Pocket AA.... Can you or should you let them go pre?

[kitchy65]

U can fold them very easily in a bubble of a satellite, cause there is no pay jump just the tickets so u don't need to risk your tournament for chips (First option).
2nd option pre flop u can never ever fold Aces that is a crime even if all the players at the table shoves u should call even if you are near the bubble.
Cause in Expected Value it's always the most profitable action to do

That will resonate with the majority of players...the temptation to min cash first before resuming normal play is alluring

However, the downside to that is that's likely all you will do...min cash. Not a bad strategy in a satellite as you make mention, but in a tourney for cash prizes it's a major error to fold premium holdings if you want to win the whole tourney.

The bubble period is the most precarious and where most players flaws are exposed. Even for the better players (who recognize the bubble as a great period in which to inflate their stack, at the expense of passive players) whose aggression can be their own downfall.

It's that moment where two big stacks clash for no apparent reason...one of them has walked into a monster and the guys waiting to be swallowed by the blinds all celebrate like little minions.

 

[kitchy65]

True that, it was to be a 5 way pot... I tanked for a while and wasn’t happy about it. There was no was I could push a couple of them out pre, bingo tilt against many improvable hands a nightmare with P.Rockets.

You're still sitting there attempting to justify your bad decision to an audience shaking their heads in disbelief.

In that exact situation, Garrett Adelstein sitting there with AA and £50k out front, would be seen gyrating in his seat like Meg Ryan and making funny noises!

 

[kon44]

View attachment 321251

This gives you a good visual with arbitrary random hands vs your Aces. By what you described, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the other 4 that were allin had worse holdings.

The moral of the story, you are close to 50% vs 4 other opponents with aces preflop. Average equity would be 20% in this spot and as you can see every single opponent is under 20% and you are way over 20%.

Try not to be results oriented and simply see that this is a dream situation and should never be turned down.

This is pretty much like having a friend who will give you 2 to 1 odds on flipping a fair coin. Take it all da

View attachment 321251

This gives you a good visual with arbitrary random hands vs your Aces. By what you described, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the other 4 that were allin had worse holdings.

The moral of the story, you are close to 50% vs 4 other opponents with aces preflop. Average equity would be 20% in this spot and as you can see every single opponent is under 20% and you are way over 20%.

Try not to be results oriented and simply see that this is a dream situation and should never be turned down.

This is pretty much like having a friend who will give you 2 to 1 odds on flipping a fair coin. Take it all day

Ok we’re back here with this. Having AA pre flop is a dream situation and more time s than not (almost always) my money is in. You miss interpreted a lot of the situation of faith the bounce an direction for the sake of it you can put that on me if you wish. 40hrs old, a sizeable spin up of my original investment for the session, presented with a situation where many hours of my time couldn’t be wiped away in a single moment of "What the hell, why not"....I reserve those moments for roulette. Your calculator holding are very specific and favouring the AA, the holding of the moment we’re less favourable with 2 other pairs, suited connectors and suited gapers. I dodged a loss like I have the other 6 times I’ve folded AA pre. This thread is a discussion on the topic of folded AA or other premium pre flop holdings if you will. I don’t need to defend my choices of old, especially when after the dust settled I’ve had the confirmation that I begrudgingly made the correct decision in the moment. I don’t have terminology for my out of box, without labels and tags deliberating but I’m secure in the knowledge is distinctively unique...... till we table tangle ay 😉

On another note, the players at the table were not bad players, they were regular higher stake players, I when I crossed them all those years back was a sporadic hit and run gambler when it’s came to poker. I’d play SnGs, small pub games and private ones relentlessly most days of the week and did not bother or even think casinos or card rooms (before I was a cards dealer/croupier). Ive on many occasions spun ridiculously small sums into very sizeable amount and vanished for week so because of it.... disappear raving and all sorts all over the show enjoying it. Bread and butter were the proper mentioned, one pub I could play a thing from 5 to 8 to 10 turbo SnG.. £20 to £50 in, top 2 always spit. Nights like that we’re extremely profitable.... But lifestyle is pretty fast and hectic, as I know you know lol. Anyways, bottom line there is and should not be no rule book to poker, there are more preferable ways of acquire particular outcomes, more specific ways to play in certain situations, it all depends on what I suppose you’re able to restrict/knuckle yourself down to (terminology and me ... take a hike lol). Definitely a thing or two I can absorb from you when the time finally comes where I can’t be strict and grind with structure, until then and especially with cash you won’t find me conforming or resembling any preordained schematic..............

