A small question about pot odds

[JR1987]

Im only about a month into my study and playing of poker (just at NL2), Ive learnt alot and my game has started to improve which is encouraging.

Im practicing pot odds and how to put them into my game.

The only thing that confuses me a bit is when we are talking about getting value and better odds for our potential draw.

Let's say we have a flush draw the pot has $400 in it and we are facing a bet of $100.
That would be 5-1 odds on a 4.2-1 odds chance of hitting the draw... (if im correct)

However this is where I get a bit confused. We must have contributed to that pot to see the flop. So how can we be getting these odds? Why do we not simply count the money our opponent(s) have contributed to the pot?

Maybe a silly question but any help would be most appreciated!

 

[Phoenix Wright]

Good observation. I thought the same when I was first learning about pot odds too. The short answer: pot odds is only one calculation (how much required to call in risk:reward ratio), but other decisions should impact your decision on to call or not. For example: the possibility of your opponent betting again on the next street may influence your decision to continue or not.

Just because you are getting good odds now, that might not mean the play is best long-term (although this point is usually avoided in pot odds lessons because it is thinking a bit more long term).

However, the calculation for pot odds works perfectly when you are guaranteed to make it to showdown (like calculating pot odds on the River when you are last to act or when facing a single opponent all-in shove)

 

[NWPatriot]

... Let's say we have a flush draw the pot has $400 in it and we are facing a bet of $100.
That would be 5-1 odds on a 4.2-1 odds chance of hitting the draw... (if im correct)

However this is where I get a bit confused. We must have contributed to that pot to see the flop. So how can we be getting these odds? Why do we not simply count the money our opponent(s) have contributed to the pot?

Maybe a silly question but any help would be most appreciated!

Not a silly question at all.

In poker, we can only make one decision at a time. Pot odds gives us one piece of information, but it is not the whole story. Is our flush a nut flush, or a medium flush that can be beat? This will affect our equity in the hand. Do we have any other way to win the hand?

EV (expected value) is a very good tool to help us make good decisions as well. If you haven't yet dug into the concept of EV you should make this one of the next things you look into. For EV when you call with 20% equity: 20% of the time you will win $500, and 80% of the time you will lose your bet of $100 ((.20 * 500) - (.80 * 100)) = 100 - 80 = +20EV.

So this is a +EV play. But if you have a +20EV play, your opponent has a +380EV play. The sum of you and your opponents EV must equal the pot you are fighting for. As you can see, we can talk ourselves into making this call because it has more EV than our fold which would have 0EV. Our opponent doesn't necessarily know he has 80% equity here, but he has more EV than you and he should continue to pull away from you if the two of you keep making this same play over and over again. What you really want is an EV that is bigger than half the pot. This is when you have an advantage over your opponent, rather than just a choice between two bad decisions. But, we can't always dictate our situation in poker, can we?

Most poker decisions are singular in nature. We tend to ignore our previous choices in a hand. I think you are correct in keeping these in mind - the total invested in the pot is your "line" for the hand, rather than the "play" you are describing. Continually investing in marginal EV situations may be fine in a cash game because it will work out over time, but in a tournament, you may want to save chips for better spots. I call this risk management. We should always make good decisions, but continual investment in low equity situations will catch up to sooner or later.

Good luck and God bless

 

[JR1987]

Ah thank you for the comprehensive replies. I will have to look further into EV and implied odds. I imagine pot odds are just one piece of the puzzle and it will all start to fit when I understand the rest of it

 

[eetenor]

Im only about a month into my study and playing of poker (just at NL2), Ive learnt alot and my game has started to improve which is encouraging.

Im practicing pot odds and how to put them into my game.

The only thing that confuses me a bit is when we are talking about getting value and better odds for our potential draw.

Let's say we have a flush draw the pot has $400 in it and we are facing a bet of $100.
That would be 5-1 odds on a 4.2-1 odds chance of hitting the draw... (if im correct)

However this is where I get a bit confused. We must have contributed to that pot to see the flop. So how can we be getting these odds? Why do we not simply count the money our opponent(s) have contributed to the pot?

Maybe a silly question but any help would be most appreciated!

Thank U 4 posting

Great responses by other members, very good to learn what they are referring too.

Let me answer your question simply. The moment we put money into the pot it is no longer our money. It is the pot. So we calculate our odds on winning the pot which contains money that is no longer ours. When we lose we do not get any portion of our money back so until we win it belongs to the pot. The same for all players putting money into the pot. We treat our bets as gone until they comeback to us

Hope this helps

 

[EarnDAStack]

You have to look at every decision you make in poker as some what of it's own equation, If you c bet a flop for example and then its time to make a turn decision, none of the money in the pot belongs to you anymore, so you have to factor the size of the pot at that time in making your next decision.

Essentially once money has been added to the pot it is no longer anyone except the eventual winner of the hand. To make money in poker, you have to fight over the money in the middle!!