The Benefits of Aggression (Day 2 Course Discussion)

Debi

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Today's course topic is about The Benefits of Aggression.

If you have not yet read Day 2 and watched the video for Day 2 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it:

The Benefits of Aggression

Now that you understand the 3 types of actions you can take - passive, neutral or aggressive - let's discuss the best times to use aggressive action.

If you have any questions about it- or about any of the hands discussed in Day 2 of the ebook or the Day 2 video - this is the place to ask them!

Both Collin and Katie will be available to assist you as well as other members of the CardsChat community.

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Luvart

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Finished Day #2.

I liked the quiz question on the video "What do you think the opponent doen't want to happen?".

And I hope till the end of the course to understand that KJ raise on the river....lol.

Tomorrow with Day #3.

I will take one #Day per day. I want to study the course thoroughly.
 
onecardsteve

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Aggression is a big key, today's play is so different, I play $1/2 at Foxwoods and $1/3 at Encore Boston. What I see today it is more a post flop play more than pre flop. Pre flop does give you some information of a players bet, but... I see many at times limp in with A's or K's making it a bit more difficult to judge their aggression. Then the funnel of hand ranges post flop can become more difficult to judge. If you as the player take the aggression the board still might dictate the other players.
 
Debi

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Finished Day #2.

I liked the quiz question on the video "What do you think the opponent doen't want to happen?".

And I hope till the end of the course to understand that KJ raise on the river....lol.

Tomorrow with Day #3.

I will take one #Day per day. I want to study the course thoroughly.

I think that is a very good idea. It will give you time to absorb what you learn each day.

Aggression is a big key, today's play is so different, I play $1/2 at Foxwoods and $1/3 at Encore Boston. What I see today it is more a post flop play more than pre flop. Pre flop does give you some information of a players bet, but... I see many at times limp in with A's or K's making it a bit more difficult to judge their aggression. Then the funnel of hand ranges post flop can become more difficult to judge. If you as the player take the aggression the board still might dictate the other players.

It is interesting to note that tendencies and play change over time.
 
MattRyder

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I definitely see your point - "Who would you rather play against: A passive opponent who’s mainly checking and calling or an aggressive opponent who’s betting and raising a lot?"

I find it more relaxing to play against passive players, but I tend to lose more to them than aggressive players. The aggressive players are largely playing their cards up so I usually know where I stand with them.

I find the passive players are often the most difficult to read, quietly sitting there with a QQ over-pair or a flopped set, passively calling my made hand/semi-bluff bets. Till I start feeling more confident about my hand as an actual winner on the turn and/or river. Only to find that I've been successfully trapped/out-drawn. Especially in those situations where their QQ pocket pair becomes a full house and my OESD/Flush draw completes on the river.

There are so many nuances. This is not a simple game, by any stretch. I'm finding your course to be very helpful! The trick is to apply the right bit of knowledge in the right spot at the right time.
 
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Katie Dozier

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Finished Day #2.

I liked the quiz question on the video "What do you think the opponent doen't want to happen?".

And I hope till the end of the course to understand that KJ raise on the river....lol.

Tomorrow with Day #3.

I will take one #Day per day. I want to study the course thoroughly.


That’s a great way to do it! Best of luck and please let us know if you have any questions! :)
 
marvinsytan

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PH
day 2 done

default play - aggressively
 
Collin Moshman

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Marvinsytan and I Live Poker, great work getting through the first two days so quickly and posting in the threads :)
 
Polytarp

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Colin, as I was watching the video and listening to your narration your voice reminded me of Kermit the frog. Please, I mean this in a very good way, your voice has an inflection on certain words where I would imagine Kermit was coaching me:D.

Regarding the video where a player makes a small bet of 40 and you said that the player probably has nothing...I sometimes use this as a trap move when I put out a "mini-feeler bet" and if someone followed your advice and raised, I would put out a re-raise priced to that person's chips because I would have something very strong like trips or KK.

I`m looking to sharpen my skills to play like "gettingpwned" and "Pluribus." Regarding Passivity/Aggression/Neutrality (selective bipolarity) how do the above two "players" respond optimally (how much and what kind of information is being decided upon) in order to associate numbers to P/A/N....note that these first letters when taken backwards spell NAP.. can "sitting-out" also be an optimal play?