When situation 8 arises I will be sure to bring the full details here... 😎

 

[kon44]

You're still sitting there attempting to justify your bad decision to an audience shaking their heads in disbelief.

In that exact situation, Garrett Adelstein sitting there with AA and £50k out front, would be seen gyrating in his seat like Meg Ryan and making funny noises!

The fact still remains that in all 7 situations I’ve done it I’ve made the correct decision..... It’s tilts other player to here’s it but it’s the facts so what do I do? Lie about it? I’m well known for having done it, and having done it a few times to boot.... I think it’s actually got easier lol 🤷‍♂️

And I’m not defending against anything, it’s not a bad decisions either lol, it’s a talking point because I've folded them correctly 7 times.. Touch wood haha

 

[kon44]

View attachment 321251

This gives you a good visual with arbitrary random hands vs your Aces. By what you described, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the other 4 that were allin had worse holdings.

The moral of the story, you are close to 50% vs 4 other opponents with aces preflop. Average equity would be 20% in this spot and as you can see every single opponent is under 20% and you are way over 20%.

Try not to be results oriented and simply see that this is a dream situation and should never be turned down.

This is pretty much like having a friend who will give you 2 to 1 odds on flipping a fair coin. Take it all day!

I will say one thing mind, if I was playing multi tabling online with structured staked buy ins, I’d happily ship it every time. If I was sat down with a massive portion of my bankroll of the site on the table ie. I’ve chucked a £100 on and sat with the whole lot and find myself in a situation where I’m up to say £6-700, I would probably fold AA pre if there was 2 or more all ins before me and I’d wipe out more than half my stack calling... I’d rather lose the £1 to £5 than lose £3/400 and would rather find better spots to make that £6/800 potentially. I make far more profit from hands like 45s, JTs etc. Most lucrative hands I’ve made cash with is 45d, 89s and KQs oh and junk A#s lol, dont know about you. Sets are always nice though but dangerously cause delimitation in many cash situations

 

[jordanbillie]

Ok we’re back here with this. Having AA pre flop is a dream situation and more time s than not (almost always) my money is in. You miss interpreted a lot of the situation of faith the bounce an direction for the sake of it you can put that on me if you wish. 40hrs old, a sizeable spin up of my original investment for the session, presented with a situation where many hours of my time couldn’t be wiped away in a single moment of "What the hell, why not"....I reserve those moments for roulette. Your calculator holding are very specific and favouring the AA, the holding of the moment we’re less favourable with 2 other pairs, suited connectors and suited gapers. I dodged a loss like I have the other 6 times I’ve folded AA pre. This thread is a discussion on the topic of folded AA or other premium pre flop holdings if you will. I don’t need to defend my choices of old, especially when after the dust settled I’ve had the confirmation that I begrudgingly made the correct decision in the moment. I don’t have terminology for my out of box, without labels and tags deliberating but I’m secure in the knowledge is distinctively unique...... till we table tangle ay 😉

This forum exists (mainly) for those whom take this game seriously, and want outside perspectives on their game for the sole purpose of improving.

I understand you got lucky and "saved money" but this is not the same as making the correct decision.

This would be like saying you should have folded Aces preflop everytime you ended up being outflopped by somebody. Or conversely, that when JJ hit a set on the river on my AA, I should have made the "correct decision" and folded the Aces preflop.

From a strategy perspective, folding Aces preflop in a cash game is a mistake!

The above bolded statement is for the actual students of the game in this 'Learning Poker' forum.

 

[kon44]

Hand from a recent sat... Fold, Limp, Raise or Jam?

Fold - Don’t get involved wait out for seat, Limp - Endanger your stack or potentially milk others. Raise - Create a situation if there is resistance. Jam - We all know PS loves to favour an underdog when there are no more buts n re-entries.

