Bank Roll Management

[BelgoSuisse]

... such positive & helpful encouragement!!

Sometimes it's better to be brutally honest.

Most people are losers at this game. And that includes very intelligent people who don't dedicate enough time and energy to the game and very dedicated people who just don't have the type of intelligence that fits the game.

Being positive and encouraging is not really helpful if it encourages people to think that their losses are just a bad run or a problem of BRM, so that they end up depositing over and over, sometimes beyond their means.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Sometimes it's better to be brutally honest.

Most people are losers at this game. And that includes very intelligent people who don't dedicate enough time and energy to the game and very dedicated people who just don't have the type of intelligence that fits the game.

Being positive and encouraging is not really helpful if it encourages people to think that their losses are just a bad run or a problem of BRM, so that they end up depositing over and over, sometimes beyond their means.

Very VERY great wisdom.

So, what is the "tiny minority" who win at poker long term, do you think, Belgo? In terms of percentage... over whatever time period you think appropriate.

 

[cardplayer52]

I needed to overcome was being on tilt after bad beats.

"I don’t often speak in absolutes….since poker is so situational, but this is so important and true that I can say it with 100% certainty…..if you don’t control your emotions you will never be a winning player!" ---DavSimon

 

[GCpigeon]

New beginning

I didnt get to play as much as I wanted to over the weekend. I Managed to try a sit-n-go, and sat in a ring game. I gained a little bit of with my bank. I won the sit-n-go, won about .30 cents at the ring game (.01-.02 NL ). So, as of now I'm almost back to the original $50 that I started with.
Quite an acomplishment considering that My BR was down to $9 at one point. I now have $47.78 to work with. I guess I feel like I'm starting all over again and hopefully I can keep the upward momentum going.

 

[doops]

Dang, you are harsh! Truthful but harsh.

Sometimes it's better to be brutally honest.

Most people are losers at this game. And that includes very intelligent people who don't dedicate enough time and energy to the game and very dedicated people who just don't have the type of intelligence that fits the game.

Being positive and encouraging is not really helpful if it encourages people to think that their losses are just a bad run or a problem of BRM, so that they end up depositing over and over, sometimes beyond their means.

True. Harshly true.

bankroll management only helps winning players ride out downswings. It doesn't do much for losing players.

Not everyone has the chops to play poker successfully in the long run. Anyone can go on a lucky streak. Anyone can read and blog and experiment with ways to get better, and that will increase the likelihood of becoming an adequate player. Few even manage to break even.

OPR is not the best authority, but so far as tournament play goes, it looks as though only the top 15% of players are in the black. Not all of them, even. So 85% of all the players lose money playing tournaments. OPR does not include cash games or live play, so there is no way of knowing whether some of these people are playing tourneys for fun and killing the cash games.

Take me, for instance.
Right now, I'm in the top 2% on FT for 2009 only because of a nice win back in January. I'm not doing so well otherwise. BRM helps limit my losses. I play much better than I used to, but I am not truly competitive with higher limit (excellent) players. I can only do consistently well at low limits. I think it has to do with me, and my valuation of money, and my innate financial conservativism. It must be someti=hing like that holding me back, because, god knows, I study hard, and think a lot, and I am pretty smart. So, unless I change the sort of person I am, I think am unlikely to move up much further. While Ferguson zipped from $1000 to $10000 in a month or so, I can't seem to move up. I go up a bit, down a bit, stuck right about there. Whenever I try to move up, I start losing and have to move down again. I build up again, move up, lose, move down. Months of this. So I need to consider that, unlike Ferguson, I may not have what it takes to be successful beyond this level. I don't suck. I have a level where I can succeed. But, as hard as I try, I seem to be stuck.

Learning the basic poker skills can help you beat the lower levels of online play. But you do have to improve dramatically to play at higher levels, and not everyone has what it takes to do that.

There is a concept in business called the Peter Principle. It has to do with people getting promoted to the level of their incompetence. The good thing about poker is that one can move back down to a level where one is competent. Or simply lose at the higher level.

Best of luck in your personal BR challenge. I hope your Peter Principle level is higher than mine seems to be.

 

[Daleyboy1234]

Sometimes it's better to be brutally honest.

Most people are losers at this game. And that includes very intelligent people who don't dedicate enough time and energy to the game and very dedicated people who just don't have the type of intelligence that fits the game.

