Playing junk hands seems to be the way to win big ....

[Aleksei]

There's also a difference to the level of depth that goes into a high-stakes pro's decision-making that makes it okay for them to play junk hands sometimes.

But that's good. The more people think they're Phil Ivey the more they donate at my table.

 

[DrazaFFT]

However, if you are allowed to limp with a hand like 5-2 from the big blind, as I was. And the flop flop comes 5-A-2, as it did for me. And one of your two opponents decides to ship his stack with A-8 and the other decided to call with A-K. And you are fortunate enough to catch another 5 on the turn and even more fotunate to have the remaining opponent ship his stack after catching a K on the river. If all these things were to happen, as they did for me, then a weak hand like 5-2 could be very lucrative indeed. However if either one of my opponents had so much as min raised pre-flop I would have folded and not been the slightest bit upset to see that I would have made a full house on the turn. After all, it was 5-2.

almost a same hand i had few nights ago at home game with my friends, had 2,5o at BB, button limped and sb folded, flop was 2,5,10 i bet 4BB he called turn was 2 i bet about half of a pot and he called again river was 7 i bet again about half of a pot he raised me i dont know how much and i pushed all in, he was ATs... it was a low stake home cash game so i didnt earned much money thou... if he just raised me before the flop i would fold...
Playing

 

[NeverEnough]

LOL.

Hey I am ultra tight, but I do mix it up a bit also. I may play things like 5-7 suited on the button, and I have this thing with J-10 suited (I don't know why).

I understand what you mean about playing some junk to mix it up. However, I never play crap like 8-3 off or the like. The only exception is the 7-2. Once in a while I will raise that sucker and play it like it aces. And if I win without showdown, I will show the bluff.

However, aside from that, I play a tight game. Suited one gappers and connectors once in a while.

And I do agree that ultra tight may not be as profitable as LAG. But when a LAG goes on a downswing, they lose their roll. I am just not like this (once in a while I LAG out if table is right). I am very conservative. I am also used to playing with nothing but fishes (live and online). They are just so bad, they always call me with worse.

Anyways, blah blah I go on and on. I didn't mean any disrespect to ya earlier.

Just my $0.02

I play very tight as well, but it's not working for me. I play live MTTs. One cash in over a year.

 

[NeverEnough]

There's also a difference to the level of depth that goes into a high-stakes pro's decision-making that makes it okay for them to play junk hands sometimes.

But that's good. The more people think they're Phil Ivey the more they donate at my table.

They have the BR to piss away chips & money. I'm just a regular guy with no $

 

[Flsnookman]

To clarify, in mtts I find I do better with a looser image. The way I play is try and win big pots and lose small pots. Also I feel mtts are all about pressure especially near the bubble.
I am by no means a pro but I am getting better results playing a looser style. Obviously there is more to it like only drawing to the nuts ie not chasing straights with flushes out there etc. Also you must play the board a lot and not be afraid to put chips in the middle. Anyway like I said earlier there are way better players here than me so dont go broke doin what I do, find your own style and never stop learning. Good luck.

 

[NeverEnough]

To clarify, in mtts I find I do better with a looser image. The way I play is try and win big pots and lose small pots. Also I feel mtts are all about pressure especially near the bubble.
I am by no means a pro but I am getting better results playing a looser style. Obviously there is more to it like only drawing to the nuts ie not chasing straights with flushes out there etc. Also you must play the board a lot and not be afraid to put chips in the middle. Anyway like I said earlier there are way better players here than me so dont go broke doin what I do, find your own style and never stop learning. Good luck.

Care to share some examples of this loose play?

 

[_FISHFEET81_]

they won it biggest they were also HU, it wasn't like someone raised someone re raised then they called with 73 or 45, which wouldn't happen if you have any clue. But the reason they did was biggest it was HU. Sure its ok to play crap hands once in a while and try and hit cause most of the time you will be disguised and get paid big.

