We get a lot of discussion on here around what to do when you're trying to build a bankroll from a small amount. Maybe you've just had a freeroll cash, maybe a friend's been kind enough to transfer you a small amount or maybe you've deposited in the past and you've only got a few bucks left. How do we take that amount and turn it into a real bankroll?

There are tips everywhere including here: Building a Bankroll from Nothing

What I've tried to do below is dump the bulk of my experience on the subject into one post. For those wondering about my credentials, I've been playing for the past couple of years on a roll built from freeroll cashes. I'll warn readers from the outset, I don't have any easy answers or shortcuts. But I think what's written here might be helpful in at least dispelling some of the myths and crazy ideas people have about undertaking this task and hopefully keep them on track while they're attempting it.

THERE IS NO MAGIC BULLET

There's loads of discussion on this point - time after time people have asked "What's the BEST game to play with a bankroll of (insert tiny amount here)?"

The truth is there IS no answer to that question. Everybody's different and we all have different strengths and weaknesses as players. I might have built a roll playing nothing but small stakes limit mixed games. Does that mean it's going to work for you? Dear gawd no! That'd be suicide for most people, since most people don't have the first clue how to play mixed games.

That's an extreme example, I know. It should be obvious to most people that if they suck at mixed games then they shouldn't be putting any of their baby bankroll on a mixed game table.

But there's other advice that sounds more reasonable but can be just as dangerous. How often have we heard, for example, that limit hold 'em is a great way to build a bankroll because it doesn't carry the risk of losing your whole stack in one hand like NLHE does? I know there's more than one lesson in the Full Tilt Academy that suggests it and it sounds perfectly reasonable, but guess what? If you suck at LHE, slowly but surely (and maybe not even that slowly) you're still going to lose your roll.

My point is, there is no magic bullet. There's no one game where everybody who plays it surely but steadily builds a roll. Far and away the best game to play is the one that YOU are best at. That might be LHE, it might be STTs, it might be $2NL 6-max. It doesn't matter. What matters is that YOU play YOUR best game, not someone else's.

I have an exeption to this rule regarding certain games NOT to play, BTW, which I'll discuss in a minute. But for the moment, let's move on to...

PICK A GAME AND STICK TO IT

Once you've settled on your best game, I'm recommending that you stick to it and play nothing else. A lot of people talk about how they played STTs for a little while and had some small wins, then they tried LHE for a while then lost the rest of their bankroll playing HU cash games.

There's a couple of reasons I think you should play just one game. The first is that we want to leverage our skill as best we can. It makes sense that our skill advantage will be biggest when we're playing our best game. The second reason is that we'll learn more when we concentrate on just one game. If we skip from game to game to game we won't be improving much at any of them because we won't be playing them for long enough. If we stick to one game not only are we maximising our skill edge, we're also maximising our chances to get better at the game, increase our skill edge and build our roll.

There'll be time for dabbling in mixed games and learning new things later, after we've built a stable roll.

YOU HAVE TO GET LUCKY

This is the bit that's going to hurt for some people. Even when we stick to just playing our best game, we're STILL going to need to get lucky in order to build our roll. By definition we've probably got less than good BRM dictates we should have to play in the lowest stakes games. If you're starting off with enough for just one buy in obviously you'll need to get very lucky - you'll need to win in the first game you play in and then keep winning in quite a number after that so that you've got some breathing room.

Even if you start off with, say, 10 or more buy ins though you'll still need a bit of luck to avoid a downswing that wipes out your roll. They happen all the time to players with full size rolls and there's nothing that says it can't happen to us either.

What I'm saying is remember that luck plays a part. Pick your best game and play your best. If you still wind up busto, don't dwell on it or let it get you down. Just pick yourself up, start over and hope for a little more luck next time.

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, STOP PLAYING MTTs!

Here's the bit where I'm going to contradict myself.

If I were to tell you I'd just made $10 from a freeroll and I was going to take it straight to a PLO cash game table to start trying to build a roll from it, how many people would think I was mad?

I think it might be more than a few. A select few of them will have prior knowledge of how much I suck at PLO. But others, even without that knowledge, would likely point out that the variance in PLO can be a killer and I'd be better off playing something with a more stable return. They'd probably be right too.

But here's the thing - a lot of those same people probably wouldn't bat an eyelid if I said I was going to take that $10 and play the Daily Dollar or something with it. Which is a funny thing, because as far as variance goes things don't really get much more swingy than multi-table tournaments. You certainly want a lot more than 20-30 buy ins to be rolled for them.

As discussed above, we already need to get very lucky to build a roll from nothing. We don't need to compound our problems by stacking variance against us - instead, we need to concentrate on games that offer us at least some chance of grinding a slow but steady path upwards. That usually means ring games or single-table SnGs and I'm recommending that, at least for the initial stages, you steer clear of MTTs and the horrible swings they bring. Even if you think they're your best game.

BE MILITANT AND CONSERVATIVE ABOUT BRM

In the beginning we're already going to be playing with bad BRM. There's not a lot we can do about it if we're not even rolled for the lowest stakes other than play our best and hope we run our roll up to a point where we ARE properly rolled for the level we're playing.

For that to happen though we have to be militant about the stakes we play. No playing in some random MTT or forum game or whatever, even as a one-off, unless we're rolled for it. Things like that are luxuries that we'll have later when we've built a stable roll.

