*** August Micro Thread ***

[slycbnew]

You're pretty nitty overall, right?

Fwiw, I play fr and run 21/16 from the sb. I lose at a little less than 1/2 the rate of just always folding the sb. I ATS 41% from the sb and 3bet 7%.

I'm a super nit at 16/13 for 6max.

29% ATS from sb, 3.5% 3bet.

Hmm, just backtracked the filter to include last month and i'm losing almost exactly half of my sb (-12BB/100). Maybe I'm just running bad there in my last 30k hands - I see several flopped sets/2pr/combo draws that are all in on the flop that ultimately lost the hand (and a couple of really bad bluffs fwiw )...

 

[kleitches]

It's big enough to show me what I need to know. You just need to read the charts and see where it's best to do what.

Sorry Rogue, but you're wrong here buddy. It's not enough. Ask anybody here and you won't get a different answer. (Except maybe kidkvno1)

 

[kleitches]

It's big enough to show me what I need to know. You just need to read the charts and see where it's best to do what.

Going further, after an adequate sample size, you need to look at the differences in your win-rate between completing in the small blind and raising in the small blind. It'll be pretty obvious. Of course if we fold the sb every single time we're going to lose, but we aren't going to fold the sb 100% We're (hopefully) stealing often, as well as actually getting legitimate hands. Taking that into account, our win-rate in the small blind would be much higher than what it would be if we either folded the sb 100% OR called too much/raising occasionally. Sure, you're losing at a rate less than -40bb/100 over 8k hands, but does that prove that calling a lot is profitable? Not at all. Can your win-rate be better if you were to start folding trash instead of limping out of position? Absolutely.

I understand your point that at 5nl people don't tend to punish limpers. I've played there before and I agree with you, but even still, raising/folding more than calling is a much better way to play in the small blind. If it doesn't hurt you now, it will when you move up. Better to good into good habits while it isn't expensive.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Going further, after an adequate sample size, you need to look at the differences in your win-rate between completing in the small blind and raising in the small blind. It'll be pretty obvious. Of course if we fold the sb every single time we're going to lose, but we aren't going to fold the sb 100% We're (hopefully) stealing often, as well as actually getting legitimate hands. Taking that into account, our win-rate in the small blind would be much higher than what it would be if we either folded the sb 100% OR called too much/raising occasionally. Sure, you're losing at a rate less than -40bb/100 over 8k hands, but does that prove that calling a lot is profitable? Not at all. Can your win-rate be better if you were to start folding trash instead of limping out of position? Absolutely.

I understand your point that at 5nl people don't tend to punish limpers. I've played there before and I agree with you, but even still, raising/folding more than calling is a much better way to play in the small blind. If it doesn't hurt you now, it will when you move up. Better to good into good habits while it isn't expensive.

^^^^

This

Try playing correctly and see what your Blinds win-rate is then.

I mean in a previous post you were talking about playing poker full time for a iving; the loose SB completing will have to stop.

Its embarrassing when you put forward an idea only to be told its wrong; it happens to me all of the time. The difference with me thought is that I am willing to alter my thinking on the advice of others. In this way I improve. Its not personal. If there ia a right way and a wrong way and I'm doing something wrong, I only find out when I talk about what I do. Then I have a choice.. keep doing the wrong thing or try and do the right thing.

I have noticed a recurring theme in your posts. You put forward an idea.. it is pointed out that it is wrong. You then spend the next 3 days trying to justify it. Why not simply swallow your pride and figure out what you need to do to improve rather than trying to paint yourself into a corner.

 

[slycbnew]

Hmm, backtracked through this thread, and we've hijacked likminutz's hijack of the thread...

Anything useful to you in this nutz (yeechh, i'm trying to contract your screen name, and anything i come up w sounds really gross)? Any questions prompted?

 

[slycbnew]

^^^ +1

Happens to me all the time too, for good reason - I'm still learning, and I make boneheaded plays/have bad ideas all the time .

Even famous pros devote a significant amount of time to study... Durrr and Fossilman developed a lot of their strategy in discussions like this.

Enjoying poker, of course, doesn't mean you HAVE to study or consider alternative viewpoints - but if you're serious about moving up in levels, it's a huge opportunity to consider discussions like this as an opportunity to learn.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Its embarrassing when you put forward an idea only to be told its wrong; it happens to me all of the time. The difference with me thought is that I am willing to alter my thinking on the advice of others. In this way I improve.