 

[Flsnookman]

Never enough I guess what I mean is playing one gappers, any two suited, etc.. I would rather play a one gapper or two suited in a tourny instead of ace rag. Also means i play atc in position or allow pot odds to dictate my ay. Again, im no pro so this is more explaining my style than advice. Also changing up my style during a tourny helps. Good luck.

 

[skrsh76]

Wow, all the advanced members seem to disagree so give what they say more weight but consider this. You play a tight style, I know you play a tight style. You raise out of position. I put you on AA,KK,QQ.AK. I can afford to call you PLUS if I hit 2 pair or a set or whatever I will be taking a lot of your chips because it is hard to lay down those premium hands. On the other hand if I miss, it's easy for me to lay down my hand. So long as I win a big pot for every 4 or 5 I lose I am good to go. Also, if I give action and seem weak by call folding that sets me up to make more when I do get a premium hand. I am talking about mtts here. Again, I hate to send someone bad advice but it works for me. Good luck.

I agree this is what happens against me

 

[dragic1]

The larger your stack in MTT's affords you to play a wider range. In the early stages, establishing a tight table image can be crucial.

 

[Stowie101]

Part of playing junk hands is to disguise your image. If you're only playing AA, AK, KK etc. people will start to catch on to it. Phil Galfond tweeted once that he was at a live table and hadn't played a hand in like two hours, and that he had to play a marginal preflop hand just disguise his image.

 

[italiano]

I do not agree at all! You can benefit once or twice then you will be a fish! Playing hands only for a high card, is to deliver the game! If you win a tournament that way I would be the first to congratulate you and tell you that I'm wrong! But neither you nor I are Moneymaker illusions so do not!

 

[frankrizzojr]

isn't it really a pot odds thing when considering playing junk hands or as I like to call them speculative hands

 

[dgiharris]

isn't it really a pot odds thing when considering playing junk hands or as I like to call them speculative hands

Its an "odds" thing. There are two types of odds

Direct odds (pot odds)
Implied odds (effective stacks behind)

Let me give you an example: I was playing 1/3nl the other day, and ran into two similar scenarios.

Scenario #1: I had in the SB. EP ($80) raises $13, MP ($75) calls, BTN ($125) calls, and Hero..... Hero folds.

Yeah, I'm getting 3:1 on a call. However I'm only going to flop a flush 2%-ish of the time. 16% of the time I will flop a flush draw and 10% of the time I will flop a straight draw. So basically, about 20% of the time I will flop some sort of draw. So assuming that 20% of the time I flop a draw, then assuming that out of that 20% I will hit my draw 20% of the time. I basically have a 4% chance of having gin by the river. In order to be mathematically correct in drawing with my speculative hand I need roughly 26:1 odds.

I'm getting 3:1 in direct odds but since effective stacks of my villains are so shallow, I'm only getting 8:1 or so in implied odds per villain. If I add all the implied odds together than I'm getting roughly 27:1 odds, however lets assume that if/when I hit my hand I only get paid off 50% of the time, thus this doubles my requirements meaning instead of 26:1 odds I really need 52:1 odds. So, even if I add up all my villains odds and stacks I'm only getting 27:1 odds when I need 52:1 odds and thus this is why its not profitable to play speculative hands in this situation so its a fold. Not to mention being out of position.

So I fold preflop.

Scenario #2: I had on the BTN. EP ($480) raises $18, MP ($305) calls, LP ($500) calls, HJ ($200) calls, CO ($300) calls, Hero.... Hero calls...

In this case, i'm getting 5:1 in direct odds and about an average of 15:1 per villain in implied odds with 5 villains total and a good chance either the SB or BB or both come along for the ride.

adding up all the odds I"m getting about 70:1 in total odds which is greater than the 52:1 in total odds I calculated above that I would need to profitably make the call. Plus we are in position... So we can profitably call...



EDIT: Note, I realize there are other factors involved but the above swag is definitely enough to get us in the ballpark of what is profitable vs not profitable as well as providing a logical basis for why and how...

 

[MasterOfDisaster]

LOL this kind of a example says you are playing with extremely huge fish!

Scenario #1: I had in the SB. EP ($80) raises $13, MP ($75) calls, BTN ($125) calls, and Hero..... Hero folds.