We also need to be conservative with our bankroll. Most systems will tell you that if you've got 20-30 buy-ins for a given level you're rolled for it. I'm going to suggest you consider yourself "rolled" for a level when you've got 50 or more, that you don't move up in levels until you've got that much or more for the new level and that you move straight back down if you run bad at the new level. We worked hard to build that roll, we have to protect it as best we can from variance. Don't be ashamed of being a bankroll nit.

DON'T GET HUNG UP ON BONUSES

Free money is a beautiful thing. We all love it, and it's especially attractive when you don't have very much of it to start with.

Free money in the form of bonuses, however, usually comes with strings attached and those strings are almost always having to grind out x amount of frequent player points in real money games. Unlocked right, bonuses can be a fantastic way to pad your earnings and move your bankroll along faster. But done wrong they can send you hurtling backwards.

Take the recent Rush Week promo at Full Tilt. Anybody could participate, and to unlock the bronze level $10 bonus you had to grind out 10 FTPs a day on the Rush tables for seven days straight. Pretty sweet deal, right? Maybe, maybe not. If you're not rolled for the minimum $5NL that you'd need to play to earn the points, or if you're not any good at Rush, then taking this bonus on would be a terrible idea - chances are you'll end up losing more than you stood to win in bonuses and you might jeopardise your whole bankroll in the process.

The same goes for other things people consider doing to unlock other bonuses, like adding more tables than they're comfortable with to run points up faster or playing at higher stakes than they're rolled for. It's a slippery slope, I'm suggesting you just avoid it altogether.

As long as there's competition between online poker sites there'll be bonuses, so there's always another one somewhere around the corner. Stick with the plan, work through the bonuses that you can get safely by just and just playing your normal game at your normal limits and ignore the ones you can't get.

STOP TALKING AND START DOING
(OR "NOBODY ACTUALLY READS YOUR BLOG ANYWAY SO WHY STRESS YOURSELF")

Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry. We've all seen it - someone comes along on a board or starts a blog talking a whole lot about how they're going to build a roll from nothing or how they've got this freeroll cash and they're going to run it up and make loads of money. Some of the dedicated ones even give us day by day or game by game updates for a short period... until the inevitable post where they tell us they're busto either because they played bad, they didn't follow BRM, they had to withdraw all their money for some inane reason or, my personal favourite, the donks ate their bankroll.

Save yourself the time and embarassment by talking less and DOING more. Use the time to actually review your games, rather than telling the world about every single bad beat you ever get. Post actual problem hands for analysis and ask meaningful questions that might help you improve your game, rather than telling everyone about every tiny fluctuation in your bankroll.

You're also putting unnecessary pressure on yourself. Chances are somewhere in the back of your mind there's a though along the lines of "What will I be telling my readers after this session?" and that can have an adverse effect on your game. So stop talking and start doing instead.

That's it, for the moment at least. Run good y'all.

tldr but I like the bullet points.

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

tldr but I like the bullet points.

Yeah, figured it'd be a good idea to make them big and bold

pretty much .. you covered it all.. good post man..would really help newbies like me .. appreciate the effort !

Nice 4,0xx post!

But a donkey really ate my bankroll!

On a more serious note, great post and one I would enjoy reading over and over again even if I have reached the upper echelons of poker; which would probably be never.

I have managed to build a couple of BRs on a few sites without depositing. My current FT roll was started from winning freerolls and using that money to play STTs until I moved to cash and started to actually make money lol.

Helped out a lot by the take 2 bonus, which was so easy to get, I think it was probably one that was exempt from Oz's rules. But all in all I pretty much followed the same guidelines, got a bit lucky and it worked a treat. My roll is currently 200-300 depending on whether I decide to play good or not.

Great guide Oz anyone in a similar situation should read this daily .

Ok, I finally conceded and read the post. The text was as good or better than the bullet points! Really good post.

Now how do I turn $3.67 into $1mirron???

OP obviously trying to jump start a bankroll with a POTM award...

good post. I always have trouble building a bankroll of my own

I hope at least some people who can benefit from advice like this will pay attention because there's lots of good stuff consolidated here, more than they're likely to find most of the time.

One thing I'll add is to consider your win rate. As an artificial example, if you're playing NL5 and grind your roll up to $500, applying the conservative 50 buyin guideline indicates you're sufficiently funded to move up to NL10. You are, but if you got there by winning an average of 10 cents an hour, your game probably isn't ready.

Ship the nickels IMO.

Pick a game and stick to it - disagree.

Ive recently read dusty schmidts book and he advises to stick to 1 game also but ive never ever liked this advice.

If ur not a holdem player like I am (I like stud 8), its hard to find games running online or even harder finding them live. And if the game is running there are a lot of situations where the table is just not made for optimum profit so u still cant play although 1 is running.

So I have to play Omaha, holdem, stud, or whatever I can find besides the game im best at.

I can see ur point of telling some1 to become a savant in 1 rather than a jack of all trades- ull get better faster at that 1 game so u should make more money faster. But at the low levels ur talking about for building a bankroll it doesn’t take a lot to become good enough to turn a profit at those tables so id tell ppl to play various games rather than just 1.

and even if u are a holdem player-forget tilt and variance of playing 1 game, after playing thousands of hands of micro holdem I would get bored of playing the same ol game with the same ppl. Boredom would start to cut into my profits, id start to get “adventurous” with certain hands. Lololol.

Besides just plain boredom, if u stick to 1 game at the same level -ur gonna end up playing the same ppl and that’s bad. unless theyre really silly, theyre gonna smarten up to ur ways and again its gonna be harder to make a profit off them. If u just play different games at similar levels ull play different players that might not be used to u and u can make more off em.

