Easier to play against pro's than donkeys?!?!?!?!

[HooDooKoo]

And one thing I look for is how many UTG raises are happening and I'll say it seems sometimes that a program exist to give UTG good pkts. I'm not gonna say which site I've been observing this. You have to admit it would cause more action and the tourney would end sooner and players would move on to the next.

I readily admit that the situation you described would likely generate more action and help keep tourneys shorter.

Having said that, people have analyzed multiple millions of hands of data from all the major online poker sites and there is absolutely ZERO evidence of this. You can believe whatever you'd like. In this case, though, what you think you're seeing is almost certainly quite different than what you're really seeing

Good luck.

-HooDooKoo

 

[Quasimodo]

Thank you for your response and I'll admit that your words make me feel better as while me having doubts has not slowed me down a lot. Perhaps you could steer me where I'm able to read some of the data you mention. I'd find it very worthwhile reading.

 

[Balyev]

Certainly Russian players everywhere, as does the largest country))) Maybe we should move to higher rates, not play micro. Because all new players only there and play and do all bets are thinking with bad hands and win.

 

[Countmein]

If you think your good and you can't beat the micros your problem most likely is patience. I know it's my problem, I want to win every pot and play every pot. This is especially true after I get sucked out on once or twice in micros.

This I have come to realize is simply bad poker. So the micros will teach you patience probably the most important skill in poker, which is why TAG style of poker will almost always be profitable. Just watch Todd Brunson.

 

[DunningKruger]

^^ The biggest or one of the biggest problems with breakeven or losing uNL players imo is that they're not finding enough folds. They're paying off other players a little too frequently. Sometimes they'll check/call flop bets out of position trying to hit an over card and then end up really wishing they didn't hit their A or K on the turn heh.

 

[RUNRRUNRTO]

"Why do the pulling when the donkey will do the pushing". I'd rather play with donkeys than with Pros. Donkeys make a lot more mistakes.

 

[JamaicanKid]

Just to give an example I was playing in a $22 deep stack tournament. Sitting 3rd overall with a chip stack of $26000. There was 23 players left in the tourney, top 9 made cash. The table is fairly nitty although there is one player who has chipped up for several all in occasions. He was "lucky" on multiple occasions! I have AK suited and raise it to 4 BB. Everyone folds but one. The crazy Villain re-raises and I just simply call. Flop comes out and I hit top 2 pair AK. I check, villain shoves all in for about $23000. I thought at first that this was a bluff to try and get me to fold, then i put him on a set, then I thought he would have slow played it more. Then I thought he might of hit his ace, but I know I have him out kicked. I was right.
I call, he rolls over A4! Board is A K 8! Turn 4 RIVER A BLOODY 4! Villain becomes new chip leader, I'm the new short stack.

For some sick reason when the 4 came on the turn, I knew another 4 was going to come on the river! If that's not lucky, and luck doesn't exist in poker, I will quit now and head to slot machines, I might have better luck there!

I can so relate to this......... sorry about the bad beat

 

[DenverDave]

In my personal quest to become a better poker player, I have eliminated "bad beat" from my vocabulary. I don't suffer bad beats, I get outdrawn. Or I will outdraw someone else. Or I will have the best hand and get paid off.

I tried to move up a level to 10NL and got KK vs AQ with a Q on the flop all in and he rivered a Q. Hit a 2 outer. It is going to happen. It HAS to happen, so you can make money in the long run as others have said. Would I love to have taken that pot down? Farking A yes! It did not happen. I bought in again and kept moving on.

You can too. It takes some soul searching. It takes time. I would suggest(no I am not a shill here) Jared Tendlers 1st book. I think you are on what he calls "Entitlement Tilt". You expect to win and when you don't it pisses you off. It used to piss me off. Once I understood what I was feeling, it make being drawn out on much easier to live with. And I get notes on a fishy player I can use later.

Good luck!!

 

[HooDooKoo]

In my personal quest to become a better poker player, I have eliminated "bad beat" from my vocabulary. I don't suffer bad beats, I get outdrawn. Or I will outdraw someone else. Or I will have the best hand and get paid off.

I tried to move up a level to 10NL and got KK vs AQ with a Q on the flop all in and he rivered a Q. Hit a 2 outer. It is going to happen. It HAS to happen, so you can make money in the long run as others have said. Would I love to have taken that pot down? Farking A yes! It did not happen. I bought in again and kept moving on.