This is difficult to do when you already completely understand everything. So diffuicult.

 

[RogueRivered]

Seems to me the real problem around here is that when you prove your point with evidence, people still stick their heads in the sand and spout the same old tired cliches they always do, without any evidence of their own.

I'm suggesting you open your minds and take a long hard look at things that may not seem intuitive -- that's the only way you're going to really improve. Or you could just go with the flow, do what everyone else is doing, without really understanding why.

And Stu, you are a huge jerk -- please stop posting replies to every post I make. I already know what you're going to say, and it's rarely nice.

 

[Jurn8]

Seems to me the real problem around here is that when you prove your point with evidence, people still stick their heads in the sand and spout the same old tired cliches they always do, without any evidence of their own.

I'm suggesting you open your minds and take a long hard look at things that may not seem intuitive -- that's the only way you're going to really improve. Or you could just go with the flow, do what everyone else is doing, without really understanding why.

And Stu, you are a huge jerk -- please stop posting replies to every post I make. I already know what you're going to say, and it's rarely nice.

LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the point is the evidence isnt sufficient enough but w.e. you obvs are a 5nl balla!

 

[kleitches]

Seems to me the real problem around here is that when you prove your point with evidence, people still stick their heads in the sand and spout the same old tired cliches they always do, without any evidence of their own.

I'm suggesting you open your minds and take a long hard look at things that may not seem intuitive -- that's the only way you're going to really improve. Or you could just go with the flow, do what everyone else is doing, without really understanding why.

And Stu, you are a huge jerk -- please stop posting replies to every post I make. I already know what you're going to say, and it's rarely nice.

First, you're completely delusional if you think people here "stick their heads in the sand and spout cliches". These are winning players giving you advice based off substantial experience. Where do you get that these people are not providing you with any evidence of their own? Have you seen the graphs of winning regulars around here? How about you try talking to some of them about playing the small blind 30% and see what they think of that? But wait! That would do no good because you're too stubborn to consider another viewpoint that may differ from yours. This is ironic because you're accusing people that are trying to help you of doing this. The only difference is they're proven winners over a significant sample, meanwhile you are not.

You can attack Stu all you want, but he (as well as others in this forum) are only trying to help you. Rarely does anyone around here try to set out to trivialize learning players or make them feel like shit. It doesn't even make sense for us to do that in this particular thread because most of us are at similar levels. So calling him a jerk is just a big LOL.

When I read Belgo's reply to your post in another thread, I initially felt sorry for you. I agreed with your sentiments that a player shouldn't be discouraged, as long as they were trying to learn the game and make efforts to improve. Now, it is clear to me that you are not willing to learn. You're adamant that your play is the best way and that everyone else is wrong. For this reason, I'm done with you and trying to help you. I'm sure you will be seeing that lots of people will be giving up on you as well. There is absolutely no point in trying to assist someone who doesn't appreciate good feedback, and going further even tries to prove that the wrong way to play is the right way (and believe me, Rogue, your way is certainly wrong).

Have fun crushing 5nl.

 

[Jurn8]

First, you're completely delusional if you think people "stick their heads in the sand and spout cliches". These are winning players giving you advice based off substantial experience. Where do you get that these people are not providing you any evidence of their own? Have you seen the graphs of winning regulars around here? How about you try talking to some of them about playing the small blind 30% and see what they think of that? But wait! That would do no good because you're too stubborn to consider another viewpoint that may differ from yours. This is ironic because you're accusing people that are trying to help you of doing this. The only difference is they're proven winners over a significant sample, meanwhile you are not.

You can attack Stu all you want, but he (as well as others in this forum) are only trying to help you. Rarely does anyone around here try to set out to trivialize learning players or make them feel like shit. It doesn't even make sense for us to do that in this particular thread because most of us are at similar levels. So calling him a jerk is just a big LOL.

When I read Belgo's reply to your post in another thread, I initially felt sorry for you. I agreed with your sentiments that a player shouldn't be discouraged, as long as they were trying to learn the game and make efforts to improve. Now, it is clear that you are not willing to learn. You're adamant that your play is the best way and that everyone else is wrong. For this reason, I'm done with you and trying to help you. I'm sure you will be seeing lots of people will be giving up on you as well. There is absolutely no point in trying to assist someone who doesn't appreciate good feedback, and going further even tries to prove that the wrong way to play is the right way (and believe me, Rogue, your way is certainly wrong).