Love the posting
A lot of effort went into it


But I got a few more disagreements with ur posting, bbl for em loololololol

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

Ship the nickels IMO.

oɯı s1ǝʞɔıu ǝɥʇ dıɥs

Great post, I do alot you talk about. I won a couple of freerolls over a 2 week period (55.00). I deciced to use patience and play the cash tables, but only .02/.04 blinds until I was able to build to 100.00, then I moved to the .05/.10 cash tables and so on. I do not play MTT tournaments unless the buy-in is 2% or less of my bankroll. It is a slow climb, but I have been able to make withdrawls without ever depositing. Here is some of my rules when playing,
1. Wife can not be around (she will bug the crap out of me)
2. T.V. must be turned off
3. Dog must be taken out prior to playing so I dont have to do it later
4. Cell phone turned to silence

With all these distractions out of the way, I have been able to play alot better and consistant.

Thanks for the comments guys - and to c9 and Belgo for introducing me to a meme I'd somehow missed

Originally Posted by MaxiRodriguez

Helped out a lot by the take 2 bonus, which was so easy to get, I think it was probably one that was exempt from Oz's rules.

That's a good example - don't get me wrong, BTW, I'm not saying don't go for bonuses. I'm just saying don't do stupid things to chase them like add more tables than you can profitably play or move up in stakes before you're rolled for it.

Something like Take 2 was perfect because you could unlock it pretty easily playing your regular game at the lowest stakes.

Originally Posted by Mr Whatever

I can see ur point of telling some1 to become a savant in 1 rather than a jack of all trades- ull get better faster at that 1 game so u should make more money faster. But at the low levels ur talking about for building a bankroll it doesn’t take a lot to become good enough to turn a profit at those tables so id tell ppl to play various games rather than just 1.

Besides just plain boredom, if u stick to 1 game at the same level -ur gonna end up playing the same ppl and that’s bad. unless theyre really silly, theyre gonna smarten up to ur ways and again its gonna be harder to make a profit off them. If u just play different games at similar levels ull play different players that might not be used to u and u can make more off em.

Obviously if you're already good enough to win in multiple games then you don't need to be taking advice from me

We can agree to disagree on this point, but a few thoughts on your post with the "average" player in mind:

Even if it doesn't take that long to get "good" at a new game, in the time we're learning it we'll still be jeopardising a big chunk of our tiny bankroll. And we're likely to take a big pounding during that learning period because, as you allude to above, the fish:reg ratio in a lot of the alternative games is unfavourable.

I'm all for people learning multiple games - I know I won't be happy myself as a player until I can at least hold my own in most forms of the game. I'm just saying that we should wait until we've got a stable bankroll before we go risking any of it at games that we suck at.

As for boredom, I found getting good enough at a game to beat it consistently went a long way to relieving it

In my experience if you're playing a game with a large player pool (like no limit STTs or ring games) then you won't be running across the same opponents all that often and even when you do they'll rarely be adjusting well enough to your style of play for it to make any real dent in your profitability.

I'll concede that it may be a problem if your best game is something like 5/10c Stud where there's rarely more than a couple of tables running and at least half the players on them are regs. But for the majority, who are likely to be playing micro stakes NLHE in one form or another, I'll stick by my suggestion.

Great rules to follow! Def. taking notes.

Originally Posted by OzExorcist

We get a lot of discussion on here around what to do when you're trying to build a bankroll from a small amount. Maybe you've just had a freeroll cash, maybe a friend's been kind enough to transfer you a small amount or maybe you've deposited in the past and you've only got a few bucks left. How do we take that amount and turn it into a real bankroll?

What I've tried to do below is dump the bulk of my experience on the subject into one post. For those wondering about my credentials, I've been playing for the past couple of years on a roll built from freeroll cashes. I'll warn readers from the outset, I don't have any easy answers or shortcuts. But I think what's written here might be helpful in at least dispelling some of the myths and crazy ideas people have about undertaking this task and hopefully keep them on track while they're attempting it.

THERE IS NO MAGIC BULLET

There's loads of discussion on this point - time after time people have asked "What's the BEST game to play with a bankroll of (insert tiny amount here)?"

The truth is there IS no answer to that question. Everybody's different and we all have different strengths and weaknesses as players. I might have built a roll playing nothing but small stakes limit mixed games. Does that mean it's going to work for you? Dear gawd no! That'd be suicide for most people, since most people don't have the first clue how to play mixed games.

That's an extreme example, I know. It should be obvious to most people that if they suck at mixed games then they shouldn't be putting any of their baby bankroll on a mixed game table.

But there's other advice that sounds more reasonable but can be just as dangerous. How often have we heard, for example, that limit hold 'em is a great way to build a bankroll because it doesn't carry the risk of losing your whole stack in one hand like NLHE does? I know there's more than one lesson in the Full Tilt Academy that suggests it and it sounds perfectly reasonable, but guess what? If you suck at LHE, slowly but surely (and maybe not even that slowly) you're still going to lose your roll.

My point is, there is no magic bullet. There's no one game where everybody who plays it surely but steadily builds a roll. Far and away the best game to play is the one that YOU are best at. That might be LHE, it might be STTs, it might be $2NL 6-max. It doesn't matter. What matters is that YOU play YOUR best game, not someone else's.

I have an exeption to this rule regarding certain games NOT to play, BTW, which I'll discuss in a minute. But for the moment, let's move on to...