You can too. It takes some soul searching. It takes time. I would suggest(no I am not a shill here) Jared Tendlers 1st book. I think you are on what he calls "Entitlement Tilt". You expect to win and when you don't it pisses you off. It used to piss me off. Once I understood what I was feeling, it make being drawn out on much easier to live with. And I get notes on a fishy player I can use later.

Good luck!!

It was a 5-outer. Three aces and two queens.

-HooDooKoo

 

[loafes]

Bad players are unpredictable and although I wouldn't exactly say they are difficult to play against (OK maniacs send agro fish are) but they do make plenty of mistakes and are easier to make money from even though they can be difficult to hand read.

Pros on the other hand are also difficult to play against but also make far less mistakes and you won't make money off of.

The exception is if instead of pros you mean nits, then yes they are easier to play against, but no you won't make more money off of them.


Donkeys can be difficult to play against at times, but when it comes to making money I'd much rather play a donkey than a pro any day of the week.

 

[Karozi615]

easier to play against pros then donkeys?

this actually might be the dumbest thing ive ever heard
you lost money to the donkey because actually you are the donkey and you didn't adjust accordingly
you took a few pots of a more conservative player because he was waiting to pick you off and didn't get a chance, and now you think its easy to beat the "pros"
are you dumb?
pros would absolutely crash people on this forum... find me someone on this forum who could beat phil galfond at heads up PLO in a 100 session matchup more than 45 times, you won't. They make a living off of the edges.

 

[jj20002]

Prefer donkeys in a final table than Negranu or Ivey

No not at all!

If I thought online poker is rigged I would have stopped long ago. It was the play itself I was questioning. On a final table, with 2 all in's already. Surely that play is not normal.

Prefer donkeys in a final table than Negranu or Ivey, obviously donkeys have luck time to time as everybody does, this is the nice thing about poker

do you think that if a donkey never wins they will not play again, so the reason so many people playing poker is the fact that people time to time could be help by luck or whatever you want to call it and win,

sure you have seen how this people win early stages going allin and winning big pots but the thing here is to adapt and if you play well can be double your chips with this king of people, so yes i like to have 2 or 3 guys like that, and me waiting to pull the trigger at the right moment,

 

[sunburnt2k11]

it depends on if you want to try to bluff or not. i think in my humble opinion the novice players are easier since you know what they are willing to play and not play. half of the battle is knowing what your opponents has in his hands. and usually you should be able to know what they have in their hands. if you don't then you're the novice lol

 

[Jay65]

For example: I have $200 bankroll. I play $1.50 games and I make the money about 50% of the time. I might go on a losing streak of about 3 games. Instead of taking a break, I buy into a tournament of $3.50. I might win a couple here and there, but then I might lose two in a row. Then I start buying into tournaments due to the fact I want to chase my loses.

Does this form of tilting happen to anyone else, or is it just me??

No, it happened to me on my first winning streak. I panicked and cashed everything out before busting my money.

I didn't care much for actual poker playing, I was curious about raw probabilities at the time so I made a 50$ deposit at PokerRoom and proceeded to get into 5$ single table sit n go tourneys.

All I did (ever) was go all-in preflop with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 1010 and AK. I folded everything else without a second thought until heads up.

This experiment quadrupled my bankroll in a matter of days. I kept doing this for a month every night, flirting along with variance, then I opened up my play just a bit and started actually getting into strategy and everything. I was now actually interested in poker, but my perspective of the game was skewed.

Half of my BR went up in smoke in like a week. I went back to SNGs thinking I was going to revert back to my "all-in or nothing" scheme with 10$ tourneys this time, but lost even more to my extreme displeasure. This is what you and I both did that is killing our game. Playing on tilt.

Confused, I cashed out my earnings and didn't play for months until I joined party poker, but I never got to be a "winning" player again. Because I was scared of losing again.

Truth is, I was a fish and just minimized the chances to get caught because I always went all or nothing on premium hands, securely playing low-stakes tournaments, so never putting my actual bankroll out there.

When the game of poker started catching up with me, I realized I was still a fish so I cashed out and took a break.

Maybe if I stuck in there long enough and reverted back to bullying 5$ tourneys I might've gone back up but I'll never find out and I don't really want to.

