Just started playing online poker for real money

Arjonius

Arjonius

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Well, yeah. Any more than 5% of your bankroll on a cash table is bad BRM. Having an edge doesn't stop him/her hitting 2-outers at the end of the day. Bankroll Management at No Limit says play with at least 20 buy-ins, if you double up on a table with a 30 buy-in BR, then you are effectively playing with 15 buy-ins, but with half the blinds (which doesn't make a difference if it gets all-in). Especially for beginners, if you double up and then get felted, there is no bigger tilt inducer.
Anyone who thinks like this should probably switch to a more conservative guideline, at least 30 buyins. How can it possibly be +EV to leave a table where you have an edge and by doubling up, now have the opportunity to profit even more from the opponents missteps?

And so what if there's a chance you'll be stacked? That you have an edge means there's more chance you'll be the one doing the stacking. And the possibility of tilting seems a weak reason since you're supposed to know enough to stop as soon as you feel you're not EV for any reason. Plus if you don't train yourself to play through losing 2 buyins, what will happen when you move up and the same amount of money is now just 1 buyin?

20 buyins is a general guideline. It doesn't apply equally to all people vs all opponents. If you're a breakeven player or even a small winner, 20-30 buyins is a reasonable amount to buffer you against going broke periods of high negative variance. But if you have a significant edge, you won't lose as much when your cards run just as bad.

For example, let's say the chance of an average 5nl player losing 20 buyins and going broke is x%. Now let's put someone who's a long-term winner at 500nl into 5nl. The chance he will lose 20 buyins is far less than x%. So, he can have a smaller roll than 20 buyins and still only have the same x% chance of going broke.
 
individualequal

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Anyone who thinks like this should probably switch to a more conservative guideline, at least 30 buyins. How can it possibly be +EV to leave a table where you have an edge and by doubling up, now have the opportunity to profit even more from the opponents missteps?

And so what if there's a chance you'll be stacked? That you have an edge means there's more chance you'll be the one doing the stacking. And the possibility of tilting seems a weak reason since you're supposed to know enough to stop as soon as you feel you're not EV for any reason. Plus if you don't train yourself to play through losing 2 buyins, what will happen when you move up and the same amount of money is now just 1 buyin?

20 buyins is a general guideline. It doesn't apply equally to all people vs all opponents. If you're a breakeven player or even a small winner, 20-30 buyins is a reasonable amount to buffer you against going broke periods of high negative variance. But if you have a significant edge, you won't lose as much when your cards run just as bad.

For example, let's say the chance of an average 5nl player losing 20 buyins and going broke is x%. Now let's put someone who's a long-term winner at 500nl into 5nl. The chance he will lose 20 buyins is far less than x%. So, he can have a smaller roll than 20 buyins and still only have the same x% chance of going broke.

I am targeting this advice at the original thread starter. When you first start playing poker for real money, I believe this is a good guideline. If say you play with 40 buy-ins and double up, I see no harm carrying on. The point is, this guy is clearly a beginner and needs to avoid playing his bankroll aggressively.
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

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I am targeting this advice at the original thread starter. When you first start playing poker for real money, I believe this is a good guideline. If say you play with 40 buy-ins and double up, I see no harm carrying on. The point is, this guy is clearly a beginner and needs to avoid playing his bankroll aggressively.
The simplest way to avoid playing his roll aggressively is to choose a less aggressive guideline. 20 buyins isn't maniacal BRM, but it's also more aggressive than 30, 40, etc.

I've never used a guideline as small as 20, but I have used 30 to move up along with 20 to drop down. And I have been in the situation where I won a big pot that resulted in my having more than 5% of my roll on a single table. I never considered leaving then, not even to leave and buy back in immediately with less, and in retrospect, I wouldn't do so now either.

BRM is about more than counting how many buyins you have and reducing the chance of going broke. It's also about playing where and when you're +EV. I think using a BRM strategy that forces you to leave a table where you're +EV probably means you cold have chosen your strategy better.
 
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JimmyS1985

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Well Im in it about almost 3 weeks now. I started with $50, busted out, put in another $50, got down to about $35, the losses stopped and I am now sitting at $65 since I made several gains over the next few days at the lowest table in cash games at micro-stakes.

I had my first bad beat today, cost me the majority of a buy in, but at the other table I was playing I was doing pretty good so that helped soften the loss.

