Time to quit playing poker and start taking it for real

TPC

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Sounds like a plan Fletchdad. However, the only thing I would suggest is you integrate your reading with your playing. If all you do is read, it's going to take a long time for it all to sink in.

Tracking software really isn't that big of a deal if you are playing MTT's, they are kinda helpful for STT's though. Cash games is where it's at if you want to build a steady income. You can use rakeback and bonuses much more effectively playing cash games. I suggest while you are building a foundation now, to get into ring games. It will be a lot easier for you in the long run.

I'm not sure if you bought all the books you mentioned. Most of the Harrington books are around $35. If I were you I would limit the amount of books you buy and purchase tracking software instead. You wont have any way to track your win rates and leaks with out it. Which is why it's so important.
 
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Really good read. Thanks for all the good advice in this post...
 
Leo 50

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Nice Post TPC!
Some really sound advice in there for anyone who wants to be serious about their poker game (business)

I work at home in my daily life and everyday I get up, take my shower, make breakfast and 'commute' into my office just as if I had to travel 20 miles to an office.
If I don't do this routine this way, I have found that my work habits suffered and far too many times found myself behind schedule with a deadline approaching.

Poker is no different, as TPC said. You want to make a living at it? Then you have to be dedicated enough to make it your business.
And treat it as such

:cool:
 
fletchdad

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Sounds like a plan Fletchdad. However, the only thing I would suggest is you integrate your reading with your playing. If all you do is read, it's going to take a long time for it all to sink in.

Tracking software really isn't that big of a deal if you are playing MTT's, they are kinda helpful for STT's though. Cash games is where it's at if you want to build a steady income. You can use rakeback and bonuses much more effectively playing cash games. I suggest while you are building a foundation now, to get into ring games. It will be a lot easier for you in the long run.

I'm not sure if you bought all the books you mentioned. Most of the Harrington books are around $35. If I were you I would limit the amount of books you buy and purchase tracking software instead. You wont have any way to track your win rates and leaks with out it. Which is why it's so important.

Thanks for that TPC. I have already bought the books, but wasnt a big expense, as I got most of em in ebay, even the HoH in a package, so was absolutely worth getting, and a great value.

I am combining reading with playing. I kind of have a thing where I always read something new, or re-read something I have marked, b4 I play. Not a lot, just to get me in a good mind-set. I dont know if its coincidence, but I win more and play better (i think) when I do this. I think I have a good balance between studying and playing. Probably 40/60 respectively. And I try to do my reading when playing concentrated is not so easy anyway, or not possible.

I am so mediocre in cash games, and my BR is slowly building with STT and MTT, then I play cash and donate a portion of my wins... I need to find my leaks - yep, gonna have to get some software - but SW is hard as I need a new PC. Short version is I do Interactive DVD ROMs for work using a number of programs with Windows 2K. I cant afford these program updates, and some are no longer available, so its buy new if I change OS. So I need a new PC for tracking software, as 2K is not supported by HEM or PT3. I have a MAC as well, and I believe PT and HEM are MAC compatible, SNG Wizard was not:-( - but play more on the PC as they are in different locations. (On another note, when I get my new PC, can I combine stats from 2 different computers to have a complete picture? Meaning stats from MAC and PC)

I only play microstakes, so have a hard time putting any workable strategy in my cash games. I may post a hand I was in last night, 4 all ins pre flop... only one hand made sense.... I aint good, but I cant play against these idiotz....I have been advised to play ultra tight, but I am such a cash game novice that I have problems knowing WTF to do, it makes me play timid, scared and so I shy away.

I have an account on pokerstars but have never made a deposit. Can I do it through CC, or is that only when u make a new acct? And I have deposited on FT, but have no RB. Any tips on how to get it now? Other than that I am on PKR and bodog, no RB anywhere. I think your tip on concentrating on one site makes sense, I do PKR, cause my BR is good there, and the MTTS and SnGs are winnable for me. FT I have .92 left, and played only ring games there...... lol. As soon as I know what I am doing, one of my goals is to make that .92 into $100, but I aint ready yet, I think I will just lose it if I cant even beat the PKR cash tables......