 

[leandr0s]

My problem with donks is finding their range. People open shoving 100BB in early stages of tournaments and i have to fold hands like 99.. but then they show A-rag or even any suited broadway or smaller pairs.. Should i be calling my whole stack in the early stages to try and build stack? some of them just shove their stack for value.. like if they get AA firstt hand they shove it so others will believe they shove any hand because they are donks.

 

[bprpm]

Remember donks are everywhere and that players plays relly good and sometimes they win, but remember in long term they loose, so you want that playeres, contributing with the buy in and a lot of times tey will increase your stack remember that...
Pros increases the money in the tournament, but remember they are pros, they are the best palyers of pokerstars, u shoud considerate that, and be carefull, they will do everything to put u out! The nivel of pros is incredible!

 

[canabero]

it depends of the speed of the game, in turbo is harder to play against donks because you are very limited to take decisons, you have to take high riskes, "pros" are very predictable, it's simple to play against them. but if the speed is slow you can take your time to choose a good hand to beat donks and against pro is harder, then you need more patience is not easy to get a high value whit strong hands against them.

 

[TheBigFinn]

Sklansky bucks. Look it up

If you are constantly winning Sklansky Bucks you'll be a winner in the long run.

There is a higher variance in low limit games and you need to play a different style when no one folds..

 

[Lheticus]

I've noticed that a lot of fish are quite aggressive with bad hands and I'm constantly paying them off. I'm also finding myself put all my chips in before the flop too.

For example last night I had AKs. UTG raised with AQs about 4BB. I re-raised to 12 BB, there was one caller who had 10 7s, and he called. UTG went all in so did I and the other caller. 10 7s ended up winning with a 4 card straight. This was on a final table, 7 players left, about 15k in the pot.

It's not normal, right?

I've had days like that where it seems like people are hitting against me right and left with the derpest crap imaginable. It does seem incredibly stupid when it happens. The way I believe I've found to rationalize it is that I'm one person playing against 5 or 8-9 dingbats, so for at least one of them to get lucky against me in any given hand or even nearly EVERY given hand is far from out of the question. You're outnumbered, pick off the donks when you actually have a chance to--more like a sniper than a gunslinger or sword fighter. And if they dodge your bullet, they dodge your bullet. Good cards happen to stupid people, and if that wasn't the case there would be way too few stupid people in this game for the pros to sustain themselves.

 

[LizardDan]

If you have good hand reading, donkeys are more profitable opponents. Pros give you more credit, but they'll absolute devastate you when you have the second best hand.

 

[adricarlan]

respect on tables

I just find that there is less respect

 

[adricarlan]

Good luck

Still winning on the flop, get all my chips in, they call and get lucky

 

[lauraPOKER]

Many times I feel line brodermath.. so thanks for the explanation.. the way some balkan guys play can be annoyingly disturbing!! And then pops up sweet old variance.
the stronger the patience, the bigger the stacks!!

^^^^ this.

Also if you can't handle the varience of the micros due to the "donkeys" then probably going to be eaten by sharks at higher stakes. It is the donkeys and fish who enable the micro stakes to possibly be crushed (highest winrate) of any limites there are.

It can be frustrating but learning to deal with the varience is certainly a big aspect of improving the game, make the correct decisions in the long run and increase the br will. Perhaps there are some holes in your game, tilt or just never believing they have anything (bluffing and sneaky plays that would become key in higher limits tend to mean nothing at micros).

 

[CallmeFloppy]

Certainly tougher to play pros than donks. After all, there is a reason the pros are pros and the donks are donks. Biggest thing with donks is to play sound fundamental poker. Don't bother getting fancy with them, they won't know the difference anyway and you'll just end up outplaying yourself.

 

[Latamgrinder]

Thats just fundamentally wrong, Pros will have way less expoitable leaks than a donk, perhaps you mean since vs a competent player that is on the same levelof thinking as you would be easier to hand read him, not getting leveled and/or be on a guessing game as in comparission when facing a donk, but is sooo more profitable to play vs donks/fishes/bad players cuz to exploit them it doesnt require much thinking, advance hand reading skills and/or fancy play postflop, in generall your winrates vs donks/fishes/bad players are going to be hell lot higher than vs Pros.