Have fun crushing 5nl.

+1

 

[switch0723]

Seems to me the real problem around here is that when you prove your point with evidence, people still stick their heads in the sand and spout the same old tired cliches they always do, without any evidence of their own.

I'm suggesting you open your minds and take a long hard look at things that may not seem intuitive -- that's the only way you're going to really improve. Or you could just go with the flow, do what everyone else is doing, without really understanding why.

And Stu, you are a huge jerk -- please stop posting replies to every post I make. I already know what you're going to say, and it's rarely nice.

wow thats your response to people who are trying to make you a better player?? You post in a thread based on micro guys improving and helping each other so they can all learn and move up, you post an interesting topic for discussion, then when people don't take your side because its wrong, you freak out?? Open your mind a bit. What you posted isn't 'evidence' its just your stats, If i open shove a2 every time i have it, and after 7k hands of doing it, i have a profit, would that mean its a good way to play?

 

[switch0723]

fwiw i play 24/19 from the sb, stealing 60% and lose at 6.6bb/100 overall, but run at 33bb/100 when i steal

 

[slycbnew]

wv, i'm jealous of your sb stats, your VPIP/PR are my CO stats!

Could you give your general thoughts on -

1. Conditions in which you call in sb (types of hands, multiway or hu expectation, and relation to villain types),

2. And what your thought process is postflop if you whiff the flop (and relation to villain types, and if you think they also likely whiffed the flop)? I'm guessing you have this plan in mind when you call preflop?

Bluntly, I dislike playing oop so much that I avoid calling unless I have a hand that can hit a flop really hard and/or think villain will fold to postflop aggression, and/or think villain will call all in if I hit the flop really hard. This means, as an example, that I almost never call w an A worse than AT.

I'm finding that many regs at 100nl will not pay off a set (those w stats similar to mine, 16/13 ish), so I'm now folding small pp's if I expect to be HU against one of these guys (but if they fold to 3bets, I occasionally go that route w even 22). I also fold these against ss's, since even if they do pay me off, it's not a sufficient ROI.

Trying to get back to likminutz's original post...

 

[slycbnew]

fwiw i play 24/19 from the sb, stealing 60% and lose at 6.6bb/100 overall, but run at 33bb/100 when i steal

switch, maybe you could give some thoughts on what I asked wv as well?

I'm trying (slowly) to become less of a nit

 

[switch0723]

well im a hudge nit, so im not best for that, i just steal a ton, but play like 2/1 from every other position. But ye i complete the sb with suited connectors, pairs or hands like k,j. I hate playing oop, so i only raise aq+tt+ from the sb behind limpers. I bluff bet basically any scary high board like kq3, at4 etc just because the limpers ranges are weighted towards small pairs and connecter cards.

I also have a really weird style where, if someone is stealing and i have 88-jj/aj/aq i flat and play postflop, im sure im only a very very slight winner doing this, its just i prefer playing postflop against a stealing range rather than 3betting with hands like jj, since i have a small 3bet (like 2.3 or something) so by 3betting jj i like turn my hand into a bluff. When faced with a raise that isn't from a steal pos, i generally fold everything except tt-qq and 3bet AA,KK and AK + some bluffs

I also fold small pairs if regs are aggressive and good enough to fold overpairs and will pressure me into folding ui, but will setmine if the villain has low cbet or has high cbet but low turn bet. If the raiser is like mp2 or co or something and im on the button, ill generally call with 66+ for value and position against the wider range


This should all be taken with a grain of salt on the basis my NSD plummit, im all about the showdown

(this is all against good regs)

/rambling about my style of play

//back on what flops i bet, if i limp kj and bink tp, i usually c/c more than bet, I'll bet 2p+ or if i have an overpair, if im in the bb with a hand like t5 and flop comes 5h, ill just c/f rather than bet coz im ba/wb limpers ranges generally plus im oop

 

[Dwilius]

I'd be very interested to read responses to slybnews post too, not much to add on the subject as I'm a completely lost loose passive at the sb, while nitty at every other position...looks like main reason for the gap in vpip/pfr that I have.

edit: i type slowly.

