Poker and Gambling.

[Andriy Doshchyn]

Obviously, proffesional poker is not gambling. For me, it`s analytical job over huge distance. Of course, you can play over 1000000 hands with plus EV and loose all your money instead. But with nearly the same probability, your money can be stolen from your deposit account in bank. So, why this is not gambling? To me, gambling - activity, where getting adrenaline is more important for person than making money.

 

[OzExorcist]

"I think you might have made a couple of mistakes here: roulette is by definition a -EV game, there is no way to play it with a positive expectation (unless you're the house, obv)".

Roulette has two defects that can -- and have been -- exploited. One is biased wheels that spin up numbers with a frequency distorted enough to negate the house edge. This has been known since the 1890s. The other defect is allowing bets to be made after the ball is in motion. This makes wheel clocking possible. This has also been exploited, and the counter measure is legislation to make it illegal to use the technology necessary to clock the wheel.

"Same goes for craps"

This game also has a potentially exploitable defect: the players are allowed to handle the dice. The most obvious exploit is switching a loaded die in and out of the game. Influencing fair dice is another. Depending on how you play, if you can make seven come up too infrequently -- or more frequently -- than it should you have an advantage.

Is this possible? Here, I don't know. Stanford Wong seems to have thought it was possible, then he changed his mind and doesn't think so. Maybe he's right, maybe he's not. Maybe dice influencing is something that requires years of practice to master, and maybe it's one of those things that only some weirdly talented individuals like Frank Scoblete, the "Mad Professor", the "Captain" or the "Arm" can do successfully just as not everyone can bat 300+ or shoot a round of golf 6- under par. No matter how hard they try, most folks aren't gonna be considered for even the minor leagues or come close to the PGA tour. Maybe dice influencing is the same?

"So... I'm not quite sure why you wouldn't lump those games in with slots or wheel of fortune?"

That's why. The only way to beat Wheel of Fortune is psychokinesis, and no one's ever done that.

OK sure, if you concoct some unrealistic situation then I guess you can make any game +EV.

Even then though, you'd have to weigh up the time, money and effort it would take to put those conditions in place against the amount of time you'd have to play before you were caught, banned and possibly punished. And against the possibility that the casino will accuse you of cheating and refuse to pay you even if you do win (ask Phil Ivey what that's like).

In the real world for real people though, those games are absolutely -EV.

 

[evan20002]

let me explain :
example : roulette is -EV game,
if you play it for long period of time, you are 99% lose money.
I never see any professional roulette players or make alot of money on it.

Texas poker is +EV game.
if you have skill and patience,
fold your bad hands and wait for KK or better hands,
study other player and check who is the fish.
you can make money

it is not gambling !
But if you
all in with 27 ,
bluff with nothing,
draw with 2 card out
lose all your money, then
it is gambling......

 

[OzExorcist]

let me explain :
example : Roulette is -EV game,
if you play it for long period of time, you are 99% lose money.
I never see any professional roulette players or make alot of money on it.

You'll actually lose 2.7% or 5.26% of your money over the long run, depending on whether you're playing single-zero or double-zero roulette.

As for your poker examples, just as it doesn't stop being gambling just because you're winning, it doesn't stop being gambling if you're a nit

 

[Sevendeuceoff72]

It feels like poker is gambling now more than ever. With all the information available, players are getting better. They understand starting hands and post flop percentages much better. A lot of players recognize draw vs. Over pair and aren't afraid to ship it on the draw (depending on type of player)...so IMO, poker has become more of a gamble than ever

 

[Sevendeuceoff72]

Respond to this post after you get felted with AA against KK or QQ

 

[pashkawell]

Poker is a gamble. But you can increase your chances of winning - correctly playing at a distance.

 

[Dorugremon]

It feels like poker is gambling now more than ever. With all the information available, players are getting better.

No, they're not. Play, both on-line and IRL, is as hideous as ever. The vast majority are strictly recreational players hoping to get lucky and willing to chalk up losses as the price of entertainment. When they're not sitting at the table, they think about Poker like never.

They understand starting hands and post flop percentages much better. A lot of players recognize draw vs. Over pair and aren't afraid to ship it on the draw (depending on type of player)...so IMO, poker has become more of a gamble than ever

Still a distinct minority of players, the vast majority of whom think "range" is where the deer and antelope play, and "equity" has something to do with real estate. If they understood starting hands they wouldn't always be letting the timer run while trying to figure out if their hand is worth a play. They wouldn't be open limping out of the #1 hole with trashy hands like (Qd, 7d).

"A lot of players recognize draw vs. Over pair and aren't afraid to ship it on the draw..."

A lot of those players have a garbled understanding of this. I've seen them do this with naked draws and even draws as weak as gut shots without one overcard to the highest pair on the board. They pay a lot for their folly. Some combo draws can have more equity than a TP hand, even TPTK, but those aren't naked straight and flush draws.

