$$$ September Micro SNG Thread $$$

[MaxiRodriguez]

Food for thought here, even if I put the two limpers on Very loose and the remaining players on Very Tight its still 66+ AJ+ ATs+

ICM isn't everything I know, but I'm folding here. Shoves like this one have often tended to get me eliminated. Players at these stakes call far to lightly.

 

[Pokertron3000]

I can see the point you guys are making, if I was playing my normal 9 mans on stars (non-turbo) I know I would insta-fold this hand the turbo aspect is turning my head a little though, would be intresting to know how long untill the next level. If players call with anything at this level (which yeah most do) then your just as likely to get called in your blind if someone has limped behind you.

How did it play out Oz?

 

[cardplayer52]

I can see the point you guys are making, if I was playing my normal 9 mans on stars (non-turbo) I know I would insta-fold this hand the turbo aspect is turning my head a little though, would be intresting to know how long untill the next level. If players call with anything at this level (which yeah most do) then your just as likely to get called in your blind if someone has limped behind you.

How did it play out Oz?

turbo's or non-turbo's really shouldn't effect your ranges. what should be of concern is your "m". yes in turbo your "m" drops quicker which widens your range quicker. but your range should still be governed by your "m". there are times you night know the blinds are going up and you'll be in them when they do. then you may shove a little wider when you still have fold equity. this effect is increased at pokerstars as there blinds jump in money steeper than fulltilt. but IMO people open a lot wider and call a shove alot tighter than they should.

 

[Pokertron3000]

turbo's or non-turbo's really shouldn't effect your ranges. what should be of concern is your "m". yes in turbo your "m" drops quicker which widens your range quicker. but your range should still be governed by your "m". there are times you night know the blinds are going up and you'll be in them when they do. then you may shove a little wider when you still have fold equity. this effect is increased at pokerstars as there blinds jump in money steeper than fulltilt. but IMO people open a lot wider and call a shove alot tighter than they should.

Sure, and in this case his M says shove as its below 10 big blinds? Is there such things as implied M where you know your chipstack will be lower in the next few hands

I dont play turbos at all and my game isnt the best so this discussion has been fruitfull for me, I have to collect my poker books and start reading them I left them in a friends after my flat got robbed, I have Moshmans book waiting there for me.

What blind system do people think is best for the format FT or PS?

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

But I need to find some strategy somewhere - will probably look at Stox for some videos next week.

moshman's book is great and unless you're particularly fond of video-related learning or averse to reading it's probably more worthwhile than watching SNG videos, seeing as 80% of SNG videos are foldfoldfoldfdlfdofd until mid blinds while the 'commentator' basically rambles on about foldfoldfolddlfdofdoing, 10% is fun shove/fold stuff and the other 10% is reviewing the fun shove/fold stuff in SNGWiz or whatever (which you can obv do yourself - SNGWiz has a month's free trial last time i looked and is incredibly easy to use).

 

[Debi]

I have a very hard time reading. I finished my first book in several years just this week - "Elements of Poker".

I have been reading HOH Vol 1 for well over a year.

Videos seem to be easier for me to focus on than books. I am looking for help in 2009 - not 2011 lol.

 

[OzExorcist]

Sure, and in this case his M says shove as its below 10 big blinds?

It definitely says to shove an unopened pot - the limpers make a big difference here though.

I figured it was a close decision but ended up shoving it. I was two-tabling and this was the table I'd been paying less attention to (ITM on the other one) but I'd been playing nitty so I was hoping maybe that was going to count for something, or that I'd get called by just one of them with KJ or something. No dice - got called by both limpers holding 44 and TT.

Very interesting to see the ICM calculation on the hand, thanks heaps for that Maxi and to the rest of you guys for the discussion too. Much appreciated

I'll make sure I report back after my next decent session and see if I can't come up with another hand or two for discussion.

 

[Pokertron3000]

Ok I see with the unopened pot with M, I think I need to post some hands espically in the late stages and bubble play, I think you guys could help out alot there.

 

[WurlyQ]

Full Tilt Poker Game #14434824173: $1 + 0.25 Sit & Go (Turbo) (106175741), Table 1 - 80/160 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:49:13 ET - 2009/09/02
Seat 1: customchopper1 (2,165)
Seat 2: DGates91360 (3,380)
Seat 3: OzExorcist (1,030)
Seat 5: Scott Terp (2,250)
Seat 7: coachburg (1,540)
Seat 8: makavelizz (3,135)
coachburg posts the small blind of 80
makavelizz posts the big blind of 160
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to OzExorcist [7d Ac]
customchopper1 has 15 seconds left to act
customchopper1 calls 160
DGates91360 calls 160
OzExorcist... ?