D'wilz I love that avatar man.

:icon_fara

 

[kleitches]

D'wilz I love that avatar man.

 

[switch0723]

I dont think my answer is very good btw, but the questions are really hard to answer, becaue the whole situation depends on pos of limpers, stats of limpers, stacks of limpers, the thousands of board textures and combos of my hands

 

[kleitches]

Stop stressing dude, your answers were fine. No need to re-edit your post 1958352 times

 

[widowmaker89]

answered in different thread btw. I am at -.58 BB/100 from sb

 

[WVHillbilly]

RogueRivered, I think a lot of people are thinking your sample is from 8K total hands, but it's actually from 8K hands in the sb, right? So what about 45K total hands? Still a smallish sample but I'd say your results aren't just variance. Having said that doing things like open limping the sb is sure to lose $$ beyond 5nl. You should really focus more on learning at micro stakes rather than increasing your win rate. I hope that makes sense because it's very important.

As for me I'll flat LP raises from the sb with a lot of Broadway hands and some mid pocket pairs. Generally I'll flat a lot of hands that figure to be better than the original raisers opening range but that play poorly against his 3bet calling range. I use the ch/r a fair amount from the SB (15%) and I'm not opposed to donking some flops as a kind of delays 3bet. I'll 3bet my value range, small pairs, some smaller connectors or occasionally Axs/Kxs type hands. At FR there are a lot of players who try to steal but absolutely give up when played back at, so I play back at those players quite a bit from the blinds (maybe too much).

I really don't think you're missing a ton of value by playing really nitty from the blinds (although I think you should probably open up more in position sly). Playing OOP sucks in general and your advantage even against really bad players is negligible if they have position.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Well the way I would look at it is this..

By completing the SB with a weak range in MW pots, you are forcing yourself to play very fit or fold post flop.

Lets assume a final preflpp pot with 4 players (A middle position limper, the button, YOU THE SB and the BB completes).

The pot is 4bb

You are now OOP and low and behold you miss the flop because most of the time you will (just like any flop really!)

Now you look to steal.

Well a c-bet of 1/2 pot is 2bb (woow thats a hell of a raise!! 2bb isnt really the kind of powerhouse raise thats going to blow these fish of their hands. Fish limp preflop and low and behold they peel postflop too).

so lets asume these guys fold a lot.. they each fold 65% of the time (which for a guy who peels.. thats a relitively high fold %

The combined fold to c-bet of 3 loose fish limpers should be around.

0.65^3=0.274625

so the combined FTs post flop of all 3 players is 27%

Now we are putting 2bb into a 4bb pot as a steal so it has to be successfull 2/(2+4)=0.333333 % of the time.

It isnt!

it succeeds only 27% of the time.

So by competing the SB with a weak range you are leaving yourself OOP with a hand thats unlikely to be strong postflop AND you have little chance of stealing.

So you arent adding to your winrate by doing this, instead you are losing more. The few times you make a decent hand are whats pushing your WR up again.

However this can be better achived by tightening your range such that you are more likely to make the best hand post flop. Betting rather than calling to reduce the number of people in the hand and targeting opponents who are likely to fold to a c-bet.

 

[Caseace48]

Yes this. Your graphs are pretty sick man

I would love to do a video, not sure if my computer will allow me to do 24 tables and a video, but I would give it a go. I could definitely use a walkthrough on what programs to use and how though

Heres my stats over a fairly large sample of 24 tabling if your interested, my win-rate is definitely leveling off and stablizing due to normal variance at about 5BB/100 where I predict it will fluctuate between 5-6 over the course of my time at 50NL(On a side note my BR is almost ready to move to 100NL so im excited ):

VPIP%: 12.7 PFR%: 9.9 3Bet%: 3.5 WTSD%: 22.2 W$SD%: 57.6 Agg: 3.7
Agg%: 33.2 Vs. 3Bet Fold%: 64.2 Steal%: 31.8 Flop Cbet%: 82.8

Bit of a nit I know, but still fairly active with steals etc.

 

[slycbnew]

I dont think my answer is very good btw, but the questions are really hard to answer, becaue the whole situation depends on pos of limpers, stats of limpers, stacks of limpers, the thousands of board textures and combos of my hands

good answers - i rambled - the quality of your rambling is excellent!