Anyway, thanks and if u have any tips on my .92 to $100 pending quest, I am happy for all the help I can get.
 
fletchdad

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And I plan to start, maybe in mid April, taking part in the CC freerolls on FT. I want to make either FT or PS my my main site, when I have more BR and can get software and start with a decent BR. My main reason is there is more traffic. maybe cause on PKR US players are not allowed. I am a US citizen but live in germany so Im cool there. I have heard stuff about some sites being softer, I seem to struggle on any site, I guess that speaks about my skill level.......

Anyway, whats your take - or anyone's - on sites/skill level?
 
Worak

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And I plan to start, maybe in mid April, taking part in the CC freerolls on FT. I want to make either FT or PS my my main site, when I have more BR and can get software and start with a decent BR. My main reason is there is more traffic. maybe cause on PKR US players are not allowed. I am a US citizen but live in Germany so Im cool there. I have heard stuff about some sites being softer, I seem to struggle on any site, I guess that speaks about my skill level.......

Anyway, whats your take - or anyone's - on sites/skill level?

In my opinion the micro stakes are soft everywhere but personally I find that carbon, UB and bodog are a bit softer than FT or PS.

There's much less traffic on carbon, UB and bodog though.

Can't really say anything about other sites as I only play sites with CC games

(excluding Titan - because I would have to deposit to play CC games there - I'll do that later when I've cleared my bonuses).

A suggestion fletch - why not play all CC-freerolls available ?

- It's free money and a good place to learn from experienced players (though the play is by no means perfect it is much better than in freeroll donkaments for the most part)
 
joe steady

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I only play microstakes, so have a hard time putting any workable strategy in my cash games. I may post a hand I was in last night, 4 all ins pre flop... only one hand made sense.... I aint good, but I cant play against these idiotz....I have been advised to play ultra tight, but I am such a cash game novice that I have problems knowing WTF to do, it makes me play timid, scared and so I shy away.
Well, it sounds to me like you're on the right track with the books and you're honest with yourself about your abilities, which is a big plus. Keep in mind that a lot of these books aren't geared towards microstakes, so a lot of the theories and strategies in them won't work because you're not playing against thinking players. You have been advised to play tight, and I would agree with that - play good starting hands, be patient, know your odds to draw and what pot odds you need to be getting to draw- these fundamentals are a good place to start. There's some very good advice in the golden archives about starting hand selection and position, check it out. Also, I think the microstakes version of PT3 is like $50, worth every penny imo. You can get a Mac version, and yes it's possible to combine databases from 2 different computers. You sound like a determined person who understands the hard work required to reach one's goals, keep doing what you're doing.
 
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Western mail

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I’ve been playing online poker for a little of a year seriously. By seriously, I mean I actually review hand sessions, discuss strategy with friends, read books, watch training videos ect. I’m doing things to become as educated as I can and become a better poker player. Part of which is running your playing like a business which I found great insight on reading “Treat your Poker Like a Business” by Dusty Schmidt. This was the first book I read that gave me one of those “a ha” moments.

Now a few of my poker buddies didn’t like the book but I think they missed the message of the book. Poker is a grind, just like most business. You invest money and time in things that should give you the best return on your investment in the future. Depending on what your business is some of the strategies you pursue might not pay off till many years down the road. So what I’m trying to say like in business, poker isn’t a get rich quick scheme. It takes a lot of time and work to generate a profitable poker business over the long term

I know you’ve heard the term “It takes money to make money” and that couldn’t be truer for poker, obviously. However, many players online like me are not poker professionals we all have jobs, bills, and other things outside of poker. With that said to be successful and consistently turn a profit you need to think of poker like a second job or your own business where you are the only employee. You are responsible for research and development, scheduling and finally generating an income for your business. You need to set yourself an organized structure that you stick to. One that allows you to have free time other than doing things poker related. You need to let the people you care about know about your poker business. Let them know it’s your own business. Something you can’t just stop doing while you’re in the middle of it because your significant other wants to go to the mall or your buddy wants to go out for a few beers.