PICK A GAME AND STICK TO IT

Once you've settled on your best game, I'm recommending that you stick to it and play nothing else. A lot of people talk about how they played STTs for a little while and had some small wins, then they tried LHE for a while then lost the rest of their bankroll playing HU cash games.

There's a couple of reasons I think you should play just one game. The first is that we want to leverage our skill as best we can. It makes sense that our skill advantage will be biggest when we're playing our best game. The second reason is that we'll learn more when we concentrate on just one game. If we skip from game to game to game we won't be improving much at any of them because we won't be playing them for long enough. If we stick to one game not only are we maximising our skill edge, we're also maximising our chances to get better at the game, increase our skill edge and build our roll.

There'll be time for dabbling in mixed games and learning new things later, after we've built a stable roll.

YOU HAVE TO GET LUCKY

This is the bit that's going to hurt for some people. Even when we stick to just playing our best game, we're STILL going to need to get lucky in order to build our roll. By definition we've probably got less than good BRM dictates we should have to play in the lowest stakes games. If you're starting off with enough for just one buy in obviously you'll need to get very lucky - you'll need to win in the first game you play in and then keep winning in quite a number after that so that you've got some breathing room.

Even if you start off with, say, 10 or more buy ins though you'll still need a bit of luck to avoid a downswing that wipes out your roll. They happen all the time to players with full size rolls and there's nothing that says it can't happen to us either.

What I'm saying is remember that luck plays a part. Pick your best game and play your best. If you still wind up busto, don't dwell on it or let it get you down. Just pick yourself up, start over and hope for a little more luck next time.

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, STOP PLAYING MTTs!

Here's the bit where I'm going to contradict myself.

If I were to tell you I'd just made $10 from a freeroll and I was going to take it straight to a PLO cash game table to start trying to build a roll from it, how many people would think I was mad?

I think it might be more than a few. A select few of them will have prior knowledge of how much I suck at PLO. But others, even without that knowledge, would likely point out that the variance in PLO can be a killer and I'd be better off playing something with a more stable return. They'd probably be right too.

But here's the thing - a lot of those same people probably wouldn't bat an eyelid if I said I was going to take that $10 and play the Daily Dollar or something with it. Which is a funny thing, because as far as variance goes things don't really get much more swingy than multi-table tournaments. You certainly want a lot more than 20-30 buy ins to be rolled for them.

As discussed above, we already need to get very lucky to build a roll from nothing. We don't need to compound our problems by stacking variance against us - instead, we need to concentrate on games that offer us at least some chance of grinding a slow but steady path upwards. That usually means ring games or single-table SnGs and I'm recommending that, at least for the initial stages, you steer clear of MTTs and the horrible swings they bring. Even if you think they're your best game.

BE MILITANT AND CONSERVATIVE ABOUT BRM

In the beginning we're already going to be playing with bad BRM. There's not a lot we can do about it if we're not even rolled for the lowest stakes other than play our best and hope we run our roll up to a point where we ARE properly rolled for the level we're playing.

For that to happen though we have to be militant about the stakes we play. No playing in some random MTT or forum game or whatever, even as a one-off, unless we're rolled for it. Things like that are luxuries that we'll have later when we've built a stable roll.

We also need to be conservative with our bankroll. Most systems will tell you that if you've got 20-30 buy-ins for a given level you're rolled for it. I'm going to suggest you consider yourself "rolled" for a level when you've got 50 or more, that you don't move up in levels until you've got that much or more for the new level and that you move straight back down if you run bad at the new level. We worked hard to build that roll, we have to protect it as best we can from variance. Don't be ashamed of being a bankroll nit.

DON'T GET HUNG UP ON BONUSES

Free money is a beautiful thing. We all love it, and it's especially attractive when you don't have very much of it to start with.

Free money in the form of bonuses, however, usually comes with strings attached and those strings are almost always having to grind out x amount of frequent player points in real money games. Unlocked right, bonuses can be a fantastic way to pad your earnings and move your bankroll along faster. But done wrong they can send you hurtling backwards.

Take the recent Rush Week promo at Full Tilt. Anybody could participate, and to unlock the bronze level $10 bonus you had to grind out 10 FTPs a day on the Rush tables for seven days straight. Pretty sweet deal, right? Maybe, maybe not. If you're not rolled for the minimum $5NL that you'd need to play to earn the points, or if you're not any good at Rush, then taking this bonus on would be a terrible idea - chances are you'll end up losing more than you stood to win in bonuses and you might jeopardise your whole bankroll in the process.

The same goes for other things people consider doing to unlock other bonuses, like adding more tables than they're comfortable with to run points up faster or playing at higher stakes than they're rolled for. It's a slippery slope, I'm suggesting you just avoid it altogether.

As long as there's competition between online poker sites there'll be bonuses, so there's always another one somewhere around the corner. Stick with the plan, work through the bonuses that you can get safely by just and just playing your normal game at your normal limits and ignore the ones you can't get.

STOP TALKING AND START DOING
(OR "NOBODY ACTUALLY READS YOUR BLOG ANYWAY SO WHY STRESS YOURSELF")

Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry. We've all seen it - someone comes along on a board or starts a blog talking a whole lot about how they're going to build a roll from nothing or how they've got this freeroll cash and they're going to run it up and make loads of money. Some of the dedicated ones even give us day by day or game by game updates for a short period... until the inevitable post where they tell us they're busto either because they played bad, they didn't follow BRM, they had to withdraw all their money for some inane reason or, my personal favourite, the donks ate their bankroll.