The bad beat turned an otherwise profitable session into a disaster in only 2 hands. I got delt AA, bet up the pot, long story short the guy who was going against me went all in on the turn, I matched and he got a full house on the river, otherwise it would of been my hand because I would of had 2 pair with Aces as my highest pair.

Then I got delt QQ, I bet up the pot, the guy goes all in again, same guy as last hand, I match him and he gets a straight with 7 8 starting cards.

So that was my first bad beat, I've since taken about a 2 hour break, just to not let my emotions get ahead of my gameplay or do something stupid like keep playing to "win my money back" (Thats evidence of a gambling addict). While the 1st hand was just kind of bad luck, the 2nd hand was avoidable since there was an A on the river that ideally I would of folded to, plus the other cards did make a straight a possibility, and a pair of queens is nothing to go all in on, except maybe pre-flop. I must of had been on the "tilt" that everyone talks about since I was a little steamed that my AA had lost a major hand last hand. Pretty much though, I don't go on "tilt" because I take anti-depressants as part of the prescription medication I get so I don't fly off the wall with rage or anything even if I lose a major hand. Also playing for small amounts of money at the micro-stakes tables also might have something to do with it.

I may be a beginner but if I had to estimate, I have probably played about 250,000 hands of poker, possibly more, before I got into playing for money. Thats a rough estimate, basically I've been playing poker not for real money for years, so I think I am taking to poker for money much faster than someone who hasn't played much poker at all, so I generally beat these microstakes players with ease, even though I busted out the first $50 pretty fast, since beforehand I had been used to playing incredibly bad poker players even by micro-stakes standards.

I have had several major breakthroughs as a new player to poker for money. folding Ace-rag was a major breakthrough, as well as folding unsuited connectors. I'm also getting into exploiting superior position more at the table to steal the blinds and Phil Gordon's book is helping me get some other basics down. My mentor at the game is helping me with the Poker Jargon and acronyms that I do not understand. The bank roll, by and large and over the long term, is increasing even without 20 buy ins.

I've also read about the first 45 pages of the Little Green Book (which is ironically red) and I got two members from this website helping me with the learning curve.

I would like to find a good reference chart, like what are the chances of flopping a set if you have a pocket pair, if you dont have a pocket pair, how often do you flop 2 pair, and how to bet accordingly to odds. Some of them I have a rough understanding of how to think about pot odds and stuff. For example, if $.75 is in the pot, I have a 4 card outside str8 on the flop or turn, and someone puts in $.10 I believe that gives me about a 1 in 8 chance of getting the card I need to complete my straight so the odds are good.

I forget where, but I thought I read that you keep track of how many "outs" you have to make your hand stronger, multiply them by two and add 1 and you will have a rough percentage of possibility of making your hand with the next card on the turn or river. Could someone clarify to me how to figure out your odds of making your hand, and how to bet accordingly? Phil Gordon kind of outlines it in his book and it has been helpful thus far.
 
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MAX101

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I don't know, I don't want too be the one that busts the bubble,but poker is a big GAMBLE, making a living out of it is a big GAMBLE,I've been playing for 5-6 years and about the only thing I got out of it is it's a big GAMBLE, theres only 1 hand thats 100% a winner the rest of the hands are a big GAMBLE, save your money to pay off your lawyer,your chances at pulling this off are about as good as you becoming a pro athlete there I said it not trying to be an:bootyshakthere are poker programs that let you see that persons winnings ,from what I've seen maybe 1 out of 20 are in the black the rest are in the red and I mean by hundreds an thousands the only thing I think of where do people get this kind of money to just throw it away,sure you hear that people win big pots but they prob lost twice as much !! truthfully I love to play poker but I also learned to respect it , heck it almost made me kick my dog once becuz of a bad beat lol!!!
 
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Hello JimmyS,
First of all Welcome to the world of Poker. I would suggest you to not deposit any cash for first 6 months. Start playing freerolls and keep reading tips and tricks about playing poker. There are many poker schools which gives you knowledge and experience about poker. Just like in School you study first and then appear for the exam do the same here first gather enough knowledge and tips to play and then go and play with the pros.
 
individualequal

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Hello JimmyS,
First of all Welcome to the world of Poker. I would suggest you to not deposit any cash for first 6 months. Start playing freerolls and keep reading tips and tricks about playing poker. There are many poker schools which gives you knowledge and experience about poker. Just like in School you study first and then appear for the exam do the same here first gather enough knowledge and tips to play and then go and play with the pros.