I know what you are thinking, I play $2 tourneys or 10nl. It’s not that big of deal. Well if you want to keep playing $2 tourneys and 10nl for the rest of your life, then that’s fine. Don’t change anything. Think of your time in the micros like a start up business ran out of your garage. The most expensive piece of equipment you have is a coffee maker and a computer. You have no clients and no one knows who you are. People close to you will say, well he doesn’t have much, but he’s just getting started. I wish the best for him. Others might say you’ll never make it. Don’t let them get to you!!

I’ve made posts in the past that state you need at least $200 to start your bank roll, plus another $200 for poker related expenses. So I suggest starting with $400 total. If you don’t have the full $400 to start, SAVE up until you do. If you are going to take this seriously you need to buy tracking software such as Poker Tracker 3 or Hold’em Manager. I would buy that first before you even buy a poker book. There are other means of free poker learning material via the internet, which I’ll touch on in a second.

Where to play? Well, you need to pick a site and stick to it for the most part. The reason for that is there are VIP programs associated with the major sites such as Full Tilt and PokerStars. If you are jumping between sites, you’ll never be able to do enough volume to take advantage of the VIP programs. So which site is the best? Like everything in poker it depends. However, if you are just starting your poker business and have limited amount of capital, I suggest Full Tilt. Due to the fact that they have the Full Tilt poker Academy which offers free poker training. To make consistent money over the long haul playing poker and to take full advantage of the VIP programs you’ll need to learn how to play ring. I know some are going to say you can do it with SNG’s ect, but trust me playing ring is the way to go.

The Grind

At times, poker can seem like the easiest game in the world and two seconds latter it can make you want to punch a hole though your monitor. I have struggled with tilt issues and not knowing when to quit my whole online career, however I’ve slowly figured out ways to manage this and each blow up gets a little smaller. I’ve found its very self defeating and disheartening. The side effects of this cycle can make you want to quit or even go broke. It’s a vicious, vicious cycle and will prohibit you from becoming a winning player if you don’t manage it.

When you are playing the micros your money won per hour is going to be tiny. When starting out and only playing a few tables, your dollar per hour figure might be less than $1 an hour. Which seems terrible and it is, if that’s how you are looking at it. You should have tracking software which will show you your win rate. And you need to focus on that win rate. If you are beating the micros for 5BB/100 then you are doing great, just keep grinding. If you are losing you need to spend more time in your research and development lab and find out what’s going on. Thinking of the money as points rather than dollars and cents helps as well. Never try and push yourself to make some quick money. That will always work out terrible and put a dent in your bankroll, trust me.

Always stay humble. I’ve gone on good runs where I think, wow, I’m so awesome I can push everyone off their hands and run over the whole table. Well at times the situation may dictate that you can, but don’t get cocky and think you can always do it. To be successful in poker isn’t glamorous, it’s a slow and steady grind which will have many high points and many low points.

Setting goals is a must! The grind can get boring at times, setting goals can give you a chance to see the light at the end of the tunnel and give you something to focus on. But set goals that make sense and are actually attainable. I’m so sick of seeing the “I’m going to turn $50 into $100k in a year” BS. No, you’re not. You’re not because you don’t have any structure and the expected win rates at the limits you’ll have to start at to hit that goal makes hitting that goal and using proper bank roll management impossible. For me, I like hand goals. Playing a certain number of hands in a month gives you something to shoot for and creates structure. It makes you play volume, which is great for building your role, rake back, truly free poker training and Iron man on Full Tilt. It will force you to play through your downswings and also play longer while on a heater. Maybe you want to set a points goal to buy something in the points store? Whatever you do set goals that are challenging, but are also attainable.

It’s time to take poker seriously and start generating some income. To do that you need to run your poker playing like you would a business.


Very nice post.I dont agree with you about ring games being the only way to build your bankroll though.Sngs are still very beatable,even though they are still a very dull form of poker.All your points are valid for whatever form of poker you are playing.:beer:
 
Vfranks

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I think SnG are possible to make money from, and some people do, but it is proven that MORE money can be made from someone with a decent cash game... right?
 
fletchdad

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In my opinion the micro stakes are soft everywhere but personally I find that carbon, Ultimatebet and bodog are a bit softer than FT or PS.

There's much less traffic on carbon, Ultimatebet and bodog though.

Can't really say anything about other sites as I only play sites with CC games

(excluding Titan - because I would have to deposit to play CC games there - I'll do that later when I've cleared my bonuses).