**I know what I did, what would you... By the way MP min-clicked to100k, CO folded, BT called, action me...

 

[kitchy65]

The fact still remains that in all 7 situations I’ve done it I’ve made the correct decision..... It’s tilts other player to here’s it but it’s the facts so what do I do? Lie about it? I’m well known for having done it, and having done it a few times to boot.... I think it’s actually got easier lol 🤷‍♂️

And I’m not defending against anything, it’s not a bad decisions either lol, it’s a talking point because I've folded them correctly 7 times.. Touch wood haha

But you're so wrong , just admit it and all this ends, it all goes away....cry out...mercy....just cry out...merseeeey!


Anyway, we're flogging this to death and you are much more affable now, which is all that really matters here.
Enjoy your winnings matey...and I very much like Fanatec sim pedals

 

[kon44]

This forum exists (mainly) for those whom take this game seriously, and want outside perspectives on their game for the sole purpose of improving.

I understand you got lucky and "saved money" but this is not the same as making the correct decision.

This would be like saying you should have folded Aces preflop everytime you ended up being outflopped by somebody. Or conversely, that when JJ hit a set on the river on my AA, I should have made the "correct decision" and folded the Aces preflop.

From a strategy perspective, folding Aces preflop in a cash game is a mistake!

The above bolded statement is for the actual students of the game in this 'Learning Poker' forum.

Dude, I didn’t get lucky or unlucky. Statistical data is just that, just because flipping a coin has a 50/50 win potential to you doesn’t mean you should go through with a bet when you’ve upped your stakes.

Example, I used to run and. play at the Riley Snooker halls when Redtooth was affiliated. One night a card cheat came and perfectly lay the foundations to wipe out as many unsuspecting players. He played like a donkey for so many a comer to the table, he acted out like he was tilting then disappeared and a cane back with a larger wad of cash. A few players jumped at the opportunity to milk this more money than sense noob player... He later after getting the game going and creating a false sense of security in a few proceeded to wipe the floor with them. Cards aside, statistically against what was perceived to be such a bad player, getting involved was profitable over time, unknowing to them they were being played for a larger end game... he walked out with about 2.5k after sitting being a donk losing £100 over and over at the start. He actually stacked the deck in a couple of key hands, and ignited the lust for his easy to win donkey chips.... Anyone reading this who knows who I’m on about, hit me up..... It was off the chain crazy 😵🥴🤯

Same principle with a spin. Your insistent there is a wrong and right way to play poker...... There will never be such a thing. There is the statistical data, variables, conditions and what not of the instance are more relevant factors. Play text book and your game is hollow.

And I’m baffled by your AA against JJ being out flopped example...... Seriously??

"This would be like saying you should have folded Aces preflop everytime you ended up being outflopped by somebody. Or conversely, that when JJ hit a set on the river on my AA, I should have made the "correct decision" and folded the Aces preflop. " - CATEGORICALLY NO!!!! 😱🙈


I genuinely have no more time for anything you say if it’s nonsense which that is... That’s simly being outdrawn/out flopped. I 80%+ get my money/chips in good and get outdrawn, that’s not a reflection on my game, however my game like many others I hope is always evolving, if you wish to follow the schematics of another, or rigorously follow a formula that works for money and recognition happy days. You are fortunate and have binked a comp that has allowed you to fully invest in the software and what’s not to rep... don’t forget where you began.

 

[jordanbillie]

Dude, I didn’t get lucky or unlucky. Statistical data is just that, just because flipping a coin has a 50/50 win potential to you doesn’t mean you should go through with a bet when you’ve upped your stakes.

I'm blown away, simply blown away.

Like...what does this first line even mean?

You have stated that you made the correct decision based on results. You didn't make the correct decision, you got lucky.

The fact still remains that in all 7 situations I’ve done it I’ve made the correct decision..... It’s tilts other player to here’s it but it’s the facts so what do I do? Lie about it? I’m well known for having done it, and having done it a few times to boot.... I think it’s actually got easier lol 🤷‍♂️

And I’m not defending against anything, it’s not a bad decisions either lol, it’s a talking point because I've folded them correctly 7 times.. Touch wood haha

You haven't folded them correctly 7 times, you just fail to realize the proper way to analyze poker decisions.

