What to do with $20 br

[Big_Rudy]

OP nearly always goes broke playing with $20 BR. OP goes broke alot less if he gambles, wins and then uses BRM. There is seriosuly no point in moving down form a $1game, let alone playing a $1 DoN.

Alright, clearly you don't understand varience AT ALL. Chance of going broke with entire BR on one tournament where 10-15% of field get paid? Very, very high. Chance of going broke if playing in 20 tournaments where 50% of field get paid? Very, very much less. Seriously, anyone can learn to play DoN's in less than a day and should be able to manage double-digit ROI quite easily.

Yes I did use to play those BI, what's your point?

Just wondering why you'd waste your time playing a game you feel is pointless.

 

[BlueNowhere]

Alright, clearly you don't understand varience AT ALL. Chance of going broke with entire BR on one tournament where 10-15% of field get paid? Very, very high. Chance of going broke if playing in 20 tournaments where 50% of field get paid? Very, very much less. Seriously, anyone can learn to play DoN's in less than a day and should be able to manage double-digit ROI quite easily.

Just wondering why you'd waste your time playing a game you feel is pointless.

Lol you really don't get it at all. Then you have the gall to accuse me of not understnading variance.

I said games <$1 are pointless. (>$1)does not equal $1. Also playing hyper turbos 180 man fields is alot less pointless than a DoN $1.

 

[Big_Rudy]

OP goes broke alot less if he gambles, wins and then uses BRM.

Sorry, IMO its YOU who don't get it. If you want to add pre-conditions that he gambles and wins first then, yeah, sure he never loses. If he plays 5,000 DoNs first and wins every one of them he never loses either. If he plays the lottery and wins on his first attempt, he never loses either. In fact, in your scenario he's totally busted after just one tournament at least 90% of the time, probably more if he's inexperienced.

IRL he's going to gamble it all on one tourney, lose, and be done. Or, he's going to play 20, or more, lower-level, flatter-payout, structure events and have a much better chance of actually building his bankroll in a steady manner like he wanted to do originally.

 

[BlueNowhere]

Sorry, IMO its YOU who don't get it. If you want to add pre-conditions that he gambles and wins first then, yeah, sure he never loses. If he plays 5,000 DoNs first and wins every one of them he never loses either. If he plays the lottery and wins on his first attempt, he never loses either. In fact, in your scenario he's totally busted after just one tournament at least 90% of the time, probably more if he's inexperienced.

IRL he's going to gamble it all on one tourney, lose, and be done. Or, he's going to play 20, or more, lower-level, flatter-payout, structure events and have a much better chance of actually building his bankroll in a steady manner like he wanted to do originally.

I'll explain it in laymans terms.

Lets presume player X is a donk (OP is new so probably true). give player X $10000. He can either play 1000 $500 games (quitting if he busts at any point) or can enter the wsop ME. Which option is +ev relative to the other one?

 

[darkassassin89]

Lol ok I have a strategy for him. Hillbilly will hate me for it tho but for BRM it works if played correctly.

When i had only 20 bucks... I would play cash as a short stack at 4nl ( since this was the lowest game ) for 1.20$

Now, many players think SSers are BAD and either never mess with them bc they shove only good hands, or are willing to flip.

Now, if you can play a solid game buying in as a short stack you can slowly grow. It is not the best strategy, but it can work if done correctly.

I have turned 20 into 40 before doing this ( also playing CC free rolls ) then once you hit 40, start buying in either Full, or 2$ at 4nl

Mind you i do this at 6max games since there is more action and loose players.

This is not recommended advice for players who do not understand 6 max. So if you are new to it, sorry, disregard this post.

 

[Big_Rudy]

Are the other games of a structure where he only has to finish in the top 50% to cash? If yes, then take the $500 games. EV for ME is practically zero. EV for DoN's which are easy and ideal for a new player is much, much higher.

Remember, OP's goal was to "build a bankroll at a steady pace". Your way, chance of this is practically zero. If he was asking "hey, what's the best way to take a one-off, make-or-break, once-and-your-done chance?", then maybe your way is best.

Or maybe its best to forget poker all together and buy a lottery ticket. Chance to actually build a bankroll.... easy with DoN's and $20 and about 2-3 hours invested in studying the format should cover it.