A bit too late...
 
Arjonius

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I would suggest you to not deposit any cash for first 6 months.
This kind of advice isn't hard to find, but it's too simplistic since it doesn't take individual circumstances into account. Instead, I suggest only playing with money that you can easily afford to lose, which includes both financially and mentally / emotionally.
 
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JimmyS1985

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Yesterday I had a REALLY BAD BEAT. I lost atleast 6 buy ins in a 24 hour period. I was playing 9 player tables and trying to get that 1 hand that was worth waiting for and it never came, or if I thought I had it and bet big on it, someone else always had a better hand.

Ok so today, after I took a 30 mile drive in my car from the bodyshop. I come back, Im energetic and drinking a lot of coffee, Im gonna start going all in more. I started the day with around $35.

Instead of matching other players "all ins"at the Microstakes, I started going all in on 3 of a kind on up. This tended to work very successfully and earn the money really fast. One player pointed out for the tie hands that I was mainly just feeding the rake. But I started with $35 today, and ended the day with just shy of $77 in my bankroll.

I also switched to the 6 player tables, I play 2 of them. I found that I can force 2 of the players (SB and BB) to fold half the time, just by adding in an extra blind into my starting bet. I picked up from Phil Gordon's book that the less players playing their cards at a table, makes your hand stronger or less likely to get beaten on the turn or river.

So today was successful, made up for the massively bad day yesterday. I was playing loose aggressive, I would fold the crappiest hands, but I played a bit more loose and bet aggressively forcing most of my opponents to fold.

Today made up for yesterday, I might try the same strategy tomorrow.
 
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-----bryce

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95 percent of people who think or even try to make poker a living dont and end up oweing tons of money and are in debt the rest of there lives. Ive seen it happen countless of time. Im a poker room manager and what i have to say is do not make it a living try as hard as you possibly can to find a job.
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

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Yesterday I had a REALLY BAD BEAT. I lost atleast 6 buy ins in a 24 hour period. I was playing 9 player tables and trying to get that 1 hand that was worth waiting for and it never came, or if I thought I had it and bet big on it, someone else always had a better hand.

Ok so today, after I took a 30 mile drive in my car from the bodyshop. I come back, Im energetic and drinking a lot of coffee, Im gonna start going all in more. I started the day with around $35.

Instead of matching other players "all ins"at the Microstakes, I started going all in on 3 of a kind on up. This tended to work very successfully and earn the money really fast. One player pointed out for the tie hands that I was mainly just feeding the rake. But I started with $35 today, and ended the day with just shy of $77 in my bankroll.

I also switched to the 6 player tables, I play 2 of them. I found that I can force 2 of the players (SB and BB) to fold half the time, just by adding in an extra blind into my starting bet. I picked up from Phil Gordon's book that the less players playing their cards at a table, makes your hand stronger or less likely to get beaten on the turn or river.

So today was successful, made up for the massively bad day yesterday. I was playing loose aggressive, I would fold the crappiest hands, but I played a bit more loose and bet aggressively forcing most of my opponents to fold.

Today made up for yesterday, I might try the same strategy tomorrow.
If this is a good strategy, why isn't it widely used? Do you really think you're the first person to come up with something this simple?

Stop focusing on short-term wins and losses. Learn to play a decent game and you'll win more than you lose. Keep looking for strategies that provide easy ways to win, and you can expect your roll to continue bouncing up and down on a day to day basis, but likely not with an upward overall trajectory.
 
fletchdad

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Read the posts Jimmy, and take the advice to heart, like the one right above this, and the one above that.

BTW, 6 BI loss is no big deal if you are playing well, which I dont think you are. Not being mean. If you have 6 BI losses a lot, then you need to find out why. You want to know why anyway, when you win or lose. You want to analyze your wins and losses and find out why. And that is a good word to think of all the time. WHY. When you bet, ask yourself WHY am I betting. And ask when you call, and when you raise and when you fold. Why, why, why....If you dont know the answer you are not playing good. If you do know the answer, make sure it is the right one. Post some hands and explain what your thoughts were when you did what you did. This will help a lot, believe me.
 
