Prefer AA or KK allin vs 88? :)

[sam1chips]

And if you're jamming with KK, you MIGHT end up getting called with AA and end up being crushed. I would much rather end up going all in with AA, and losing the 0.5% when i go up against 88

 

[sam1chips]

If you're not willing to ship KK preflop at any stage of a regular MTT, then you're making a huge mistake. To even attempt to argue otherwise says you really don't have a grasp on hand equities and long term results. I would have to have a soul read of the deepest caliber -- basically someone with 0% PFR after 200 hands or something -- to not be willing to get AIPF with KK.

For the record, not going all in with KK (especially in tournaments) because you are worried about the opponent having A7 and winning 33% of the time is an extremely huge mistake in the long run...as dmorris said.

Sure, when your KK loses you can go cry and swear or whatever, but when you start deciding to fold KK, that's when you're making mistakes

 

[sam1chips]

Obviously non-standard spots like satty/DON bubbles or multi-million dollar pay jump bubbles may dictate you fold 100% of hands, but that's not what you implied here.

I folded AA preflop one time, top 40 people got a ticket with 43 people left, and I was already in a real safe place haha. But that is a discussions for another time.

 

[dmorris68]

I folded AA preflop one time, top 40 people got a ticket with 43 people left, and I was already in a real safe place haha. But that is a discussions for another time.

Not that uncommon on a satty/DON bubble, as I said. I've done it a few times when I was short-stacked and just barely ITM.

 

[HooDooKoo]

I know this will be a bitter pill for you to swallow, because you can *never* admit when you're wrong, but you're WAY wrong here. This is almost as bad as the people who argue folding AA preflop in a multi-way pot.

If you're not willing to ship KK preflop at any stage of a regular MTT, then you're making a huge mistake. To even attempt to argue otherwise says you really don't have a grasp on hand equities and long term results. I would have to have a soul read of the deepest caliber -- basically someone with 0% PFR after 200 hands or something -- to not be willing to get AIPF with KK.

Obviously non-standard spots like satty/DON bubbles or multi-million dollar pay jump bubbles may dictate you fold 100% of hands, but that's not what you implied here.

I agree with dmorris 600% about everything in this post, both poker stuff and Paler's personality.

I reiterate. 600%. Literally. Try that on for size.

-HooDooKoo

 

[albeguebe]

Hold'em Simulation
1,712,304 trials (Exhaustive)
ks kh 80.20% 1,370,776 5,130
8d 8c 19.80% 336,398 5,130


Hold'em Simulation
1,712,304 trials (Exhaustive)
as ah 79.80% 1,364,288 4,370
8d 8c 20.20% 343,646 4,370



A board with 9,T,J,Q (no K or flush) wins for 88 vs AA, but loses for 88 vs KK

 

[curtinsea]

Hold'em Simulation
1,712,304 trials (Exhaustive)
ks kh 80.20% 1,370,776 5,130
8d 8c 19.80% 336,398 5,130


Hold'em Simulation
1,712,304 trials (Exhaustive)
as ah 79.80% 1,364,288 4,370
8d 8c 20.20% 343,646 4,370



A board with 9,T,J,Q (no K or flush) wins for 88 vs AA, but loses for 88 vs KK

This is what is known as a distinction without a difference, in practical application. The rest is mental masturbation, IMHO

 

[Propane Goat]

How about this for an interesting tidbit:

From poker odds calculator, all are HU pre-flop:

AA vs 88: 79.68% vs. 20.07%, 0.26% chance of chop.

KK vs 88: 80.05% vs. 19.64%, 0.3% chance of chop.

99 vs. 88: 80.95% vs. 18.46%, 0.59% chance of chop.

According to this you are actually stronger against 88 if you hold 99; you hold two of the cards 88 needs to make a 9 high or better straight. However, if you have a higher pair than 88 then these fractions of a percent are small drops in a big ocean.

 

[HooDooKoo]

How about this for an interesting tidbit:

From poker odds calculator, all are HU pre-flop:

AA vs 88: 79.68% vs. 20.07%, 0.26% chance of chop.

KK vs 88: 80.05% vs. 19.64%, 0.3% chance of chop.

99 vs. 88: 80.95% vs. 18.46%, 0.59% chance of chop.

According to this you are actually stronger against 88 if you hold 99.

Many of us knew that, but that wasn't the question.

-HooDooKoo

 

[Diogo7]

Quite honestly I prefer KK, because lately whenever I lose out AA ... : S However either AA or KK against 88 we are always at the outset (pre-flop) in front so any one of these peers is a good hand against 88 ...

 

[Propane Goat]

Many of us knew that, but that wasn't the question.