 

[Dmitriy_rus7]

View attachment 321251

This gives you a good visual with arbitrary random hands vs your Aces. By what you described, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the other 4 that were allin had worse holdings.

The moral of the story, you are close to 50% vs 4 other opponents with aces preflop. Average equity would be 20% in this spot and as you can see every single opponent is under 20% and you are way over 20%.

Try not to be results oriented and simply see that this is a dream situation and should never be turned down.

This is pretty much like having a friend who will give you 2 to 1 odds on flipping a fair coin. Take it all day!

Jesus... do you know if there is something similar for pokerstars?😳

 

[kon44]

But you're so wrong , just admit it and all this ends, it all goes away....cry out...mercy....just cry out...merseeeey!


Anyway, we're flogging this to death and you are much more affable now, which is all that really matters here.
Enjoy your winnings matey...and I very much like Fanatec sim pedals

The fact you see nothing other than there being 2 variables is all I need to hear lol. If making the wrong decision those 7 times I folded and it was a good decision is what it is I’ll retake it over having lost at those times. I lose with AA all the time and crush them more often, i especially love those that barrel AK because the statistics and supposed calling ranges dictate that an over bet, or the continuous pressure wins the day.... it may do depending on your victim range...

I’m starting to think I've wrecked you and your sidekick on my travels lol..... so much anti why?

 

[kitchy65]

I’m starting to think I've wrecked you and your sidekick on my travels lol..... so much anti why?

Don't bring me into it..... just cos Mr Hyde is re-emerging

I've just been spanked off a clown going all in with A8o

 

[kon44]

I'm blown away, simply blown away.

Like...what does this first line even mean?

You have stated that you made the correct decision based on results. You didn't make the correct decision, you got lucky.




You haven't folded them correctly 7 times, you just fail to realize the proper way to analyze poker decisions.

This is the last time I respond to you as it’s obvious your either on a wide uo are truly like I described you off the bounce. Luck is defined by a result after taking a chancer one. I didn’t state I made the correct decision based off results, I made a decision based on the parameters of the situation and made a decision which turned out to have been a good one.... bearing in mind had the situation offered singling out or a side pot from the guy on my left which would cover the loss of the main pot I’d have been in...Having to go more into this hand for your benefit is actually ridiculous and believe me my end is laughing their heads off at how agro you are about it lol.

I have made the decision to fold them 7 times, after analysing the situation and deciding nothing lost is future gain.... In which cases I always did. Whatever label, box or tag you want to give it from you definitive 101 go right ahead lol, it’s ridiculous you think there’s is a correct or incorrect way to do anything when we are talking about a game of variance based on evolving statistics.....

Blown Away...... Ditto.... I’m looking forward to running circles round you for fun when the time comes... I’ll probably find your pissed with me already when your handle becomes known to me which would make perfect sense lol 😂 Enjoy your evening, got no more to say to a stone in the mud.... now a mushroom.....

 

[kon44]

Don't bring me into it..... just cos Mr Hyde is re-emerging

I've just been spanked off a clown going all in with A8o

Hahaha, I can’t deny the existence of to pendulum swinging contrasts that is variance. And yes sorry, shouldn’t bundle you in with the tip top of blueprint 101, That’s bummer on the A8o, it’s worse when you can’t not call and the donk gets lucky... It’s going to be a while before I get to play any of you all, I wasn’t interested in Bronze, been banished from Silver and can’t play till Platinum..... Absolutely marvellous that... Is what it for playground antics alas. I’ve been had connection issues and the craziest of dry washing machine batterings on Stars last couple days.... Spent the whole day putting together all the furniture and what not bought over the last week.. think I’m hiring someone for the wardrobe... it’s bigger than a 4x4 ffs haha, I’d need paying as that’s whole day affair

 

[jordanbillie]

I didn’t state I made the correct decision based off results, I made a decision based on the parameters of the situation and made a decision which turned out to have been a good one....