Save yourself the time and embarassment by talking less and DOING more. Use the time to actually review your games, rather than telling the world about every single bad beat you ever get. Post actual problem hands for analysis and ask meaningful questions that might help you improve your game, rather than telling everyone about every tiny fluctuation in your bankroll.

You're also putting unnecessary pressure on yourself. Chances are somewhere in the back of your mind there's a though along the lines of "What will I be telling my readers after this session?" and that can have an adverse effect on your game. So stop talking and start doing instead.

That's it, for the moment at least. Run good y'all.

Great post I just read thru quickly and did take notes. But I will be back to reresd it several times before it sinks in. I don't always get evrything at once and have to do it over and over so I learn. Thanks again, Bigbigbucs

Nice post there OzExorcist (https://www.cardschat.com/members/ozexorcist/) and read some of it and it's not bad

Originally Posted by bigbigbucs

Great post I just read thru quickly and did take notes. But I will be back to reresd it several times before it sinks in. I don't always get evrything at once and have to do it over and over so I learn. Thanks again, Bigbigbucs

quote was tl;dr

Ozexorcist, regardless of what I think of any1s skill level (including my own mediocre nonsense lolol) id be a fool to ignore solid recommendations.

I may disagree with you on certain issues, but u have backed ur opinions up with solid reasoning, and not nonsense. so ive been taking ur recommendations very seriously, although I may disagree with u now. U never know, I might look at the posting later and say “I was wrong, down the line”. but the important thing for me is just thinking about the topics ppl are talking about.

Now . . . . . concerning these mtts with ur bankroll building strategy Lololololol

For crying out loud, stop playing mtts!-disagree, really, lolo

I read this and ur stuck on the variance of tourns. its like reading dusty schmidts book again lolol. He gives the same reason.

Id advise to play ur cash games, freerolls and take a lil of ur winning and play tourns. tourns are a good way to build a small bankroll up if u use them smartly. Tourns aren’t that bad for ppl either, because what u risk is only what u invest. And the lil amounts were talking about shouldn’t put a huge dent in ur bankroll if u lose it. At the cash table ull have less variance than a tourn but when u lose u could lose a lot more.

And what I mean by smartly is u have to find satellites tourns that have great cashing opportunities. Not those winner take all satys. And these satellites have to lead into tourns that also have great cashing opportunities. Tourns are means for turning lil to nothing into something. and that’s what u need with a small bankroll.

Im gonna use the daily dollar as a example since it was brought it up. For starters, ur not gonna be putting up the $1 entry fee to get in, nope. There are too many easy satellites to get into that tourn with decent to good payouts.

If u play the .30$ satellite tourn to it- like 50+ ppl play the tourn and there is usually no more than 250 in it. That’s a 1 in 5 cash ratio, which is very good. All u have to do is double up 1 time and get a little extra like up to 3500-4000 chips and ull make it. Not very hard.

If u decide not play the daily dollar- take the change out of the 1$ and use it for tomorrows saty again. Yeah, ur not gonna make it everyday because of variance but getting that 1 double up isn’t that hard and u should be ok.

If u decide to play the daily dollar all u have to do to cash to make $2 is last 3hrs or get to about 12k in chips. Yeah theres variance but the objective set here to is just cash because of ur low bankroll. And again it isn’t that hard and u have to remember u only paid .30$ to get in. if u can last to numbers that u would expect to cash in a full tilt freeroll (45) we’re talking about a huge boost to ur $10 or small bankroll.


And this isn’t an isolated occurance. full tilt has had numerous saty tourns with nice payouts to get ppl into bigger well paid tourns over the years so it’s a reliable idea. These tourns aren’t going away. Im sure Pokerstars and all the online sites do the same.

But if u decide to play in any of the satilietes or tourns think of it as a cash game and scope out what ur gonna need to do to win. For the satillate for the daily dollar don’t take my advice, sit there and look at the number of entrants, the payouts, watch the type of players that play in em and see how many chips ur gonna need to cash in the tourn.

Stick with the cash games and freerolls, but invest a lil in tourns. to ignore tourns isn’t right.

And I mean if ur worried about .30 to $2, u probably shouldnt be playing cash games but doing freerolls anyway.

Very nice post OZ

And Mr your sort of suggesting what OZ did anyway find a game and stick to it, I know a member here who grinded those DD sats into a respectable roll by sticking to a plan. Fwiw when I first started out I played some tourneys and had a nice lil score for a noob here and there and guess what I did with those scores played more mtts and went nowhere. What Oz is suggesting is good for any beginners game, find a game you can play often and grind the hell out of it while you learn poker. For some its 9 man 18 man 45man sngs for some its cash but if you play the same thing day in and day out you will understand that game more and the transition to other games while hard for some is ok because your basic poker knowledge is there.

If you want you increase your roll Oz has some great advice.

Solid advice wish it was around when I was trying to scratch out a bankroll from nothing. I'm one of those guys who started a thread and gave you a blow by blow account of my BR. I also stuck with freerolls and playmoney tourneys($40 freeroll on fulltilt) way too long. Waited till I had $40 to play 2nl turns out I would have only needed $4. Would of saved me months of play. Great advice on BRM too I use something close to it myself. Oh and the bonuses man I can still get hung up on them. Better to learn how to win than to clear a bonus.