-HooDooKoo

Ok, then I prefer KK. Better?

 

[HooDooKoo]

Ok, then I prefer KK. Better?

Yes; I approve.

-HooDoo

 

[CrossedLine]

Very interesting, thought provoking arguement. Sitting at work. Its much easier to say I'd rather have Aces but the flipside makes sense.

 

[Michael Paler]

I know this will be a bitter pill for you to swallow, because you can *never* admit when you're wrong, but you're WAY wrong here. This is almost as bad as the people who argue folding AA preflop in a multi-way pot.

If you're not willing to ship KK preflop at any stage of a regular MTT, then you're making a huge mistake. To even attempt to argue otherwise says you really don't have a grasp on hand equities and long term results. I would have to have a soul read of the deepest caliber -- basically someone with 0% PFR after 200 hands or something -- to not be willing to get AIPF with KK.

Obviously non-standard spots like satty/DON bubbles or multi-million dollar pay jump bubbles may dictate you fold 100% of hands, but that's not what you implied here.

I can easily admit when I am wrong and have (unlike many). I just was not wrong about a subject we went back and forth on previously (obviously, from you comments; let it go man) and you were and still are upset about it. Because you could not adequately defend yourself, which is not my problem. Grow up.

As for this subject, you want to risk it all early in an MTT by say, shoving KK UTG, you go for it. I'll leave it to others to decide if it's good advice or not (it's not, IMO).

Either way, I'll look over at the rail and wave to you.:cheers:

 

[murrdog]

very interesting concept....and as we all know ,the longer we play there more that .5% diff. is going to make

 

[dmorris68]

I can easily admit when I am wrong and have (unlike many). I just was not wrong about a subject we went back and forth on previously (obviously, from you comments; let it go man) and you were and still are upset about it. Because you could not adequately defend yourself, which is not my problem. Grow up.

I don't even remember the details of what you're talking about, but even so I can assure you that you're delusional. I defend myself quite well, thank you. In fact I never wade into a discussion to present my position without facts or experience to backup what I'm talking about. There are areas where I have decades of experience and professional knowledge, some that I only have a small working or theoretical knowledge of, and others that I'm clueless about. I only weigh in on the former, never the latter. I'm sure others who have been around awhile can tell you that as well.

You love to hide behind the opinion shield, that I do remember. If someone tells you you're wrong, it's just a "your opinion against theirs" with you. And then you resort to insults and condescension. Sorry, but no -- sometimes you're just wrong and need to be called out on it. You act as if your opinions are sacred. Your opinion means exactly shit in the face of facts or even just consensus. I can have an "opinion" that Mars has a breathable atmosphere. It doesn't make it valid, and I'd look pretty stupid having an argument about it while hiding behind nothing but my opinion. You tend to do a lot of that.

The fact that you think you "got the best of me" is somewhat humorous to be sure. Again I don't remember the subject, but as I recall, my responses to you were to try and reorient any members here who might have been led astray by some of the comments you deliver with an air of authority (on ANY subject, and this thread is a perfect example of that), no matter how asinine they may be.

I might let your opinions go on other subjects that I'm not passionate about, but this forum is primarily aimed at helping people play better poker, and when someone like you is giving blatantly bad advice, I and others here are going to call you out on it. Trust me when I tell you that winning you over wasn't my concern, because it's obvious you're a lost cause. You flatter yourself if you think I need your validation for anything or that I "can't let it go."

TL;DR:

When your opinions are nonsense, you're going to get called out. If you can't handle it, then you're invited to find another online community where you can use your opinions and condescending tone to bully others around. It ain't happening here.

I won't continue to participate in this particular discussion with you, but I absolutely will continue to call you out if you continue to post BS as fact on subjects that I hold dear.

 

[ScottishMatt]

I had a similar discussion (or tried to) with Michael when he thought it best to fold bottom set if you put your opponent on top two. You're wrong in this Michael. When next you post please indicate that the advice you are giving is very opinionated and has little to none objective reasoning, so as to not confuse learning players.

 

[HooDooKoo]

I had a similar discussion (or tried to) with Michael when he thought it best to fold bottom set if you put your opponent on top two. You're wrong in this Michael. When next you post please indicate that the advice you are giving is very opinionated and has little to none objective reasoning, so as to not confuse learning players.

Don't be ridiculous, Scottish. In the event that one of their four outs hits, you are HOSED. You should never risk all your chips when you're only an 83+% favorite. Wait until you have the nuts, and then --- and only then --- put all your chips on the line. You'll always get callers in that case --- often multiple callers because several players will assume you're bluffing --- and you'll never lose.