LOL, then how do you know it was a "good decision" if you aren't basing it on the results?

it’s ridiculous you think there’s is a correct or incorrect way to do anything

Like the "good" decision you just claimed to have made above?

If there are no correct or incorrect ways of doing anything, how do certain players win consistently and others lose consistently?

and believe me my end is laughing their heads off at how agro you are about it lol.

You are simply seeing a reflection of your own inner emotions. There is nothing "aggro" about me.

Blown Away...... Ditto.... I’m looking forward to running circles round you for fun when the time comes... I’ll probably find your pissed with me already when your handle becomes known to me which would make perfect sense lol 😂 Enjoy your evening, got no more to say to a stone in the mud.... now a mushroom.....

This is pretty much impossible as I don't play MTTs to "run circles" around anyone, nor do I get "pissed" if I lose a game.

I play the long term math and continue to put myself in favorable situations, just like the one that has been up for discussion.

Poker is a game of unknowns and the more you can lock down as definitely the correct play, the more confidence you can gain in your game knowing you are playing properly. I'm not talking about "by the book" or following a dogma, but certain spots call for specific actions because the math just simply cannot be argued with...this is poker, this is basic strategy!

I can see why you haven't been successful with tournaments online so far, and I wouldn't see that trend reversing unless you started considering poker something that can be mastered. It's fine if you are content being recreational and playing freerolls. Totally fine! Just remember, you are on this forum with players who are trying to know the correct ways to play hands. If you are here just for freerolls, then leave it to that.

 

[fundiver199]

I'm not talking about "by the book" or following a dogma, but certain spots call for specific actions because the math just simply cannot be argued with...this is poker, this is basic strategy!

Exactly. In many situations in poker there is no black and white "correct" answer, because it depends on putting our opponents on ranges. However there are situations, which can not be debated, and one of those are having the nuts in a game, where we are not concerned about outlastning other players. In that situation we know, we are a mathematical favourite, regardless what they hold, and then of course we should not fold.

 

[kon44]

Exactly. In many situations in poker there is no black and white "correct" answer, because it depends on putting our opponents on ranges. However there are situations, which can not be debated, and one of those are having the nuts in a game, where we are not concerned about outlastning other players. In that situation we know, we are a mathematical favourite, regardless what they hold, and then of course we should not fold.

That sounds the oversight in 101 poker logic, the nuts can evolve as there is additional variables that can change the final outcome. It’s the situational variance that allows the game to favour skill as apposed to luck. Live play I should a whole differnt ball game than online however. Depends also on what your specifically thriving for if such a thing is relevant.

 

[fundiver199]

That sounds the oversight in 101 poker logic, the nuts can evolve as there is additional variables that can change the final outcome. It’s the situational variance that allows the game to favour skill as apposed to luck. Live play I should a whole differnt ball game than online however. Depends also on what your specifically thriving for if such a thing is relevant.

If we are calling an all-in, then the hand is over, and nothing can change. Not sure what you mean by situational variance? Maybe you mean situational awareness? The situation, we are talking about here, is having the nuts and facing all-ins from 4 players. Or at least that is, how you originally described it. In that situation we need to call, because its mathematically highly profitable, and nothing else matter than us having the nuts. It does not matter, who the opponents are, or where or when the hand is played out. Only the fact, we have the nuts, matter, and we have the easiest decision, we will ever have in poker, and that decision is to call. Thats really all, there is to it.

 

[fundiver199]

By the way I dont really belive this situation, which OP describe, actually took place. He claim, that someone had open shipped in a live cash game, and then 3 other players had called, and now action was on him with AA. But this is not, how live cash games normally play. They might be very loose and splashy, but that usually means a lot of people limping and calling preflop and then trying to make a hand or a play postflop. Someone open shipping and then 3 other people calling is something, you mainly see in play money games or early in a freeroll. So I think, that OP is basically trolling us with this thread, and therefore this will also be my last post

 

[kon44]