A suggestion fletch - why not play all CC-freerolls available ?

- It's free money and a good place to learn from experienced players (though the play is by no means perfect it is much better than in freeroll donkaments for the most part)

I will play all. Maybe you can help me here, as you are in Munich to. I looked at the schedule, some are not available to me, and some seem to be wrong times. Since you are on the same time zone, you could steer me in the right direction. I have kids so any games in the middle of the night are not gonna work, except maybe week ends. I have money accounts at FTP, bodog and PKR. I have an account but no deposit at PS. And any others I need to know about, that work w/o deposit?
Thanks.
 
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hey man i really appreciate this post, i like to think of myself as an advanced player felt wise but amatuer bankroll wise, and not because i have no self discipline but i have no idea on how to build my bankroll, i was on that get rich quick scheme that you completly anialated for me lol but in a good way. if poker is as much a grind as you say it is then i better buy a comfier chair because i have alot of work to do. thank you very much and good luck at the tables man
 
TPC

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I think SnG are possible to make money from, and some people do, but it is proven that MORE money can be made from someone with a decent cash game... right?

Yes, you will make more money playing ring more consistently.

You should have a good solid ring game, make that your bread and butter. Why? That's where the tracking software comes in. You can look at positional stats, flop stats, turn stats, river stats and many other stats to find leaks. Once you have a solid foundation, it will make a lot of your poker decisions almost automatic.

Doing that with tourney and SNG's is very difficult due to the always changing blinds and stack sizes. That's where ICM and other statistical data comes in handy.

When you compare the amount of volume you will have to do playing SNG's compared to ring it's not even close. You'll make more with ring games.

I will play all. Maybe you can help me here, as you are in Munich to. I looked at the schedule, some are not available to me, and some seem to be wrong times. Since you are on the same time zone, you could steer me in the right direction. I have kids so any games in the middle of the night are not gonna work, except maybe week ends. I have money accounts at FTP, bodog and PKR. I have an account but no deposit at PS. And any others I need to know about, that work w/o deposit?
Thanks.

All CC game times are USA Eastern Time. So, figure out what the difference in time is and you'll know what time the games are. IF you want to use GMT, to figure out the time. We are currently in EDT so it's GMT - 4.

Since you have all the books and it sounds like funds are tight. Maybe resell some of the books on ebay to be able to purchase tracking software.

As far as turning your .92 into $100. Not impossible, but not probable. You are better off playing the Full Tilt CC freerolls and build a bank roll that way. Or you can always save funds and deposit as well.

As far as rakeback goes, sense you already have an account it's going to be pretty hard. All you can do is email Full Tilt and explain to them if you knew about rake back when you signed up, you would have signed up with a rakeback site. Explain to them you will do your most volume on a site that you receive rakeback on. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. PM me if you have other questions about rakeback.

Sounds like you are gun shy on ring, which is normal when you are just starting out. The key is using proper BRM for one. If you don't know about BRM (Bank Roll Management) search CC. There are many great articles on BRM. Also, sense funds are tight, I'm sure a Stox or cardrunners membership is out of the question right now. So go to the learning poker video section here on CC and watch the videos there. They are free and a good learning tool as well.
 
TPC

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Also, we are missing the whole point of the OP.

The first point is to build structure by setting up your poker playing like a business.

The second point is giving yourself the best shot to succeed. If money and funds are tight and you don't have the money to put into your poker business, then you really only have a few options to succeed.

The first option is to play with what funds you have and just hope that you don't run into a downswing that wipes you out, before you get to a point where you can use proper BRM. This is a vicious cycle that many players fall into which is what the OP is trying to avoid.

The second option is to hold off with playing for real money and save your money (meaning money you earn outside of poker, from a job or whatever) until you have the $400 to invest into your poker business. This will give you the best chance to succeed. I'm not saying you can't play any games, just play the CC freerolls and hope you can generate extra money that way. If you make $100 playing freerolls, then you only need to save $300 to start your poker business.

The $400 is just a minimum number. It allows you to have money to buy software and books, up to $200 worth, and also start you out with a BR that allows you to use proper BRM. Obviously the bigger the BR the better.