-HooDooKoo

P.S. For any of you that are not clear on this, this post is wholly sarcastic. If you don't get all your chips in in this spot (assuming that your opponent(s) will), then you are missing out on one of the best opportunities in NL hold'em.

 

[sam1chips]

Don't be ridiculous, Scottish. In the event that one of their four outs hits, you are HOSED. You should never risk all your chips when you're only an 83+% favorite. Wait until you have the nuts, and then --- and only then --- put all your chips on the line. You'll always get callers in that case --- often multiple callers because several players will assume you're bluffing --- and you'll never lose.

-HooDooKoo

P.S. For any of you that are not clear, this post is wholly sarcastic. If you don't get all your chips in in this spot (assuming that your opponent(s) will), then you are missing out on one of the best opportunities in NL hold'em.

I only play quads personally.

 

[Debi]

Seriously? Did you not read what I said? Donks with any ace will call early in the MTT. I see KK go down in flames all the time after being shoved preflop to some loon calling with ace rag. And I do mean rag. See many go out with kicker trouble as well. You may be a 70% favorite, but that is in an ideal situation. Heavy concentrations of calling stations are not part of that 70% figure.

Do what you want, It's just sad to see that happen.

What is sad is you suggesting that MTT players should not shove KK early in a tournament because they might get called by A rag. I 100% do not mind busting early in a tournament making that play - have done it more than once. It makes the times I double up and some worth it. Your goal in an MTT is to end up with all of the chips - not to fold or under bet monster hands til you are forced to shove a small stack in the middle and late stages.

I'm not really an MTT player, so it doesn't much matter. But there aren't a lot of spots in poker where you can get all your chips in AND GET CALLED as a 70% favorite --- so I'll take my chances preflop with cowboys.

Thanks.

-HooDoo

+1

. This is almost as bad as the people who argue folding AA preflop in a multi-way pot.

If you're not willing to ship KK preflop at any stage of a regular MTT, then you're making a huge mistake. To even attempt to argue otherwise says you really don't have a grasp on hand equities and long term results. I would have to have a soul read of the deepest caliber -- basically someone with 0% PFR after 200 hands or something -- to not be willing to get AIPF with KK.

Obviously non-standard spots like satty/DON bubbles or multi-million dollar pay jump bubbles may dictate you fold 100% of hands, but that's not what you implied here.

+1

I can easily admit when I am wrong and have (unlike many). I just was not wrong about a subject we went back and forth on previously (obviously, from you comments; let it go man) and you were and still are upset about it. Because you could not adequately defend yourself, which is not my problem. Grow up.

As for this subject, you want to risk it all early in an MTT by say, shoving KK UTG, you go for it. I'll leave it to others to decide if it's good advice or not (it's not, IMO).

Either way, I'll look over at the rail and wave to you.:cheers:

First - don't tell my moderators to grow up when they are doing their job in the forum. I have a low tolerance for my unpaid assistants being treated with disrespect.

Second - it is good advice and any experienced and knowledgeable player will support that in this situation. (there might be rare exceptions for very experienced players but that is not for this thread discussion).

Sorry - but we have a lot of members here trying to learn the game and when advice is this bad it needs to be pointed out. When you have multiple good players saying you are wrong step back and re-think your position.

 

[HooDooKoo]

I've seen Mr. Paler here recently, but no posts in this thread. No admission he's wrong. No biased, illogical, partronizing or condescending retorts.

Does that mean he's finally cried "Uncle"? I sure hope so ...

 

[sam1chips]

...And then even if you get 3 callers with mediocre cards, you are probably roughly around a 50% favorite to win the hand. But at that point, you are not playing to double up, you are playing to quadruple up! So in the long run, if you get into that situation 1000 times, half the time you will multiply your stack by 4, and most likely take control of the tournament

 

[DonV73]

Hold'em Simulation
1,712,304 trials (Exhaustive)
ks kh 80.20% 1,370,776 5,130
8d 8c 19.80% 336,398 5,130


Hold'em Simulation
1,712,304 trials (Exhaustive)
as ah 79.80% 1,364,288 4,370
8d 8c 20.20% 343,646 4,370



A board with 9,T,J,Q (no K or flush) wins for 88 vs AA, but loses for 88 vs KK

That's interesting. I guess not a few players realize this.
In reality it wouldn't change anyone's decision ofcourse since it is just a small difference, but an interesting fact still

 

[thesharkuk]

kk better vs 88 but i always folded kings preflop anyway so i can't possibly discuss, only hands worth playing are aces and 22 on the odd occasion suited connectors kq qj j10 89 78 67 56 and j3 sooooted everything else fold

 

[dmorris68]

Levels ITT...