the strength of his hand to the girl to make her think he's got a strong hand. It eventually worked.

People wrote there, Scotty Nguyen's last hand where he won the wsop.
"You call, its all gonna be over baby."

 

[Suns of Beaches]

If i would be the director there i would salute u.

I would then give a light slap to that donk who had the nerve to ask the chipleader how much he had for waisting everyones time and tell him that he will be banned if he continues to do so.

Live poker...🥱

 

[Goggelheimer]

This is all part of Rule 62 in the TDA. (Item 2, Advise)

62: No Disclosure
Players must protect other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore players, whether in the hand or not, must not:
1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.
One-player-to-a-hand is in effect. Among other things, this rule prohibits showing a hand to or discussing strategy with another player, advisor, or spectator.

Yes your action was inappropriate and IMHO the TD/Floor should use it to remind players to not make comments/statements/observations when not involved in a hand.

Now per Rule 55, as long as the larger stack player had their stacks organized as per Rule 24, the question of 'How many chips' should not be answered by anyone (dealer, floor, players) since there is no all-in.

55: Count of Opponent’s Chip Stack
Players are entitled to a reasonable estimation of opponents’ chip stacks (Rule 24). A player may only request a more precise count if the action is on him and he faces an all-in bet. The all-in player is not required to count; on request the dealer or floor will count it. Accepted action applies (See Rule 49). The visible and countable chipstack rule (Rule 24) greatly helps accuracy in counting.

24: Cards & Chips Kept Visible, Countable, & Manageable. Discretionary Color-Ups
A: Players are entitled to a reasonable estimation of an opponent's chip count; thus chips should be kept in countable stacks. The TDA recommends clean stacks of 20 chips each as a standard. Higher denomination chips must be visible and identifiable at all times.

Thanks for this explaining this to us.
Is there an information link for those rules.
So everybody can read those rules and learn more about them.

 

[teepack]

I was in a $1-$3 session over the weekend and made a river bet. The other guy still in the hand starts thinking out loud and going over what hands I might have, when another guy jumps in and reminds him I was the pre-flop raiser. The dealer politely told him to not discuss a live hand. Had never experienced that before but I appreciated the dealer speaking up because I was bluffing and didn't need this other guy to have any help. He ultimately folded.

 

[Luvepoker]

While I can understand why you said that it really should not be done. Anything that could be thought of as an issue they will reprimand you or worse. Like someone above said, if this guy decided to fold and showed the worse hand the chip leaded could have complained.

As for the rule, there are many I think most players don't know or things they do that could cause them an issue. I used to play a lot more live, and I have seen issues brought up that you may not agree with but could have and i have seen cost players. and yes, I got called out on them as well. Some are very innocent and like yours, very minor but..................................

 

[Luvepoker]

I was in a $1-$3 session over the weekend and made a river bet. The other guy still in the hand starts thinking out loud and going over what hands I might have, when another guy jumps in and reminds him I was the pre-flop raiser. The dealer politely told him to not discuss a live hand. Had never experienced that before but I appreciated the dealer speaking up because I was bluffing and didn't need this other guy to have any help. He ultimately folded.

What would have been your reaction if he called you based on that type of comment though?

 

[LaNimmer]

I have played at some poker rooms where the Tournament Director and the dealers run very loose tables with a lot of fist name use back and forth between staff and regulars. Some times I have felt that it was crossing the line. Personally I never talk at the table except to be polite. I prefer a room that runs a tight but friendly game.

 

[TeUnit]

I have seen this happen way too many times and its frustrating when the microstack wants to get a count.

If you are not in the hand its best to just not say anything.

 

[RENEY444]

Yeah , just be quiet about a hand in progress if you are not in it , or if it is multiway .