Donk betting to block a flush draw?

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kahuamp

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Hypothetical situation - Villain raises 3x, you call with pocket 8s trying to set mine.

Flop comes 3h, 8h, 2s - boom you have a set.....but

One of the general rules of poker I keep hearing about is - always check to the raiser, right?

Would a pot sized donk bet be more preferable in this situation? Assuming that otherwise, if you check, he checks behind and another heart comes on the turn - it could be a tough spot afterwards....at least that's how I see it in my limited knowledge.

What is your opinion on this?
 
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ph_il

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Check because you have a lock on the hand and you don't want your opponent folding worse. It's likely that flop missed your opponent completely, they might have an over pair or overcards like AK and might take a stab at the pot. Especially if they feel they need/want to get value from a draw.

You do protect against a flush draw by betting out, but you lose a lot of value that way if your opponent folds. If the board was ah 8h ks, then i'd lean more towards betting because they're more likely to have hit that flop and/or is more willing to play big draws on that flop than they would be to call a donk bet with, say, 910dd on a 3h 8h 2s flop.

Plus a heart on the turn doesn't automatically mean flush. They might not have it, but they might try to represent the flush by betting out on the turn (or continuing their betting), which you would have missed value on if you forced the fold on the flop. You still have redraws to a better hand, so don't worry about the potential flush on the turn hitting. It's still way behind a set, so you profiting more in the long run by not allowing your opponent to fold cheaply.

Of course, this is going to depend on your opponent. If they're aggressive and c-bet a lot, you'll want to check. If they check back a missed flops a lot, you might have to lead out on the turn to try and extract some value.
 
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kahuamp

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Thanks for the quick reply and solid advice.

Indeed I was considering the missed value as well, but as they say, you only remember your bad beats.

Guess I got coolered so many times with flushes on the turn, that I forgot about all the times when they missed or called their bluff.

Assuming a third heart comes on the turn and he bets, would it be better to call or raise - to put him to the test?
 
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Luvepoker

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Hypothetical situation - Villain raises 3x, you call with pocket 8s trying to set mine.

Flop comes 3h, 8h, 2s - boom you have a set.....but

One of the general rules of poker I keep hearing about is - always check to the raiser, right?

Would a pot sized donk bet be more preferable in this situation? Assuming that otherwise, if you check, he checks behind and another heart comes on the turn - it could be a tough spot afterwards....at least that's how I see it in my limited knowledge.

What is your opinion on this?

I pretty muck always check to the raiser but here a donk pots sized bet I think would be a very big mistake. We dont know where he raised from but think of all the hands he bet her that missed. They are all going to fold to this big bet. You are just loosing the value here with so many hand you have drawing near dead. Other than a flush draw if he has a bigger pair he is drawing to 2 outs. I would check this hand every time if I were in your spot.
 
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300HPGOD

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Agree with others but also factor in that most opponents will c bet much of the time and will also c bet even higher frequency if they have a flush draw in position. This spot plays much better to check with the intention of check raise (you dont have to always check raise but thats up to you) then to lead out. Leads will generate a lot of folds, check raising ensures at least one street of value from the hand. Also as previously mentioned, just because a hypothetical turn brings 3 to a suit on the board does not mean your opponent has the flush every time. This is very true in heads up pots.

I could see your fear here a little more if there were multiple players (at least 4 including you) you were going against where 2 hearts hand from opponents is more likely and c bets are less likely due to the number of players the initial raiser is going against in the pot. Against multiple players, I personally dont donk lead but you could here but I would not go pot sized but would go enough to make villains in the hand be drawing against the odds.
 
najisami

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Checking to the raiser is not really a rule of thumb. Maybe it used to be in the old days. But I'm not saying that you should necessarily donk bet. In fact, the tendencies of your opponent must also be taken in consideration. Against an aggressive player who would almost always make a C-bet, a check-raise or even a check-call (depending on the turn) could be the right thing to do. Otherwise, I would bet third or half the pot not only to protect, but to build since even if the flush hits, the chances that he would have it are kind of slim and your hand can still improve..
 
Al fred

Al fred

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what's his position? When you see this flop you should think that I'm holding top set, pair of 3s or 2s isn't likely to 3x bet so that means he's either has overpairs (might be lower than 8) or he's ace high, maybe any face cards combos which missed the flop. But I guess he still has lot of hands that miss this flop. So here if he got over pairs - he will cbet. If he has flush draw he would still bet probably. Even though he has Ace high, that's still big probability of his betting on flop. But betting pot sized bet against preflop raiser might ruin your top set which end up winning less than your hands' value. You can't put him on exact hands without any information right. Also, what you represent here by pot-sized betting? Keep yourself into his place and think that way.
 