Being positive and encouraging is not really helpful if it encourages people to think that their losses are just a bad run or a problem of BRM, so that they end up depositing over and over, sometimes beyond their means.

I totally agree with you. there was a lad i met who had about $140 in his account and he kept saying to me i'm on a massive downswing. he was playing 3.40 SnG's but is now grinding out $1.20 Sng's with a $14 BR

I myself believe this is not one MASSIVE downswing but the results of some one either not studying and putting the time in or not intelectually at a profitable level. The first i reckon.

It got to the poitn where he asked me to send him my bankroll because he'd told his mates he was making a living playing poker but had no bankroll to back it up.

I politely Declined.

 

[toogood2k]

on FTP academy is many good and new things, atm im there trying to watch all sessions and lessons, already have doned like about 1/2 of all. Also about bankroll mangaement i learn from pokerstrategy poker quiz, like about 3hours needed to do it, but i think that was good for me and my future, atm i realy dont know where to learn about pot odds... mybe some1 can giveme some link or forum threat where are writed about poker odds and how to make them better?

 

[Daleyboy1234]

True. Harshly true.

Bankroll management only helps winning players ride out downswings. It doesn't do much for losing players.

Not everyone has the chops to play poker successfully in the long run. Anyone can go on a lucky streak. Anyone can read and blog and experiment with ways to get better, and that will increase the likelihood of becoming an adequate player. Few even manage to break even.

OPR is not the best authority, but so far as tournament play goes, it looks as though only the top 15% of players are in the black. Not all of them, even. So 85% of all the players lose money playing tournaments. OPR does not include cash games or live play, so there is no way of knowing whether some of these people are playing tourneys for fun and killing the cash games.

Take me, for instance.
Right now, I'm in the top 2% on FT for 2009 only because of a nice win back in January. I'm not doing so well otherwise. BRM helps limit my losses. I play much better than I used to, but I am not truly competitive with higher limit (excellent) players. I can only do consistently well at low limits. I think it has to do with me, and my valuation of money, and my innate financial conservativism. It must be someti=hing like that holding me back, because, god knows, I study hard, and think a lot, and I am pretty smart. So, unless I change the sort of person I am, I think am unlikely to move up much further. While Ferguson zipped from $1000 to $10000 in a month or so, I can't seem to move up. I go up a bit, down a bit, stuck right about there. Whenever I try to move up, I start losing and have to move down again. I build up again, move up, lose, move down. Months of this. So I need to consider that, unlike Ferguson, I may not have what it takes to be successful beyond this level. I don't suck. I have a level where I can succeed. But, as hard as I try, I seem to be stuck.

Learning the basic poker skills can help you beat the lower levels of online play. But you do have to improve dramatically to play at higher levels, and not everyone has what it takes to do that.

There is a concept in business called the Peter Principle. It has to do with people getting promoted to the level of their incompetence. The good thing about poker is that one can move back down to a level where one is competent. Or simply lose at the higher level.

Best of luck in your personal BR challenge. I hope your Peter Principle level is higher than mine seems to be.

I like OPR but it does only give MTT info which is a daw back. Table player ratings is good for cash but as i'm only at 10NL and 25NL it doesnt cover stars on these levels. sharkscope is the best i would say to see how your doing at SNG's

Keep up the work GCpigeon and rememeber studying is a neccesity. Get a copy of the Harrington on Holdem books they worked wonders for me and read the hand analysis and strategy sections in here.

P.S if a mod wants to murge my threads i would be grateful as i didnt knowhow to multi quote an edit.

Cheers

 

[GCpigeon]

All Work no play

I didnt work at the tabes as much as wanted to this past week because of having to work over time at my job. I'm glad this week is finally over, and I get to star tthe weekend with $51.21 for my bankroll.
Wow what a month.. definitly up and down.
I ve studied hard , played hard, and studied some more....
It's hard work just to keep a bankroll in tact. Especially when you make a serious mistake that sets you back a bunch $$$$$.
I wasnt comfotable playing at small stakes, and that was because I didnt respect the other payers at this level (.02 NL)
Truthfully.. I was the idiot at the table sometimes. Making mistakes like ...
checking when I should have been betting, giving an opponent the free card that they wanted. And not laying the big hands down when I needed to.. example holding on to KK after the flop when an ace hits the board even when I know my opponent prolly has an ace... purty dumb thing for me to do. Or how about making another raise with JJ or mid pair when the pot has already been raised 2x befor it gets to me... I should be folding...Well Here we go again off to a new start , and a new month coming up. I had some bad beats almost every day... but I made some terrible decisions at the tables too.
I believe Bad beats can be over come by consistantly playing your hands correctly in any given situation. Its time to build that bankroll....thanks for all the advice and comments as it has all beeen very helpful and good luck to all of you