 

[Jeschant]

I really hate playing A x just for that reason. I am much more comfortable playing 6-8 7-9 etc. Again, I am just trying to learn too, so take any advice I give with a grain of salt. Also I never seem to get enough premium hands to wait around 4 em. Good luck and see ya out there.

I tend to be wary of Ax in full ring games or even 6 max, too. I try to play it suited and fold if I don't have a flush or flush draw, or maybe try with A2,3,4,5 for straight potential (but then 6-high straight is an issue sometimes). I am just learning, too. And trying to relearn some stuff I forgot from a few years ago. Problem is, I play Ax suited like a good little newbie, then hit two pair instead, and get myself in trouble when someone has better.

 

[Gorak]

Someone said "Aggressive poker is winning poker"
Aggressive players will come with a wide range. They have 2 ways to win:
scare people off the pot or get the better hand at showdown.

 

[RickAversion]

dgiharris , thanks for reiterating just how terrible the odds of a flush really are. Suckers chase. Best viewed as a perk on already good cards like J+

TL;DR:

Scenario #1. Low odds of flush means fold. Crappy pot odds.
Scenario #2. Huge pot with lots of callers means better pot odds against low odds of flush. Go for it.

 

[dgiharris]

LOL this kind of a example says you are playing with extremely huge fish!

Scenario #1: I had in the SB. EP ($80) raises $13, MP ($75) calls, BTN ($125) calls, and Hero..... Hero folds.

The most fish of the fish astonishes me.

This is a typical fishy hand I see everyday, saw this one the other day...

SB has
BTN has

Game 1/3nl, eff stacks $250, 5 way limp fest pot

flop($15)
SB chks, BB chks, LP chks, CO chks, BTN bets $10, SB c/r to $30, folds to BTN who calls, heads up

Turn($75)
SB bets $55, BTN calls

River ($145)
SB bets $35, BTN tanks then raises to $100... SB rolls his eyes and says "nice river" and shows his hand and says, "well I got the ten, if you got the ace you win... okay I call nice hand..."

BTN shows the Ace of spades, SB says, "Yeah, I knew it!!!! I put you on a flush draw" :icon_scra

thank god for live poker...

 

[ChronicFish]

i play junk hands alot, but then i also loose alot but i also have the money to blow, i wouldnt recomend it if you dont have a good BR you will need to play tight and solid to build otherwise get it in. but my favorit junk hands are J/6 and K/6 they allways seem to do damage for me lol here lately ive been pullen in some cheese workin on maken that 22large in the sundays 100k at bovada.

 

[dgiharris]

dgiharris , thanks for reiterating just how terrible the odds of a flush really are. Suckers chase. Best viewed as a perk on already good cards like J+.

If you play low/middle SCs and SGs strictly for value for their flush, straight, or two pair possibilities then you would need to be getting at least 50:1 in implied odds for it to be +EV.

The real +EV value of playing SCs and SGs depend on your post flop ability and particularly your ability to read and target the right villains and use your image.

Lastly, you have got to have the ability to fold low/middle flush draws when it is highly likely someone else has you overflushed.

I had a big hand the other day in my 2/5nl game. Eff stacks $700.

I had in LP, there was a straddle from UTG, EP calls, I call, HJ calls, CO calls, BTN calls, SB calls, BB calls, straddle checks his option 8-way action

flop($80)
UTG bets $35, EP calls, I call, HJ raises to $80, BTN tank calls, UTG calls, EP calls, Hero????

I have to fold. There is simply too much action here for my baby flush to be good. Or put another way, what the hell is everyone else calling with. There are only 3 Jacks available and AJ and KJ would have likely raised preflop in position which means most jack combos should be J8 - QJ and QJ and JT aren't really going to feel good enough to put in a raise and or call a raise here on this wet a board

So what does that leave? Sets???