 

[Big_Rudy]

Lol ok I have a strategy for him. Hillbilly will hate me for it tho but for BRM it works if played correctly.

When i had only 20 bucks... I would play cash as a short stack at 4nl ( since this was the lowest game ) for 1.20$

Ooooohhhh.....you just made WVH's list . Actually, SS is a viable, though disliked, option if the OP has a sound grasp of SS strategy. Still think DoN's are easier to learn for a beginner though. Also low-varience, which he needs with that small of a bankroll. Still, as I've been saying all along, there are sensible options out there.

 

[darkassassin89]

Ooooohhhh.....you just made WVH's list . Actually, SS is a viable, though disliked, option if the OP has a sound grasp of SS strategy. Still think DoN's are easier to learn for a beginner though. Also low-varience, which he needs with that small of a bankroll. Still, as I've been saying all along, there are sensible options out there.

LOL thats why i mentioned it at the beginning hahah

I know the reasons why its bad, butif he REALLY wants to stick to BRM, then this is a method. It works SLOWLY and steadily. I know, i have done it, but not the best route. Thing is I have trouble commiting my self to a SNG and sometimes need to leave on short notice, thus cash gives me that and I can come and go as I please.

 

[BlueNowhere]

Are the other games of a structure where he only has to finish in the top 50% to cash? If yes, then take the $500 games. EV for ME is practically zero. EV for DoN's which are easy and ideal for a new player is much, much higher.

Remember, OP's goal was to "build a bankroll at a steady pace". Your way, chance of this is practically zero. If he was asking "hey, what's the best way to take a one-off, make-or-break, once-and-your-done chance?", then maybe your way is best.

Or maybe its best to forget poker all together and buy a lottery ticket. Chance to actually build a bankroll.... easy with DoN's and $20 and about 2-3 hours invested in studying the format should cover it.

Yes and my method does build a BR. Take shot, if it works out you're now rolled to play all low limit games. You can build steadily with <1% risk of ruin.

I didn't say ev, I said relative ev. You should take the main event every time because relative to playing a few 1000 games as a newcomer it is +ev. OP is new so will consistently make -ev plays in DoN so will not build a BR and nearly always bust.

 

[Big_Rudy]

I actually used to be a cash player myself and, yes, I even dabbled with SS strategy at one time. Worked for me, too. Eventually got away from it and started buying in deep, which is even better if you're experienced.

I have time issues, too. That's why I only play single-table SnG. So far, they've been pretty profitable too.

 

[Big_Rudy]

Yes and my method does build a BR. Take shot, if it works out you're now rolled to play all low limit games. You can build steadily with <1% risk of ruin.

I didn't say ev, I said relative ev. You should take the main event every time because relative to playing a few 1000 games as a newcomer it is +ev. OP is new so will consistently make -ev plays in DoN so will not build a BR and nearly always bust.

Your method builds a bankroll ONLY if you're successful in that first tourny, otherwise you're done. Your REAL RoR is close to 100% since you're highly unlikely to win that first tournament. Also, you seem to assume that OP will not actually learn anything as he plays. One tournament, small chance to learn and improve. A few 1,000 games, much better chance to learn and improve throughout the course of them.

 

[BlueNowhere]

Anyway I won't be replying anymore ITT tonight, it's nearly 7AM and I've managed to simultaneously bust out of all my tourneys, FML.

 

[BlueNowhere]

Your method builds a bankroll ONLY if you're successful in that first tourny, otherwise you're done. Your REAL RoR is close to 100% since you're highly unlikely to win that first tournament. Also, you seem to assume that OP will not actually learn anything as he plays. One tournament, small chance to learn and improve. A few 1,000 games, much better chance to learn and improve throughout the course of them.

You don't need to win the tournament. Yes you do risk ruin originally but you also risk it playing $1 DoN (Chance of not min cashing + chance of busting after cashing) < (Chance of busting playing purely DoN). That is the bottom line. I really am going to bed now.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Serious lack of helpfulness ITT.

OP is trying to use responsible BRM, exactly the opposite of what many noobs do - and are chided for it by more "experienced" players here. And what are you telling him to do? Exactly what those with no knowledge of BRM always try to do - blow it all on one or two tournaments. Alright, if you MUST follow strict tournament BRM, play the 50c tournies, or the 25c ones, or even the .06c ones.