As a side-bar, if you remember the old "1983 War Games" movie, the computer "Whopper" (aka Pluribus in this context) told Matthew Broderick that sometimes the best move is not to play. The reason I added this is because during a poker game in Niagara Falls some years ago, a player slow-rolled a win and was found in a dumpster the next day. Some games are (unintentionally and not) very high stakes so good etiquette is always appreciated!;)
 
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I have a lot of difficulties in being aggressive in poker, because as games in micro tournaments the players do not place correct bets and play strong hands or fights or that make it difficult to read when the hands are played by my hand. So, really leave my tournament in question. I think with bigger buyins or regular players they place bigger bets accordingly. Even though it is more difficult to read regularly the development of our game it is not "in the hand of chance".
 
NWPatriot

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Mattryder, I agree with your post 100%.

As for the video, I like the idea of the three levels of aggression (aggressive, passive and neutral). I had not previously used the term neutral, but it makes perfect sense. I do find it interesting that in the final hand example, all three levels of aggression were used. This should be an a-ha moment for all who think that aggressive play must mean that we have our foot on the gas all the time, every time.

I do have a question however. In two of the videos, when it came to the turn, the hero did not raise using the familiar rationale that "only a better hand would call". When the river was a brick in one of that hands, why was this rationale thrown out on the river? It seems like we should not be waffling back and forth from street to street with our rationale. Otherwise we can fall into the trap of justifying any action we take.
 
MrFladder

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I play the most of the time more passive but for me it's more of a mindset what i must change to play more aggressive.

Do you have also tips how to change the mindset, because when i try to start to play more aggressive after some time my play changes back to passive.
 
Collin Moshman

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Poly, I'll take the Kermit thing as a compliment :D

NW, the "only a better hand will call" idea is discussed a lot more on the future day. But it is absolutely most applicable at the river, and least applicable on the early streets. A lot more discussion on this to come!
 
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natelearnspoker

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Thanks for the video - really appreciate the insight on what’s passive, neutral, and aggressive. As a fairly aggressive player myself, I have no fear taking initiative betting first and c-betting. However, I’m working on incorporating big raises in the right spot. Usually I raise with the nuts, but I want to get better at check raising and raising as a bluff!
 
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An interesting line of a hand on the river. Impressed 10,9s with a third pair with an average kicker! Very much. It is difficult to call all-in with the first pair, and with the second it is even more difficult.
KJ is played along a similar line, but more carefully. I think that if the opponent had a Q hand with a small kicker, then he drove himself into a trap.
What do you think someone would fold such a hand as AQ or KQ?
Great examples that demonstrate the strength of a position and the advantage of aggression.
 
Katie Dozier

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I always thought I was aggressive, boy was I wrong after seeing this video. Thanks for the lesson. Can't wait to use this in my game.

Thanks and I can totally relate to what you’re saying! Back when I transitioned from playing super turbos to mttsngs, I wasn’t nearly aggressive enough post-flop at first!
 
Katie Dozier

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Thanks for the video - really appreciate the insight on what’s passive, neutral, and aggressive. As a fairly aggressive player myself, I have no fear taking initiative betting first and c-betting. However, I’m working on incorporating big raises in the right spot. Usually I raise with the nuts, but I want to get better at check raising and raising as a bluff!


That’s great! And it’s much better that you’re already taking the initiative and c-betting! :)
 
Katie Dozier

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An interesting line of a hand on the river. Impressed 10,9s with a third pair with an average kicker! Very much. It is difficult to call all-in with the first pair, and with the second it is even more difficult.
KJ is played along a similar line, but more carefully. I think that if the opponent had a Q hand with a small kicker, then he drove himself into a trap.
What do you think someone would fold such a hand as AQ or KQ?
Great examples that demonstrate the strength of a position and the advantage of aggression.


Great points and yes it can be difficult sometimes to call all ins as wide as we should; it’s an easy thing I think for players to incorrectly talk themselves out of— even with relatively strong holdings!
 
JoeKampman

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"If you're unsure take the Aggressive route" I think I should practice this more than I do, but in moderation. If I were to act aggressively without thought to what is happening around me it could be a disaster, it actually has been before, but I still like the idea of it. I just don't want to be a maniac. :)
 
Risto234

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"If you're unsure take the Aggressive route" I think I should practice this more than I do, but in moderation. If I were to act aggressively without thought to what is happening around me it could be a disaster, it actually has been before, but I still like the idea of it. I just don't want to be a maniac. :)


If you want to practice that even more then cardchat events are perfect for it.
Also there's nothing wrong acting like a maniac (in poker table) ...
 
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