Originally Posted by Mr Whatever

And what I mean by smartly is u have to find satellites tourns that have great cashing opportunities. Not those winner take all satys. And these satellites have to lead into tourns that also have great cashing opportunities. Tourns are means for turning lil to nothing into something. and that’s what u need with a small bankroll.

Im gonna use the daily dollar as a example since it was brought it up. For starters, ur not gonna be putting up the $1 entry fee to get in, nope. There are too many easy satellites to get into that tourn with decent to good payouts.

If u play the .30$ satellite tourn to it- like 50+ ppl play the tourn and there is usually no more than 250 in it. That’s a 1 in 5 cash ratio, which is very good. All u have to do is double up 1 time and get a little extra like up to 3500-4000 chips and ull make it. Not very hard.

If u decide not play the daily dollar- take the change out of the 1$ and use it for tomorrows saty again. Yeah, ur not gonna make it everyday because of variance but getting that 1 double up isn’t that hard and u should be ok.

If u decide to play the daily dollar all u have to do to cash to make $2 is last 3hrs or get to about 12k in chips. Yeah theres variance but the objective set here to is just cash because of ur low bankroll. And again it isn’t that hard and u have to remember u only paid .30$ to get in. if u can last to numbers that u would expect to cash in a full tilt freeroll (45) we’re talking about a huge boost to ur $10 or small bankroll.


And this isn’t an isolated occurance. full tilt has had numerous saty tourns with nice payouts to get ppl into bigger well paid tourns over the years so it’s a reliable idea. These tourns aren’t going away. Im sure Pokerstars and all the online sites do the same.

If you not rolled for the tournament then your not rolled to satellite into it. It can be a good idea to build your roll from these satellites themselfs and never play the tourney(not sure this is still allowed to cash out of them though). Take your eg of 250 player satty the odds are 4:1 against you winning. Meaning your spending $1.50 on average to enter a $1 tourney. Yes you will probably spend a lot less than that after your factor in your edge but it still is bad BRM to satty into a tourney you couldn't buy into.

Originally Posted by cardplayer52

If you not rolled for the tournament then your not rolled to satellite into it. It can be a good idea to build your roll from these satellites themselfs and never play the tourney(not sure this is still allowed to cash out of them though). Take your eg of 250 player satty the odds are 4:1 against you winning. Meaning your spending $1.50 on average to enter a $1 tourney. Yes you will probably spend a lot less than that after your factor in your edge but it still is bad BRM to satty into a tourney you couldn't buy into.

Exactly ^

As far as your (Mr whatever) notion while playing tourney to take into consideration 'how many chips you'll need to win it'... this is nonsensical. In an MTT we're adapting to each situation at the time, in later stages alot of that is about stack sizes and how they relate to your stack & to the blinds.

MTT's aren't my recommendation for a newer player to focus on either (unless you're planning on doing some homework on playing MTT's so that you'll be entering them with some kind of an edge on your opponents). MTT regs. recommend having 100buyins in your roll for MTT play.. there's a reason for this. Sure in super micros, cashing at 20-25% itm isn't hard to accomplish but big cashes are going to be few & far between. (although when I first deposited online, my very first game I ever played was 'The Ferguson' and I actually placed 2nd in it for $114.00 which was kind of a nice start... although I'm sure I would've done better if hadn't had that tourney experience/cash and if I had just stuck to one game type instead.

I'd HIGHLY recommend sticking to just ONE game... ie. if it's NLHE SNG.. then only play the 9plyr. (reason being.. get to know the game.. get to know it inside & out). If you're new & are jumping around from 9plyr. to 18's then to 45's, back to 9's etc., it'll take you far longer to become a winning player. When you stick to just one format you will become so aware of how the games typically play out which is a big advantage.

As far as running into the same players.... if you're playing the micros there's a HUGE pool of players in these.. and even if you've played around 100games you'll likely only see two players you've played before (maybe more as you play more....ie. I'll often see 3.. sometimes 4 on my table... or if in a 45man sng.. I'll have history with maybe 15 or 20 of them (smaller pool). This is no big deal at all. I can use it to my advantage if I have history with my opponents... especially if I've taken adequate notes and there was some stuff of particular note from the past (metagame stuff). I do this all the time.

The reasoning I think that branching out to other forms of poker is good, is because my experience has been that it generally makes you a better player overall... in the longrun. BUT.. to be just starting out & to be attempting to become a winning player.. I would NEVER recommend this ever.

When I started out I jumped around at games a bunch & it wasn't until I really just stuck to one form at a time that my bankroll began to grow.

As far as having the same players on your table goes (for SNG & MTT play).. another huge benefit is... it really helps you to be able to identify the regulars quickly. (< how could this not be a good thing?) Personally I prefer it if I've got history with half or more of the table as I can use it to my advantage... playing randoms... ffs.. you never know what they're all about (esp. in early levels).. when you get some of them donkbetting POT on flops, etc. (have they hit a fr'gn monster.. or more likely air.. or MPGK, or something.. or a draw.. who knows... point is you don't know if you have no history with them... even if their play is 'typical' say of an overaggro spewy player (with history it's far easier... these players don't switch it up much if at all).

BEST WAY to build your bankroll on UB/AP/Doylesroom/Cake

Put it all up on blackjack table and double it up few times.

Orifice, my main point was that a person should scope out a few tourns of a particular kind before they buy into it. Like scoping out a cash table before sitting down to it. I don’t think that is nonsensical.