Well, JJ would have raised pre so that's out and 99 should have raised pre in late position probably 50% of the time to squeeze so that is heavily discounted. Set of 3s makes a lot of sense but all the overcalling on the flop means that there are other draws. T8s makes sense however T8s is drawing to six outs not eight outs so there is a good chance T8s and QTs hands are likewise discounted and would just fold. That leaves other flush draws. And out of the flush draw combos that MAJORITY of flush draw combos crush our baby flush.

So I ended up folding, flush hits on the turn 3 players goes nuts and get it in, river pairs the board, set of threes turns into a full house and wins. Other two players show a high flush and a high flush respectively....

When we play low/middling SCs and SGs we almost want to back into backdoor flushes rather than play strictly for the flush. Obviously the answer is always "it depends" but in general, profitably playing SCs and SGs depends on our post flop ability putting ourselves in position to get 40:1 or better in direct and implied odds while having a good image and good read on our villains...

 

[dgiharris]

i play junk hands alot, but then i also loose alot but i also have the money to blow, i wouldnt recomend it if you dont have a good BR you will need to play tight and solid to build otherwise get it in. but my favorit junk hands are J/6 and K/6 they allways seem to do damage for me lol here lately ive been pullen in some cheese workin on maken that 22large in the sundays 100k at bovada.

Just for shtts and giggles try NOT playing junk hands for a week.

For one week, only play SCs, S1Gs (suited one gapers), Axs and Broadways.

No Kxs, no Jxs, no Qxs, no S2Gs no S3Gs, no 98o, no T8o

take the money you save from NOT playing crap and use it to being more aggressive in LP, HJ, CO, and BTN by widening your raising range to JT+, 88+ and being aggro post flop.

Oh... and just because you binked a big tourney is no justification for playing crap. Its not like playing crap suddenly turns +EV just because you are well rolled...

just sayin...

 

[ScottishMatt]

Just for shtts and giggles try NOT playing junk hands for a week.

For one week, only play SCs, S1Gs (suited one gapers), Axs and Broadways.

No Kxs, no Jxs, no Qxs, no S2Gs no S3Gs, no 98o, no T8o

take the money you save from NOT playing crap and use it to being more aggressive in LP, HJ, CO, and BTN by widening your raising range to JT+, 88+ and being aggro post flop.

Oh... and just because you binked a big tourney is no justification for playing crap. Its not like playing crap suddenly turns +EV just because you are well rolled...

just sayin...

Bottom part I agree with fully.

However being more aggro postflop simply because you have more BB's to expend seems foolish. In no way does having more money in your stack justify being more aggressive. Essentially it's like your last point - It's not like playing more aggressive suddenly becomes more +EV just because you have more money to throw around.


I'll occasionally mess around with a weaker than normal range if I feel comfortable. Depends on the table and whatnot but with some super fish in the BB I don't mind opening T5o from the BTN. However my range are already fairly wide OTB so I don't want to go crazy and start playing ATC.

 

[ChronicFish]

Just for shtts and giggles try NOT playing junk hands for a week.

For one week, only play SCs, S1Gs (suited one gapers), Axs and Broadways.

No Kxs, no Jxs, no Qxs, no S2Gs no S3Gs, no 98o, no T8o

take the money you save from NOT playing crap and use it to being more aggressive in LP, HJ, CO, and BTN by widening your raising range to JT+, 88+ and being aggro post flop.

Oh... and just because you binked a big tourney is no justification for playing crap. Its not like playing crap suddenly turns +EV just because you are well rolled...

just sayin...

agreed... i do need a game change and im open to any suggestions on how, will go by this for a week and see how it goes, i need all the practice i can get, this donk fish shit has to end eventualy lol, i havnt calculated how much i put in but i have had at least 500$ MTT winnings at bovada. i do know i have the skill for what it takes but i need much more work, thanks for the help i will put this to use, and maby i need to get some sort of BR manager going i really havnt researched it but there is an App for that? will check ,thanks though will give this a try

 

[Stowie101]

I haven't done any tracking/analysis playing these hands, but I'm sure I've lost the most money playing KJ, K10, K9, Q10. Don't know why I love playing those hands so much, especially Q10, but it's hard for me to get away from if I hit part of it.