Evan Jarvis

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Hypothetical situation - Villain raises 3x, you call with pocket 8s trying to set mine.

Flop comes 3h, 8h, 2s - boom you have a set.....but

One of the general rules of poker I keep hearing about is - always check to the raiser, right?

Would a pot sized donk bet be more preferable in this situation? Assuming that otherwise, if you check, he checks behind and another heart comes on the turn - it could be a tough spot afterwards....at least that's how I see it in my limited knowledge.

What is your opinion on this?

It will depend on your opponent.


Most opponents are going to make a continuation bet on this board and therefore you can get more money in the pot right now by check raising rather than you can by leading out.

If the board where however say T98 with a flush draw and your opponent will be less likely to fire a continuation bet then what you're discussing has more merit.

It will have even more merit in multiway pots where players are even less likely to fire a continuation bet with week holdings.

Also, most players will bet with a flush draw on the flop when checked to, so if it goes check/check and another heart comes off that's actually not as tough of a spot as you'd like, because most of their hand range for checking will not contain flush draws.

As you get more experience playing, you'll learn to read board textures and know on what boards you can expect a continuation bet from your opponent most of the time vs boards where you can expect them to do a large amount of checking.

Be careful with using words like 'always' and 'never' in poker because they're not accurate
More useful terms to use will be 'most of the time' and 'rarely/infrequently'

We need to remember this is a game of probabilities and not absolutes and therefore by starting with this baseline for our thinking we'll come to better conclusions.

Here's a little video on flop play you may find useful, hope it helps!

(It's an oldie but a goodie!)
 
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Mahdi

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Until you learn what is a donk bet is and when to use it just don't use it, no real need for that
 
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Murph1969

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I’m just learning like you, but I NEVER want to give my opponent a free flush draw unless I have no intention of continuing in the hand or I can beat a flush.
 
henriquemaduro

henriquemaduro

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Hypothetical situation - Villain raises 3x, you call with pocket 8s trying to set mine.

Flop comes 3h, 8h, 2s - boom you have a set.....but

One of the general rules of poker I keep hearing about is - always check to the raiser, right?

Would a pot sized donk bet be more preferable in this situation? Assuming that otherwise, if you check, he checks behind and another heart comes on the turn - it could be a tough spot afterwards....at least that's how I see it in my limited knowledge.

What is your opinion on this?

I agree and I would donk bet in this situation to avoid the flush draw.
 
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fundiver199

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Evan Jarvis has already given a very good reply. I just want to add, that before even considering, if we want to make a bet, we need to understand, why we are betting. In this case we flopped the nuts, so clearly we are betting for value. This mean, we want our opponent to continue with worse, and for that reason we should not choose something as large as a full pot sized bet. If we bet that large, they have a very easy fold with all their hands, that missed the board, like AK, AQ and so on and so forth. So if we are going to lead out, it needs to be for a smaller sizing, where those hands might at least consider calling.

It sounds like, Hero wants to "protect against a flushdraw", but thats not the best way of thinking about the situation. First of all our opponent has a range, and flushdraws are only a small part of that range. So we can not choose a line, which is only good against a flushdraw. And even if they do have a flushdraw, they are not going to fold it on the flop, or at least they should not. So if we bet full pot, we are getting value from a flushdraw, but we are not preventing our opponent from completing it.

A lot of poker players hate getting drawn out on, but its part of the game and something, we just need to get used to. The good news is, that with a set we have a strong redraw, and if our opponent makes a flush, but we make a full house, we can probably win their entire stack. So another heart on the turn is not nearly as bad as, if we had for instance an overpair. We also still beat a lot of hands, and even though it might slow down action, we can still win a decent sized pot at showdown against for instance an overpair.
 
0546474

0546474

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Hypothetical situation - Villain raises 3x, you call with pocket 8s trying to set mine.

Flop comes 3h, 8h, 2s - boom you have a set.....but

One of the general rules of poker I keep hearing about is - always check to the raiser, right?

Would a pot sized donk bet be more preferable in this situation? Assuming that otherwise, if you check, he checks behind and another heart comes on the turn - it could be a tough spot afterwards....at least that's how I see it in my limited knowledge.

What is your opinion on this?


If your opponent has a flush draw, the chances of him improving to a flush on the river are about 19.6% !!! The probability that your set on the river will increase to a full house is about 22.7% !!! Besides, you already have a strong combination, and your opponent only has a chance !!!
PS: This is just information, draw your own conclusions !!!
 
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