I know ur familiar with a lot of the full tilt tourns and u know most of them have distinct predictable characteristics to them. Like how long they run, how many enter it, the payout and so forth. So I disagree with u in thinking that a distinct online tourn is magically different everytime it runs. U should also be able to conclude by watching this 1 particular tourn- how long and how much ur gonna need in order to hit the money in that tourn. Whether it’s the daily buck tourn or whatever.

If u don’t know these things, then u probably shouldn’t enter that tourn until u find out more about that particular tourn. But hey, a lot of ppl just sit down to a cash game without scoping out any of the players and just go with it, why not a tourn. . . . lolol

The two examples of cashing I gave earlier, of the saty turbo tourn to the daily dollar and the daily dollar tourn are very close or right on for cashing and any1 that is familiar with those tourns would probably agree. I just gave those 2 examples since they are lo buyin tourns that some1 might consider.

Your 2nd question of why it would be bad idea for beginners not to play ppl they are used to? I wrote about it, u can look it over if u wish. Ur not a beginner orifice, lololololoololo, will a beginner that is trying to build a baby bankroll make the adjustments in their game that u can? Come on, lolo.

To be honest, I think telling ppl that are trying to build a small bankroll to play only nl holdem isn’t the best way to go about building a baby bankroll anyway now that I think about it because of the high variance and swings. Theyd lose their bankroll more often and end up rebuilding it all over again.

Id suggest a game other than nl holdem to build a baby bankroll, so ud have to learn another game other than holdem anyway. Not every1 is dusty Schmidt and are more likely to go broke playing a nl or pl game anyway.

so still id say play ur freerolls, and cash games, but put aside a lil for tourns.

But before u go on any type of bankroll building u should have all the basics covered by just doing the playchip tables anyway and avoid the cash tables or cash tourns. -Unless u want to pay for lessons that u coulda gotten for free?

Originally Posted by Mr Whatever

If u decide to play the daily dollar all u have to do to cash to make $2 is last 3hrs or get to about 12k in chips. Yeah theres variance but the objective set here to is just cash because of ur low bankroll. And again it isn’t that hard and u have to remember u only paid .30$ to get in. if u can last to numbers that u would expect to cash in a full tilt freeroll (45) we’re talking about a huge boost to ur $10 or small bankroll.

You're not including the times when you don't make it through the .30 satellite. If you succeed half the time, your average cost is .60, not .30. If 1 in 3 success rate, it's .90 avg cost.

yeah i get ur point -ur gonna have to go 1 out of 3 in ur given example to get a return instead of just putting up the $1 entry fee to the daily dollar, which is a very valid point.

it just doesnt seem that hard to get 1 double up plus another 1000 if u play an overall solid game in that saty. especially when about 40-50 ppl out of the normal 200-250 ppl in it will be gone in the 1st 10-20mins.

Although I think cashing in the saty isn’t that hard, ur right, it might not be hard for me to do but for some1 reading this it might be.

So Id recommend u play it a few times to see if u can make a return on that particular tourn. A 1-2$ investment over a nice stretch shouldn’t crush ur baby bankroll. Since the payout is good, its probably the best option ur gonna have if u play at full tilt at such low levels. I mean u got the .10 rebuy tourn- gl with making a return on that,lolol, or the .25 sngs sats.

For ur example if u pay the .30 into the saty and make into the daily dollar, then make it to cashing in the daily dollar ur gonna be up $2+ from that original .30 that u paid to gain entry into the saty to the daily dollar tourn. Because the bottom spot for cashing in the daily dollar like around 2.30. But cashing in the daily dollar tourn is a lot harder than cashing in that saty. Lolol.

but my point was with building a small bankroll ur not gonna want to put a lot into playing tourns just a lil of ur bankroll. but to flat out reject tourns and to stick exclusively to cash games might not be the best way to go for a lot of ppl for building a bankroll.

satellites to tourns are an awesome way to build ur bankroll with a small investment if the payout of the tourn is good. In the case of the saty tourn to the daily $, it is very good.

im done with this 1 ppl.

gl ppl

Hehe.. I've done a couple of those no-no's.. like playing MTT's and not sticking to one game. I know I need to change that habit, which I have been starting to.

Great read, Oz!

Very good advice...I will try to follow it...I seem to have several games that I'm getting good at playing & have been playing just over a year now. I love NLHE best, but also enjoy Razz & 5 card draw...I only do freerolls in those for now though, until I decide what I'm best in! For now, poker is only for recreation while my knee mends...my true vocation is Nursing...but it's tabled till the knee mends. So everyday is poker day & I'm just beginning to win.

As someone who built a small br from nothing and after a necessary cash out is rebuilding it again I want to say thanks for the solid advice. I'll be rereading it periodically.

I may have skipped over similar replies but I can only agree part way with your advice on mtt's. I feel mtt's are fine as long as the person knows how to play an mtt even with the variance. For new persons I'd say avoid them.

I like the satellite idea as one of my biggest increases to my br was a satellite to the Sunday Million I won but I just kept the Buy in. My experience has been that these often have some good fish hoping for the big score.

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

Ship the nickels IMO.

ship em imo.

Originally Posted by BelgoSuisse

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/54/poker-beats-brags-variance/nl10-deep-kk-4bet-644918/

still no idea if they have been shipped or not.

I feel like a serial poster today but I have to say great post by OZ and great discussion. I really felt like I learned something. Exhibit A of why this forum is one of the best free poker resources on the net.