This is a fold and it's not close (the range that wiz gives looks about right). Even if you have to go through the blinds, you still have 790 chips which is enough for fold equity.

You essentially want everyone to fold which is a tall task given that two people have limped. If you do get called, your hand has poor equity against any range that calls because you are either slightly ahead or way behind. You want domination if called but your equity against even A6o is not that high.

This scenario closely mirrors an UTG A rag hand which is a fold a majority of the time. The situation here is even worse because an open limp at least suggests that they have some interest in their hand making this a clear fold.

 

[Johnnybmoto]

Anybody playing exclusively HU Sitngo's?

The $2 ones on stars seem to be pretty easy if you play good solid poker.

 

[OzExorcist]

This scenario closely mirrors an UTG A rag hand which is a fold a majority of the time. The situation here is even worse because an open limp at least suggests that they have some interest in their hand making this a clear fold.

So you're suggesting that with the same blinds / stack size you're folding this hand UTG?

 

[cardplayer52]

trying to find some interesting hands on the bubble. nothing really so far but figured i'd post something this is a spot where it's an easy shove ATC. Because of my stack size and the fact no one opens the pot I shove. it turns out I get very lucky.

--------------------
HAND 1
--------------------
150/300 blinds No Limit Hold'em Tourney, 4 Players
Poker Tools by Stoxpoker - Hand Details

CO: 4,245 (14.2 bb)
BTN: 6,040 (20.1 bb)
Hero (SB): 905 (3 bb)
BB: 2,310 (7.7 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with 7♣ 4♣
2 folds, Hero raises to 905 and is all-in, BB calls 605
Flop: (1,810) 5♠ A♥ A♠ (2 players, 1 is all-in)
Turn: (1,810) 8♥ (2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: (1,810) 4♥ (2 players, 1 is all-in)
Results:[spoil] 1,810 pot
Final Board: 5<img src="/pokertools/images/emoticons/spade4.gif" alt=" of spades" /> A<img src="/pokertools/images/emoticons/heart4.gif" alt=" of hearts" /> A<img src="/pokertools/images/emoticons/spade4.gif" alt=" of spades" /> 8<img src="/pokertools/images/emoticons/heart4.gif" alt=" of hearts" /> 4<img src="/pokertools/images/emoticons/heart4.gif" alt=" of hearts" />
Hero showed 7♣ 4♣ (two pairs, Aces and Fours) and won 1,810 (905 net)
BB showed J♣ 7♦ (a pair of Aces) and lost (-905 net)
[/spoil]

 

[MaxiRodriguez]

haha cardplayer, thats always funny when your rag shove lucks out. I remeber once cracking aces with a 54o the board was 4 diamonds, he didnt have one i did . But yeah always a shove there. Heres a close one from a tourney 20 mnis ago, spent the whole thing Short and then crushed the other player HU but then he began to shove and got very lucky.

I thought about this hand for a while before folding, I didn't want to risk going out with A2 as I put the other players as loose and always do at this level unless otherwise known. The other two had played each other pretty aggressively and I thought there was a decent chance of them knocking each other out so I gave this one a miss.

Maybe I should've shoved given the ICM analysis on this hand, but no ones perfect lol.

 

[cardplayer52]

i think i shove there all day long. another thing you seem to have edge on 5!! thats a lot. i hear you can actaully put it at minus if the blinds are hitting you next hand. if the blinds were 20% of your stack then -.02 edge could be used.

anyway here is a hand i thought about for a few seconds. but think i made the right play. if this were a cash game or early on in a MTT i may stack here but being so early in the STT and not knowing if my flush draw is the best one i fold.