Shwiggler

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Id like to know the game pretty thoroughly and know of which things I should get (such as hold em manager 2) any books that perhaps I should read and anything else.

Welcome to online poker!

You will definitely need a database software, either HM2 or PT4. You can do trials of each one to see which one you prefer. (I personally recommend HM2). You should also get Leak Buster to go along with it, once you have a good sample size (30k+ hands). It's the closest thing to having a coach analyze your database, and well worth the cash.

Good luck at the tables.
 
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i am new to carbon myself i need help on my poker game, anybody want to teach a fish to become a shark, please help..ty
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

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And that is a good word to think of all the time. WHY. When you bet, ask yourself WHY am I betting. And ask when you call, and when you raise and when you fold. Why, why, why....If you dont know the answer you are not playing good. If you do know the answer, make sure it is the right one. Post some hands and explain what your thoughts were when you did what you did. This will help a lot, believe me.
I'll go a step farther in this direction. Don't just ask why, but also why not. In a given situation, why should I call / raise? And why not? This acts as a form of check against being unduly optimistic. It's often pretty easy to justify an action if you make optimistic assumptions / reasons. But doing this a lot, even if they're just moderately optimistic, is a leak.
 
individualequal

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Yesterday I had a REALLY BAD BEAT. I lost atleast 6 buy ins in a 24 hour period. I was playing 9 player tables and trying to get that 1 hand that was worth waiting for and it never came, or if I thought I had it and bet big on it, someone else always had a better hand.

Ok so today, after I took a 30 mile drive in my car from the bodyshop. I come back, Im energetic and drinking a lot of coffee, Im gonna start going all in more. I started the day with around $35.

Instead of matching other players "all ins"at the Microstakes, I started going all in on 3 of a kind on up. This tended to work very successfully and earn the money really fast. One player pointed out for the tie hands that I was mainly just feeding the rake. But I started with $35 today, and ended the day with just shy of $77 in my bankroll.

I also switched to the 6 player tables, I play 2 of them. I found that I can force 2 of the players (SB and BB) to fold half the time, just by adding in an extra blind into my starting bet. I picked up from Phil Gordon's book that the less players playing their cards at a table, makes your hand stronger or less likely to get beaten on the turn or river.

So today was successful, made up for the massively bad day yesterday. I was playing loose aggressive, I would fold the crappiest hands, but I played a bit more loose and bet aggressively forcing most of my opponents to fold.

Today made up for yesterday, I might try the same strategy tomorrow.

WHAT????

How you managed to more than double your bankroll in a day, playing NLH cash games is a) unbelievable, unless you are playing outside your bankroll (judging by how you talk about the game) and b) not to be expected on a daily basis.

A 'REALLY BAD BEAT' is not a session, its a single hand. What exactly happened in this 'bad beat'? Did you play optimal poker and lose 6 more all-ins than you won or did you play badly?

Going all-in with 3 of a kind and better? Firstly, how many times are you getting trips/sets+. Secondly, if you're just shoving all in when you flop these hands, how on earth are you getting value?

You started off this thread asking for advice and now you're just ignoring the advice and treating it as a diary. READ! You might pick up some grammar skills in the process...
 
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JimmyS1985

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Now the bankroll is up to $125, but part of that is because Bovada deposited $40 just because I play a lot of poker. Goal is $300 to move up to the next table.

Poker's been free so far thankfully.
 
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Loonbat

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"Online Ace" is a good place for you to start. This is not one of my favorite poker books, but does a credible job for those new to online poker. Even though it is now several years old, the majority of the advice is appropriate. The $5 you spend for the book on a place like Amazon will likely be one of your best poker investments
 
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JimmyS1985

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Ok I been playing about a month. Game feels like a total grind at these .05nl tables. Ive gotten to the point that Im playing 4 tables, game play is improving but bankroll is not reflecting that.

It goes up and down, right now its down a bit, I might play smart poker for 45 minutes straight, and lose to a bad all-in preflop, in which case I have to win a ton of small pots for the next hour to make it all back.

I need more people on AIM to talk poker with. Im not quite a fish, because so far poker has been free, except for my 2 initial deposits. A donk, probably.

I have one poker mentor, the other one fell off the face of the earth in that I haven't seen him sign online in forever.

Im gonna work on re-reading Phil Gordons book again.
 
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