Point is OP is trying to be responsible with his money and should be encouraged in that rather than telling him to do exactly what everyone here scolds all the other noobs for - playing beyond their bankroll.

There ARE options out there for this size bankroll, wether you choose to believe it or not. I was trying to give him options in the spirit of his original post of trying to build his bankroll at a "steady rate". I'd still start with the cheapest DoN's and be prepared to drop to sub-$1 tournaments quickly if the first few DoN's go bad.

this ^

I don't think it necessarilyl takes any amazing 'rungood' to beat the micros even with the smallest of starting bankrolls. I'm sure there's quite a few members on here who've done it... some without depositing. (I know I've done it on a few sites one starting from a $2 cash in a freeroll on Carbon, another was a $9 freeroll cash on DoylesRoom (in '07).. I actually played a bunch of the 10c sng's on that site at the time (play was better than the $1 sng's on Stars & FTP), & on 888Poker & partypoker & Titan (Titan started with $35 now with 100x that on there).

Just try to stick with decent BRM (or as decent as you're able to with such a small starting roll). Play either SNG's (STT) or micro cash, playing only 1 or 2 tables at a time for awhile (stick with one or the other, don't bounce back & forth). Don't move up in buyins til' you're over $100 & try to stay away from MTT's. If you can find some freerolls (private ones) that are worth playing, add them in too.

Good Luck OP!!! Maybe you'll be the next Belgo on here... who knows?

 

[Poker Orifice]

Anyway I won't be replying anymore ITT tonight, it's nearly 7AM and I've managed to simultaneously bust out of all my tourneys, FML.

trolling & playing is -ev

 

[Big_Rudy]

Chance of not min cashing + chance of being broke and done > Chance of busting playing purely DoN.

FYP. Seriously. His chance of actually cashing in that first tourny is probably less than 10%, so 90% of the time he's finished after just one tournament. His chance of success with low buy-in DoN's is certainly higher than 10%.

 

[BlueNowhere]

FYP. Seriously. His chance of actually cashing in that first tourny is probably less than 10%, so 90% of the time he's finished after just one tournament. His chance of success with low buy-in DoN's is certainly higher than 10%.

This is presuming he understands how to play. $20 will not be enough of a cushion for variance and a new player at the start of his learning curve. If he cashes in a tourney then he has enough of a BR to cushion variance + learning curve.

 

[Arjonius]

It isn't lack of understanding, I understood full well and decided to play with my roll anyway. Also if OP Goes bust like 90% of time playing $1 BI then he may as well buy into a tourney where he can maybe cash %15 of the time and his BR is >$50 and he has less chance of going bust playing $1 SnG.

How else would you describe someone with a $20 roll asking how best to win?

So a new player has maybe a 15% chance of cashing in a $20 tournament, but 90% chance of going broke playing a bunch of $1 SNG. I'd be interested in the math that led to this conclusion.

 

[BlueNowhere]

So a new player has maybe a 15% chance of cashing in a $20 tournament, but 90% chance of going broke playing a bunch of $1 SNG. I'd be interested in the math that led to this conclusion.

Most players are losers, so a new one is likely to be a loser. A newplayer playing with 5% of his BR per tournament is going to bust it as $20 simply won't offer the cushion he requires for his learning curve + variance. If he cashes for $100 or we in a bigger tourney he at least stands a chance of becoming a winning player before the inevitable learning curve + variance busts him. No maths on this because I don't have a sample size on general population and have no idea how many players are loers and how many new players need to reload. I'm just telling the OP I'm a winning player and playing HU (where it's DoN, obc tactics are different to a 10 man) and I've ran 65BI below ev. Only way OP does not go bust is if he goes on a heater and learns to become a winning player quickly (something most people have never done). Both events together are unlikely and he's better off just shot taking imo.

 

[RamdeeBen]

To be honest, $20.00 on any site that doesn't offer 10c/25c tournaments, you're going to struggle with variance. I can only recommend poker stars with that amount, I'm sure merge have $1.50+ games and thats hardly any sort of buy-in even if they are soft. By all means try it, but don't be surprised if you bust your roll. I've struggled on most sites apart from poker stars with a small BR before because the games just aren't there and even when they are, they don't go of very often at all.