--------------------
HAND 1
--------------------
$2.25 Buy-in (20/40 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Sit'N'Go, 8 Players
Poker Tools by Stoxpoker - Hand Details

BTN: 1,485 (37.1 bb)
SB: 1,415 (35.4 bb)
Hero (BB): 1,478 (37 bb)
UTG+2: 1,490 (37.3 bb)
MP1: 1,397 (34.9 bb)
MP2: 3,455 (86.4 bb)
MP3: 1,510 (37.8 bb)
CO: 1,270 (31.8 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is BB with 6♥ 2♥
UTG+2 calls 40, 4 folds, BTN calls 40, SB folds, Hero checks
Flop: (140) 6♠ 8♥ 5♥ (3 players)
Hero bets 80, UTG+2 calls 80, BTN raises to 460, 2 folds
Results:[spoil] 380 pot
Final Board: 6<img src="/pokertools/images/emoticons/spade4.gif" alt=" of spades" /> 8<img src="/pokertools/images/emoticons/heart4.gif" alt=" of hearts" /> 5<img src="/pokertools/images/emoticons/heart4.gif" alt=" of hearts" />
BTN mucked and won 380 (260 net)
[/spoil]

 

[WurlyQ]

So you're suggesting that with the same blinds / stack size you're folding this hand UTG?

While I think it's closer, it's still a fold (unless the table is nit tight). The two main things I want to point out are 1.) be tight from EP unless you're really tight on chips and 2.) A7o (and A2-A9 in general) have poor equity against most calling ranges so don't overvalue them.

I added some math below. I omitted ICM because the math gets much longer, but hopefully the conclusions will be enough to convince you that this is probably a fold. Just running some simplified simulations (I make some simplified assumptions such as a caller means the rest fold but this should be a fairly reasonable model for the situation):

1. The 5 remaining opponents left to act have a 15% calling range:
A7o has 40% equity against a 15% range
The chances everyone folds = (1 - .15) ^ 5 = 44%
The chances someone calls and you win = (1 - 44%) * .4 = 22%
The chances someone calls and you lose = 34%

To summarize, a 44% chance of having a chipstack of 1270, a 22% chance of having a chipstack of ~2260, and a 34% chance of busting. Chip EV = 1056.

2. The 5 remaining opponents left to act have a 10% calling range:
A7o has 35% equity a 10% range (math omitted but it's the same process)

A 59% chance of having a chipstack of 1270, a 14% chance of having a chipstack of ~2260 (depending on who calls), and a 27% chance of busting. Chip EV = 1066.

3. The 5 remaining opponents left to act have a 5% calling range:
A7o has 28% equity a 5% range (math omitted but it's the same process)

A 77% chance of having a chipstack of 1270, a 7% chance of having a chipstack of ~2260 (depending on who calls), and a 16% chance of busting. Chip EV = 1136.

While chip EV wise, we are a slight favorite, if you include ICM, the first one is a clear fold, the second was is probably a fold, and the third one is probably a shove (but who has a 5% calling range at micros? ). While common sense, note that the tighter villains are, the lower the chance busting and higher EV so the lighter we ship.

 

[kidkvno1]

I am up 5 DoNs, down 1. So i am back at 30.00$

 

[OzExorcist]

Not-so-hot results so far today.

4 $1 STTs, no cashes (three fifths and a seventh). -$5. Fun stuff like AK getting run down by KQ and AQ getting run down by A7. Dem's the swings I guess

Still $5.40 up for the month so far on these though.

 

[Show Nun Bat Toe]

I only deposited $10 last month and grinded it up to $20 playing the $1 sngs. I wanted a little safer bankroll and also avoid the crazy 25% rake, so I deposited $30 and started grinding the $2 sngs. Got up to $60 yesterday, and now if I ever get up to $100 I'm going to cash out and move to another site because full tilt wont give me rakeback.

 

[MaxiRodriguez]

Sorry to hear that oz, I on the other hand...
Ran pretty hot tbh

GAME #-1803990176: Texas Hold'em NL Tournament 2009-09-05 13:24:00
Table Dirty Dozen "Jackpot Sit N Go", 338924512, 2942722151 (Tournament: Dirty Dozen "Jackpot Sit N Go" Buy-In: $2+$0.40)
Seat 1: No19 ($920.00 in chips)
Seat 3: MUAVR ($2,060.00 in chips) DEALER
Seat 5: mos1 ($1,050.00 in chips)
Seat 8: Crazy4Poker71 ($1,040.00 in chips)
Seat 10: Fe1ted ($930.00 in chips)
mos1: Post SB $10.00
Crazy4Poker71: Post BB $20.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Fe1ted [SA HA]
Fe1ted: Raise (NF) $60.00
No19: Fold
MUAVR: Fold
mos1: Call $50.00
Crazy4Poker71: Call $40.00
*** FLOP *** [H5 DJ HQ]
mos1: Check
Crazy4Poker71: Bet $90.00
Fe1ted: Raise (NF) $870.00
mos1: Fold
Crazy4Poker71: Call $780.00
*** TURN *** [HK]
*** RIVER *** [CK]
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1,920.00 Rake $0.00
Crazy4Poker71: Shows [CQ C8]
Fe1ted: wins $1,920.00