 

[Poker Orifice]

"I believe Bad beats can be over come by consistantly playing your hands correctly in any given situation"

Actually the BadBeats will come when you have played the hand correctly. This is why they're badbeats, lol. You can price guys off draws, get it allin as a 95% fav. on the turn, 87% on the flop, or 83% preflop w AA.. and lose, lose, lose... these are the badbeats, lol.

Good players will suffer from badbeats more often than bad players... because good players are the ones who were getting their chips in good.

Definitely a good thing to do (mandatory imo) to be reviewing your play, thinking about how you could've done things differently (obviously after the fact... i mean.. you can keep it in mind while in the game but don't thrash yourself over it.. take each hand as it comes.. stay in the moment (which also means looking ahead obviously,lol). Reviewing one's play with an auto-hand-replayer is very useful imo.... gives one the oppurtunity to observe one's own play with a more objective viewpoint.

 

[joemac696969]

I have been away for nine months and I am trying to build a bank roll through the free rolls, I placed in one and got my roll up to 6 bucks then played the 1.25 sngs and ended up donkin it away. Got to get back the patience and practice to build my roll again. GL

 

[mavss14]

Well great idea to always try new ways to manage your bankroll, gl on your goal

 

[micalupagoo]

Bankroll management only applies to winning players. That's a tiny minority of the player pool.

Most people should rather budget how much they want to spend per month on their hobby

love that post Belgo- too very true

 

[GCpigeon]

"Actually the BadBeats will come when you have played the hand correctly."

Exactly right...for instance... I used 5000 academy credits for a $26 token to play in A tournament yesterday. I went bust very early
And I had a big stack after around 60 hands or so.. I played 3 hands and built my stack to 7500 chips (3000 to start with).
I had AA i was put all in by a player who had QQ. He spikes a Q on the turn which set me back to a little more than 2500 chips. A few hands later I held AQ when I flop two more Q's. Again I'm put all in by an overly aggressive player on a flush draw and I get rivered with the Diamond flush.
The player called a re-raise befor the flop with 8d 6d. Go figure.?
Ok now we get to my bankroll lol I decided to try my luck at $3.50
buy in 90 player sng deepstack and knockout. played 4 of them didnt do well, never cashed. Lost a few more $ in ring games ( .10 nl $4.00 buy in)
Bank was at $38 saturday night. So yesterday ( Sunday ) I continued playing ring games and built the bankroll back up to $51. 25.
Played a .$2.25 single sit and go this morning and came in 2nd.
As of now the BR sits at $56.49. The Mistake in all this, I think is I should have stayed with the ring games and only tried one MTT SNG.
So its back to ring games for the rest of the week. thanks for the posts .. keep them coming, And Good luck to all

 

[Drusilla]

i mostly put 50$ when i deposit. what kind of bankroll management should i use ?

 

[GCpigeon]

i mostly put 50$ when i deposit. what kind of bankroll management should i use ?

If you play on fulltilt you should go to the fulltilt poker academy and watch the lesson on bank roll management by Chris Furguson.
He rcomends that you play in ring games where your buy in is 5% or less of your bankroll, and 2% or less for sng's and MTT's.
This works very well and will help you survive if you happen to be on a losing streak from time to time. there are other lessons in the academy that help you become a winning player if you study and apply the lessons to your game GL and let me know how you are doing

 

[GCpigeon]

Still playing in ring games. ( $4.00 buy .10 cent NL)
My bank roll is finallly growing $73.08 YEAH!! I survived a month so far playing micro limits.