I understand the economy is tough right now. But as I said before poker is not a get rich quick scheme. Don't think you can be like Cole South and deposit $50 and never look back. Even Dusty Schmidt says he was lucky he never hit a major downswing when he started. And he started with $1000!!! Also these guys started four/five years ago, when the games where way easier. I see so many players that think they can deposit a minimal amount and turn it into vast riches. Yeah, you hear success stories all the time. But do you know how many people failed?

So do yourself a favor. Give yourself the best possible chance to succeed. Skip all the super micro .25 tourney's. They are a waste of time, you aren't learning anything by playing those anyway. If somehow you are one of the lucky ones that actually build a roll playing the super micro tourneys, then you are going to have to spend a bunch of time unlearning all the bad habits you picked up along the way. A good poker player needs to show discipline and restraint at all times. You need to do the same with starting you poker business as well.
 
Weregoat

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So what I took away from this post was:

1. If you're going to play poker seriously, you have to play it online.

Well damnit! I had my hearts set on being a small-stakes cash game grinder when I got out of the army. My online game is terrible compared to my live game.

You have broken my heart.

(That's actually all I took out of it.)
 
Worak

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I will play all. Maybe you can help me here, as you are in Munich to. I looked at the schedule, some are not available to me, and some seem to be wrong times. Since you are on the same time zone, you could steer me in the right direction. I have kids so any games in the middle of the night are not gonna work, except maybe week ends. I have money accounts at FTP, bodog and PKR. I have an account but no deposit at PS. And any others I need to know about, that work w/o deposit?
Thanks.

TCP is on the point as usual but there're a fw things to add regarding game times.
  1. The US have switched to daylight saving time already whereas germany is doing that only at the end of march (last sunday or so)
  2. In munich our regular time-shift is ET+6 (currently +5 see #1)
  3. I can't even play half of the available games either (though I've gone out of my way sometimes to make it possible)
  4. Look at the calendar in the main lobby (sometimes it's confusing with the time-shift but you'll get used to it).
  5. Some of the games rotate in starting time each week
(FT FR tuesday either 21:00 or 02:00 , UB FR wednesday 21:00 or 2:00, bodog FR every other thursday either 21:05 or 02:05, carbon FR fridays always 23:00 and FT FR saturday 19:00 or 23:00 or 1:00)

These times refer to "normal" times e.g. it will be different the next two weeks (look at #4)
 
dg1267

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Awesome post TPC! Thanks for putting that together and sharing.

Pokerstudent, I couldn't have said the quote below better myself. Every game...every damn game should be taken seriously if you want to get better. If someone offered you $50 to run to the end of the street and back, but you only got the $50 if you won the race against 4 other people, you wouldn't walk it. So why "walk it" in a freeroll. Sound advice man!

TPC. Great post.

Here's an example of where I fall short on this.

CC is EXTREMELY kind to allow many of us to join the various freerolls where we can win REAL MONEY!!! Man, do I take that for granted. I'm guessing some of you out there do as well.

Why would I make a stupid play in a freeroll, chalk it up to 'Oh, no big deal, it's just a freeroll...there'll be one later this week' and then deposit $50 on FTP? Makes no sense.

The majority of the CC community know how to play poker. So, already the freeroll is not a traditional freeroll. Also, the payout compared to the limited amount of people is advantageous to those with a minimal bankroll. But, even without the money, this is an opportunity to get better by playing in a real tournament with good players. Isn't that a great way to get better? If so, and we know that this will improve our game, why do we 'screw around' at it? Probably because we're not taking it seriously.

Now I am not referring to those who are playing strictly to have fun. You guys do your thing! But there is nothing that says we can't play to win and have fun. As a matter a fact, winning is generally more fun than losing, right? ;)

I'm sure, no one cares, but I promise (in this public forum) to take these tournies more seriously. Doesn't mean I won't try something funky once in a while, just means I will hav a legitimate reason for doing so.

Guess this is just one aspect of 'treating poker like a business' that I need to work on. Hopefully several of you are feeling the same way.

TPC, thanks man.
 
TPC

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So what I took away from this post was:

1. If you're going to play poker seriously, you have to play it online.

Well damnit! I had my hearts set on being a small-stakes cash game grinder when I got out of the army. My online game is terrible compared to my live game.