I've managed to grind $7.00 up to over $1k on stars and felt comfortable when I started at the 10c/25c games. I've tried between $20-$30 on other websites and the games just don't seem to be there and the ones that are are usually liek $1-$2 games which is fine in general, but a few suckouts and so on, next thing you're below $20.00 and have less than 10buy-ins in some cases. On merge, I'd recommend having a $100.00 roll at least.

 

[JOEBOB69]

SS scum itt!!!In all seriousness i would not play the $1DON's reason's
1)obv lack of playing experience from op
2)high % of rake
3)very low ROI even for very good DON player
4)not enough of a roll to absorb variance
5)There used to be tons of collusion in these(at stars) i would presume it still is else where aswell

So do what ya want op play mtt $1-$20 sng $1-20 or 1 full table table of 10nl,or a little short of 25nl.

 

[bartonjoel]

You have to start somewhere. Play the smallest Buy in Mtts and $1.08 DONs Play like a NIT early and +EV shoves when average stack is 15-20 bbs. You will show a nice ITM% and without a bad run you will double you roll. Stay at these levels until you double it twice. Starting low is the cheapest way to gain experience. GL @ the tables.

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

Telling him to put it in to one game is ridiculous. If anything all this does is start a crooked pattern for the OP and his original intentions on building a BR.

If you want to gamble, then go ahead. Personally I've done it before and I went from $20 to $400, just like you did Blue, just like JoeBob is saying. Gamble ,not play poker, but gamble.

I also have done it going from $0 to around $200 strictly with BR management. Sure there is a point when you're so low their really can't be much BR management, but I would play the lowest games around.

^ THAT is what the OP should do, regardless of his skill level, otherwise bon voyage to ever wishing upon a soaring bankroll.

And regardless of the fact I made that $400 very quickly and playing very efficiently I much prefer my second time method where I used proper BR management.

If one runs terrible and plays well 20 times in $1`games then so be it, that is variance. When you have AA and you run into AK in a $20 Max Cash Game, and you lose to a Q J 10 flop that is just a part of the game, and unfortunately here you're broke. At least feeling like the star of Rounders..

Even if he didn't go broke playing that first $20 game, it is nearly a guarantee later on his journey to a higher BR that he will go broke playing somewhere else.

It is misleading when members on here who have 1k - 2k posts and are spewing such advice as this, and don't act like it is simply because he is a bad player, because your advice began by saying that this is what you would do yourselves.

Oh yeah, like the micros are real impossible to beat

 

[BlueNowhere]

Telling him to put it in to one game is ridiculous. If anything all this does is start a crooked pattern for the OP and his original intentions on building a BR.

If you want to gamble, then go ahead. Personally I've done it before and I went from $20 to $400, just like you did Blue, just like JoeBob is saying. Gamble ,not play poker, but gamble.

I also have done it going from $0 to around $200 strictly with BR management. Sure there is a point when you're so low their really can't be much BR management, but I would play the lowest games around.

^ THAT is what the OP should do, regardless of his skill level, otherwise bon voyage to ever wishing upon a soaring bankroll.

And regardless of the fact I made that $400 very quickly and playing very efficiently I much prefer my second time method where I used proper BR management.

If one runs terrible and plays well 20 times in $1`games then so be it, that is variance. When you have AA and you run into AK in a $20 Max Cash Game, and you lose to a Q J 10 flop that is just a part of the game, and unfortunately here you're broke. At least feeling like the star of Rounders..

Even if he didn't go broke playing that first $20 game, it is nearly a guarantee later on his journey to a higher BR that he will go broke playing somewhere else.

It is misleading when members on here who have 1k - 2k posts and are spewing such advice as this, and don't act like it is simply because he is a bad player, because your advice began by saying that this is what you would do yourselves.

Oh yeah, like the micros are real impossible to beat

It's a fine way too build a roll imo. I had $50, was down to $20 and took a $6.50 shot and won to go up to $50, The first month was sketchy BRM but from that point on I've made ~$1000. This way is 100% better than griding $1 games, especially for a newcomer. If I only had 20 in my account I couldn't be bothered playing $1 nitty games tbh, I'd just shot take and quit if I failed.

 

[Tammy]

Guys, you would have a better chance of finding a fart in a wind storm than convincing BlueNowhere he is wrong. It's like he automatically puts up a brick wall around the critical thinking part of his brain whenever someone points out the flaws in his reasoning.

OP, listen to Rudy.