 

[GCpigeon]

Still hanging in there

First and Formost, let me apologize for not posting an update for this past week as I have been very buisy lately. I have been playing some and usually with outside influence (tired from work, personal problems etc.)
effecting my play in an adverse way. I was losing $ at a very fast pace
until my bank was at $19 (can you believe it?). This forced me to take a break from poker for a few days and regroup and get myself back together again. I must say that the break helped in a big way.This morning I entred a $2.25 buy in tounament and won! Can you believe that! Out of a field of
222 I was 1st. Now my bank roll is @ $130.24. A big boost for my confidence. Its back to business now and build this bank roll. good luck to every one and I'll be sure to keep posting . Monday I will let you all know how the weekend goes. Good luck to everyone .

 

[cardplayer52]

OK so you risked 12% of your bankroll one one game and it was a MTT at that? Taking shots at higher buyin is OK if you consider it a poker budget not a poker bankroll. Now you won a few $ you really should try to protect it by using good BR management. And post your losses too. You will grow as a player if you do so.

 

[absoluthamm]

Agreed CP52, if you were going to play a game that was going to take up that much of your roll, you should have been playing a SNG(although lower would be neccessary, given that the site you are playing on has buyins of less than that, which FullTilt DOES.) Congrats on cashing for that much, but it was terrible bankroll management, as you should only be putting about 2% of your roll towards a MTT for it to be good management. Therefore, you are just above that limit right now! So now you can comfortably play those 2.25 MTTs, but if you drop again(which is very possible if you stick to this BRM), then you need to drop in stakes.

 

[Mcevo2k9]

same i deposited 50 dollars

 

[Poker Orifice]

Congrats on your win!!!! That is awesome!!!!

Now you've got a bit of cushioning behind you so that you'll comfortably be able to play a bunch more.

LOL @ telling OP to not play a $2 MTT. What.... should they stick to the 10cent rebuy instead?

I see nothing wrong with taking the occassional shot at an MTT above what would be suggested as good Bankroll management (ie. right now I'm not rolled well enough on Fulltilt to play the MiniFtops MainEvent, BUT,.. am strongly considering playing it anyways,.... I've had $500-$800 cashes from a $5 investment in the past, why not throw $50 down on a tournament that will be filled with dead money, with deepstacks and an oppurtunity to get in there with some of Fulltilt's best if I happen to be fortunate to go deep in it?? Pretty sure I'd regret not playing it rather than playing it and losing. Am keeping it up in the air atm,... if I happen to cash well on Saturday in some MTTs then the MainEv. will be a for sure for me).

Hope your next MTT cash isn't far away. GL in the next one!!

 

[DetroitJimmy]

I was referring to SNG's... not cash tables.
I believe you have a fair bit of experience in SNG's in the past.
It is my experience that I do far, far better when there are at least a few decent players on the table... SNG I"m talking.
Personally I don't think I could build a roll in $1 SNG's... even if the tourney fee was only 10cents. As an experiment.... do you think you could run well in the $1's? and when was the last time you've tried?

I hear this comment over & over again (above).. but in 'reality', if you're in a SNG where 7 players are calling any & ever preflop raise, even if you've tightened up to playing only 1 hand in 30.... YAH.. they suck... they suck real bad. I can't argue with my own results and my own experience... playing the super micros.. ESPECIALLY on the weekends.. is f'n horrendous. Cash tables on the weekends... pure heaven.

I have built up from practicly nothing playing $1.25 and $2.25 turbos several times at FT. I have over 25% ROI steadily in over 1000 games.

The competition is horrible and as long as you play the end game well you should come out on top.

 

[DetroitJimmy]

BTW, If you have a very limited BR I suggest the $.25 + .05 satellites to the daily dollar. These are VERY easy to beat! The top two get a buy in to the daily dollar and third gets $.25. I can multi table 9 of these with no HUD and over 300 games I have over 45% ROI.

If you can't beat these than you just aren't a SNG type of person is my opinion.

 

[Arjonius]

Your bankroll is all the money you're willing to use for poker, not just what you have on a specific site. That includes money still in your wallet or bank. If you consider the money on each site as a separate bankroll, you can end up with some ludicrous situations. For example, if I have $1000 on site A and use a 20x buyin guideline for ring games, then assuming I buy in for the full amount, I can play NL50. But on site B, if I have $50 there and use the same 20x ratio, I can only play NL2. That's ridiculous since I'm the same person no matter which site I play on. In this example, I have one roll, not two. It's $1050, and I am adequately funded to play NL50 on either site.