You have broken my heart.

(That's actually all I took out of it.)

Sorry, didn't mean to break your heart.

In a way I'm actually kind of saying that. Unless you live next door to a casino with a lot of action it's going to be really hard to beat the action you get online for a couple of reasons.

Like any business you need to figure in your cost of doing business or over head. If you are playing live you will have to factor in transportation costs. How much does it cost to get to and from the casino?

When you play live, not only are you paying rake, but you also have to tip the dealer. Which is another cost that you don't occur online.

You can only play one table at a time live and you see hands at a much slower rate. Which means you are going to see the hands that make you the most money less often.

What happens if the casino is slow or just full of a bunch of regs? Hopefully there is another card room near by, but what if there isn't or what if the action is terrible there too?

Part of the OP was talking about how much start up capital you need to play online, $400. Which gives you room for books, software and finally it rolls you for 10nl. That plan gives you room to drop down to 5nl and 2nl if needed.

Playing live you are going to need a lot more start up capital. The standard minimum cash games at most casinos is 1/2 or 200nl. Now if we stick to the bare minimum BRM rules we would need $4000. That's just for poker playing and nothing else. Also, due to the fact there isn't a lower limit to drop down to, I would actually suggest $8000. We would also need to set aside money for travel expenses and what not. Playing live almost makes playing poker as a part time job impossible for most people.

The skills you learn online transfer well to live play, however the bad habits you can pick up playing live will become huge gaping leaks online. With live play there isn't really a way to measure your game. Are you really on a downswing or do you have huge mistakes in your game? You really have no way to tell unless you have friends you play with on a regular bases that are willing to give you advice that could ultimately hurt their pocket in the long run. As long as you have tracking software, the data that you generate playing online makes analyzing your play and finding leaks way easier.

So, do to the start up capital required, travel logistics, and time logistics starting you poker business and running it online is truly the best option for most people.
 
Western mail

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I agree its very difficult to turn a minimum deposit on a online site and spinn it up to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.Its getting harder by the day.You either need a lucky donkamnet win straight away or go on a real heater at whatever game youve decided to play.The software is a must but probably not at the top of a beginners priorities when learning the game,although everything mentioned in the above posts applies to anybody making a deposit at a new poker site.I used to regularly spin up the min deposit on a few sites going back a few years ago but now its so so tough.I suppose ive gotten lazy regarding learning the game and a lot of players make a huge effort to be the best they can.
 
kmixer

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Awesome x 1000

I have felt this way a lot. Especially the quit forever part. I almost did it for real a while back and thanks to posting here I got encouragement from fellow CC members to keep going at it.

Thanks for this post. It is something I will read when I am having a down day.
 
5TR8 FLUSH

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Amazing post TPC, I hope some day I can learn how to make a business from poker. First I have to get a job (seems impossible at the moment(no one hiring)), learn more about HUD's, read poker books, and learn to follow BRM. Thx for the post, GL. :)
 
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Lofwyr

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fletchdad said:
I only play microstakes, so have a hard time putting any workable strategy in my cash games. I may post a hand I was in last night, 4 all ins pre flop... only one hand made sense.... I aint good, but I cant play against these idiotz....I have been advised to play ultra tight, but I am such a cash game novice that I have problems knowing WTF to do, it makes me play timid, scared and so I shy away.

Reading all the material is good, but if you're trying to read and play I would say beyond basic poker skills there are 3 concepts that really are important to focus on initially (between tournament play and ring games). So I recommend learning about these 3 concepts first, then go through more detailed material. All of them are somewhat interrelated.

Way Ahead/Way Behind
Big hand, Big pot;Small hand, Small Pot

and 3rd isn't quite a concept, but learning to peg your opponent's skill level quickly is hugely important too. Oddly, one of the biggest things you need to identify is whether they know the above concepts.

Anyway, I'm just starting up a grind and trying to take things more seriously. Sample size is quite small so far (only 4k hands), but my quest at 10NL is a winning one thus far and all the stuff above has been some of the most crucial to that success.

This thread is quite helpful, going to have to apply some of these ideas. Thanks!
 
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Saintnick

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very nice
Thanks for the lesson hihi
 
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