Originally Posted by Mr Whatever

but my point was with building a small bankroll ur not gonna want to put a lot into playing tourns just a lil of ur bankroll. but to flat out reject tourns and to stick exclusively to cash games might not be the best way to go for a lot of ppl for building a bankroll.

satellites to tourns are an awesome way to build ur bankroll with a small investment if the payout of the tourn is good. In the case of the saty tourn to the daily $, it is very good.

Note that I said multi table tournaments. I'll leave most of the rest alone because we're just going around in circles though FWIW Cardplayer52 has it exactly right - if you're not rolled for the tournament then you're not rolled to be satelliting into it on a regular basis either. Grinding the satellites is a different matter entirely... but then we're back to talking about playing single table or small field SnGs rather than actual MTTs.

One other thought. Try to remember that there are other MTTs than the Daily Dollar on Full Tilt. It's interesting that's the tournament a lot of people are talking about, and I think it might be warping judgement a little. The Daily Dollar is a deep stacked tournament that pretty much always has a huge overlay, an incredibly bad standard of play that makes it relatively easy to score a mincash in and jog my memory, isn't it rake free as well? The Daily Dollar is an anomaly though. Regular tournaments with regular structures and normal rake that don't have overlays that big (if at all) aren't anywhere near as attractive a proposition.

Anywho, I'm just sharing my experience. If MTTs work for you be my guest and play in as many as you like. For others who are having trouble getting a small bankroll off the ground though, giving them up in favour of STTs or ring games might be worth a try.

Very good post, and I have done it before also

Most of the members who join CC, or any forum for that matter will have accomplished at least this;

Played a shitload of hands online,
Realized they were not as good as they thought they were,
Decided they might find some help via some discussion group,
So they goggle poker discussion or forum or whatever.

Once they get here the OP should probably be a must read. It details a plan. I too find faults with that plan, but I have millions of hands under my belt. It is a good plan for those without millions of hands under their belts.

The allure of the MTT for beginners is real. They know what the risk is, and for a new player who may have ventured into the ring and found sharks, the MTT seems much safer, with that fixed risk. They will not lose any more than their buy-in, usually very little. And a very savvy noob can pick tourneys up pretty fast. The really huge ROI's are in tourney play. The very very decent ROI's might be in ring.

The fault I find is not stressing the importance, to a noob, of not mixing tourney and ring. At the start, they should not be mixed.

I had to learn Holdem. I'm old and when I learned Poker, Holdem was not even on the radar. It was a kitchen variety usually played right after baseball in dealers choice games.

I too would prefer Stud 8. Would really prefer Horse, and I have sat at a Horse Ring game, but it isn't the same as a tourney. I prefer tourneys.

But for any newer player, nothing in Oz's post is wrong.

So I will add this; You who have not found a game you prefer yet, sit and figure it out. Spend an hour or several thinking about the different games you play. Ask yourself what your villains have been like and whether or not you think you have the wherewithal to overcome the game.

I was fortunate enough to start my bankroll with just $30 and built it to over 300. it took me a few months but its steady and I survived a huge down swing from every bad beat you can think of. It takes a TON of patience and hard work. And you have to play small limits that fit your bankroll.

I agree with playing more than one game. I also like to deposit on a regular basis. You can die of old age playing the microstakes and trying to build a bankroll there.

nlhe MTT = ez game
First game I played online, first table I sat on was 'The Ferguson'. I placed 2nd for $114.00... 'ez game'.

nlhe MTT = ez game
First game I played online, first table I sat on was 'The Ferguson'. I placed 2nd for $114.00... 'ez game'.

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

nlhe MTT = ez game
First game I played online, first table I sat on was 'The Ferguson'. I placed 2nd for $114.00... 'ez game'.

Congrats - you caught the upside of variance.

But I really don't think there's any debate to be had on this point: MTTs are about as high-variance as poker games come. Is anyone actually disputing that?

This isn't some personal jihad against MTTs on my part or anything and I'm certainly not looking to insult the people that play them. I'm just pointing out the fact that they're very high variance, and very high variance is very bad for us if we're trying to turn, say $20 or less into a proper bankroll. For every person that catches the upside like you did there will be dozens that will end up broke and having to start from scratch.

Great thread, and great advice, not just for baby bankrolls, but alot of it can be applied across the board

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

nlhe MTT = ez game
First game I played online, first table I sat on was 'The Ferguson'. I placed 2nd for $114.00... 'ez game'.

Well, I caught the sarcasm......


Good post Oz. And havent you read enough of Poker Orifices posts to detect when he is taking the piss? lol

Great post really! These are golden rules so simple to understand yet so hard to follow

Wow, great post OZ. While I found myself following most of your guidlines anyways, I have repetaedly found myself being drawn to the allure of the big MTT's, and consequently losing the majority of my 'roll. SNG's are my strongest format, and I know I should stick to those, but like all of us, I am fallable and constantly mess shit up.

I don't know how I missed this thread for so long, but it is now bookmarked and I will be constantly checking in for more discussion on the subject. Thank you.

BTW, MrWhatever, I see your point in grinding satty's. Many satty players (esp at the micro level) play horrible and it is reletively easy to get the ticket. I have a stack of Level 3 Steps tickets and an assload of DD tokens. Just don't have the time atm to play any MTT's.

Great post, I enjoyed reading it.

I like the magic bullet part.

+1 to OP, rated 5 stars, Golden Archive for the reasons dj11 said imo.

Very nice post Oz, great advice for anyone with a minimal bankroll.

I really agree with the stick to one game concept as you will improve so much more by getting used to one particular game type at a time.