GAME #-1803978098: Texas Hold'em NL Tournament 2009-09-05 13:29:19
Table Dirty Dozen "Jackpot Sit N Go", 338924512, 2942722151 (Tournament: Dirty Dozen "Jackpot Sit N Go" Buy-In: $2+$0.40)
Seat 1: No19 ($740.00 in chips)
Seat 3: MUAVR ($2,175.00 in chips)
Seat 5: mos1 ($930.00 in chips)
Seat 8: Crazy4Poker71 ($160.00 in chips) DEALER
Seat 10: Fe1ted ($1,995.00 in chips)
Fe1ted: Post SB $20.00
No19: Post BB $40.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Fe1ted [CA CJ]
MUAVR: Fold
mos1: Call $40.00
Crazy4Poker71: Fold
Fe1ted: Call $20.00
No19: Check
*** FLOP *** [DQ HJ SA]
Fe1ted: Check
No19: Bet $40.00
mos1: Raise (NF) $240.00
Fe1ted: Raise (NF) $1,000.00
No19: Fold
mos1: Allin $650.00
*** TURN *** [H3]
*** RIVER *** [DJ]
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $2,050.00 Rake $0.00
mos1: Shows [C5 DA]
Fe1ted: wins $2,050.00


Shoves are good becuase you get people to call light. Well in my experience at these levels. When you get dealt cards like that it's hard not to lose. The only slightly annoying thing is that ive finnished 2nd in the two previous sngs where i got it in good, if i had won them, winning one more would net me 2k. But I aint complaining.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

btn is a standard player who's playing half a dozen tables boringly predictably.

--------------------
HAND #1
--------------------

poker stars, $6.50 Buy-in (25/50 blinds) NL Hold'em Tourney, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

BB: 1,620 (32.4 bb)
UTG: 1,445 (28.9 bb)
UTG+1: 1,385 (27.7 bb)
MP1: 1,445 (28.9 bb)
MP2: 1,300 (26 bb)
MP3: 1,450 (29 bb)
Hero (CO): 1,425 (28.5 bb)
BTN: 2,065 (41.3 bb)
SB: 1,365 (27.3 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is CO with K

A

5 folds, Hero raises to 150, BTN raises to 500, 2 folds, Hero raises to 1,425 and is all-in


i guess there's a more general "how often do you stack off with AK at 25/50 with around a starting stack?" question here too.

e: yo maxi i'm not usually the guy who whines about converting hands but if ur raw HHs have stuff like "Hero: CA CQ Flop: D3 HK SJ" then they really need converting because zomg that is tilting. :/

 

[Show Nun Bat Toe]

I will push often with AK near starting stack. Calling a push though? Most pushes with a starting stack are either AA or KK, so I would be less likely to call.

 

[tenbob]

Bet you didnt even spot that he posted the same hand over and over

 

[MaxiRodriguez]

rrrgh sorry peeps, didnt mean to, its that bloody XML format that iPoker decides to use, I ended up trying to get it from poker tracker, and then it wouldnt convert... so i posted raw, and my bad.

And the AK thats a tough one but i dont think i can commit my stack preflop with AK, this early in the sng.

 

[cardplayer52]

how come when i convert my hands at stox it has a replayer? anyway the AKs I'm raising 2.5xBB and folding to a shove. I might flat a 3bet pending on how big it is. but you really need to be a big favorite in the early going according to ICM. i want to say you got to be 65% favorite but not completely sure on that. i know you want to avoid coin flip and this looks like it could be one of those for sure. in a vacuum I'd give him a range of 99+ AQs+ and your not a huge favorite there.

 

[OzExorcist]

btn is a standard player who's playing half a dozen tables boringly predictably.

i guess there's a more general "how often do you stack off with AK at 25/50 with around a starting stack?" question here too.

Kind of in two minds about this one. There's no way a boring predictable multitabler three-bets you light for a third of his stack... but then a boring predictable multitabler pretty much has to have QQ+ to be willing to call you here too. Maybe he doesn't get away from JJ here either, IDK.

Time equity makes me want to shove, opponent's range makes me want to fold in this spot though.

Against a standard villain at the levels I'm playing though I'm much happier to stack off, given that this can be pretty much any decent ace or any two paint as well as big pairs.