By the way I dont really belive this situation, which OP describe, actually took place. He claim, that someone had open shipped in a live cash game, and then 3 other players had called, and now action was on him with AA. But this is not, how live cash games normally play. They might be very loose and splashy, but that usually means a lot of people limping and calling preflop and then trying to make a hand or a play postflop. Someone open shipping and then 3 other people calling is something, you mainly see in play money games or early in a freeroll. So I think, that OP is basically trolling us with this thread, and therefore this will also be my last post

London Casino 2010ish maybe or later lol (dates I’m horrendously bad with in all things). And no, 2 straddles, the open ship was 9’s or something he lost a big hand previous or one before I don’t know. I don’t give a Scooby Doo what you have to say that entails a hint of malice. Extreme situations/variance frequent those that live outside the scope of mundane... Mundaneness being the tunnel vision you have presented from yourself in regards to this thread and now calling it a trolling piece.... I won’t be losing no sleep over shortsighted insight from no one, don’t ever and will never feel to justify anything I splutter, I presented all that was needed to bring the discussion, it’s a you and not me problem if the concept tilts or alludes you lol... I’m used to see it lol... Godspeed

**NOTE** In the future eventuality someone who knows who I am via my niche exchanges.... Do holla at me, you know I can take on the masses solo lol 🥴🤣😂🤣😂. Whoever expressed the Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde couldn’t have hit a nail so cleanly in descriptional contrast... All things do indeed exists of definitive variance, it’s via conditioning, schematical imprinting of a blueprint not of your own you become a shell and victim to compartmented organisation.... No Labels, Boxes or Tags and you can and never will be containable......

Maybe over time I’ll pick up and atone to your preexisting terminology.... truth is I’m more likely to make up my own... Don’t understand misunderstand something, it’s better to ask than assume and look a fool... or did I mean tool 🤔 Will either do? Grind Master ha....... Nope I’ll stop there lol I’m already in the sin bin and banished from freeroll semi decent entry till I can enter at higher level.... Quite fitting actually in truth haha... God I’m crazy, rattling to myself ffs 🙀🥴🤣😂🤣😂🤣😅 😇😈

 

[kon44]

If we are calling an all-in, then the hand is over, and nothing can change. Not sure what you mean by situational variance? Maybe you mean situational awareness? The situation, we are talking about here, is having the nuts and facing all-ins from 4 players. Or at least that is, how you originally described it. In that situation we need to call, because its mathematically highly profitable, and nothing else matter than us having the nuts. It does not matter, who the opponents are, or where or when the hand is played out. Only the fact, we have the nuts, matter, and we have the easiest decision, we will ever have in poker, and that decision is to call. Thats really all, there is to it.

The situation is 3 all ins prior with a 100% in for biscuit, agro and tilted with me, pockets for days just to beat me player to my left who S.Straddled my Straddle. The Situation is the Situational Variance, and the Pre-Flop Nuts is not the after dust settling 60 paces at dawn eventuality after the Flop, Turn and River. AA is favourable and strongest preflop hand, doesn’t always remain the same and against 4 people which I will reiterate just once more 🙄, the moment I was at and the implications of involvement if I lost was not favourable. I opted to donate my £10 to the craziness of the table kick tail..... Sue me lol. 😱

I don’t for the life’s of me get how this folding of AA pre tilts some of you soo lol, they are just 2 card so that look mighty good preflop that like any other cards or even playing blind cards, can get even better or even worse, just cos the statistics are just that, doesn’t mean they are true representation of a situation in the moment, a moment that regardless of it’s initial beginning, is rarely always the same as it’s played out. 🤷‍♂️

Where are those of unrestricted/biased comprehension and deliberation ffs.... smh.

 

[kitchy65]

The moral of this story.....never sit at a table you can't really afford to be playing at.

 

[Evan Jarvis]

A wise man once said, that in order to win a poker tournament you must

A) Get Dealt AA
B) Not Get Cracked when you have AA
C) Crack your opponents when they hold AA

There may be other ways to win, but these 3 definitely make things a lot easier

And no, for the most part I'm not folding AA in general unless multiway and super deep
Usually in MTTs stacks are shallow enough that i'm ok taking my chances with Pocket Aces

 

[Rob Hobson]

"Fold and live to fold again"