There is a lot of information available, but if you don't use it properly, it does more harm than good.

A little learning is a dan'erous thing
Drink deep or taste not the Pierian spring.
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain
And drinking largely sobers us again

-- Alexander Pope

 

[Sevendeuceoff72]

No, they're not. Play, both on-line and IRL, is as hideous as ever. The vast majority are strictly recreational players hoping to get lucky and willing to chalk up losses as the price of entertainment. When they're not sitting at the table, they think about Poker like never.

Still a distinct minority of players, the vast majority of whom think "range" is where the deer and antelope play, and "equity" has something to do with real estate. If they understood starting hands they wouldn't always be letting the timer run while trying to figure out if their hand is worth a play. They wouldn't be open limping out of the #1 hole with trashy hands like (Qd, 7d).

"A lot of players recognize draw vs. Over pair and aren't afraid to ship it on the draw..."

A lot of those players have a garbled understanding of this. I've seen them do this with naked draws and even draws as weak as gut shots without one overcard to the highest pair on the board. They pay a lot for their folly. Some combo draws can have more equity than a TP hand, even TPTK, but those aren't naked straight and flush draws.

There is a lot of information available, but if you don't use it properly, it does more harm than good.

Well, agree to disagree I guess..I've seen few players playing online or live as terrible as you mention. At the 1/2$ live tables, YES maybe you see this more often but in my experience it is not as frequent as you say. And I would say the majority of online players (at least in the USA) are way more understanding of the game then you are giving them credit for. Playing online in the USA for real $ is a bit of a hassle. What I would think is that only your more serious players are going to go for this

 

[Dorugremon]

^^

Like everything else. it's venue dependent. In my experience, there are still loads of fish, both live and on-line.

 

[OzExorcist]

Well, agree to disagree I guess..I've seen few players playing online or live as terrible as you mention. At the 1/2$ live tables, YES maybe you see this more often but in my experience it is not as frequent as you say. And I would say the majority of online players (at least in the USA) are way more understanding of the game then you are giving them credit for. Playing online in the USA for real $ is a bit of a hassle. What I would think is that only your more serious players are going to go for this

I think there's almost certainly something to this - with the amount of hoops you have to jump through to play online in the US these days, I'd think that would scare off the vast majority of the casual player market.

That's not to say everyone who's left is a winning player, far from it. But given the effort they're going to in order to play online in 2017, one would assume they're people who are at least thinking about their game.

 

[theRaven68]

Gambling definition, the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes
Poker is a family of gambling card games, but is often considered a skill based game

 

[nittany182]

Poker is gambling, you are betting that your cards or demeanor are better than someone else's. If the cards are right or you have the "poker face" it can be reasonably beat, but it is still a gamble every time you buy in.

 

[parks124]

Poker absolutely is gambling because you are placing a bet. It's a gambling game that is part skill (knowing the card odds and reading your opponents well) and its park luck.

 

[GRANDPAPA929]

Poker absolutely is gambling because you are placing a bet. It's a gambling game that is part skill (knowing the card odds and reading your opponents well) and its park luck.

You can bet anywhere and it will not be considered gambling.
The main factor that money(gambling chips) are present directly on the table.
This will relate poker to gambling.

 

[BigJamo]

Gambling is having someone or something decide the winning outcome as for you to win.

Poker is solely based on personal decision making.

 

[diego farfan]

For me it's a hobby to improve concentration skills

 

[rushdaman]

It depends if you are playing poker for fun or if you are playing poker while wagering any amount of money. If you are playing poker for fun i would not consider it gambling. If you are playing poker for any amount of money it is gambling. Poker is a skill game but it also requires quite a bit of luck. Chess on the other hand is a skill game allllll the way because their is no luck involved in the game. When one takes luck out of the equation it becomes a skill. I hope that makes sense.

 

[WebWebber]

Poker is not pure gambling, it has more to do with psychology. Even with bad cards you can bluff a person. You just need a good pokerface and you must also suggest a good hand through your attitude. i think its 30% gambling and 70% psychology

 

[max entropy]

The gamble is a part of the game for sure.

 

[PokerNuts01]

In Poker you have control over your game. Its not like your buying a bingo ticket or playing the roulette where you have no control of the results.
I’m not saying there’s no luck involved but it’s mostly skill on the long run.

 

[diego farfan]

Poker is not a game to raise, it became a sport like chess is a sport of strategy and cunning

 

[Sacredoro]

Yes, poker is gambling, because , like most other activities involves taking risks for possible ultimate reward.

 

[elitenuts]

Poker is a skill game - that being said, it is also gambling. If a poker player can honestly say they never gamble during a game is either lying or the extreme exception. It would be VERY hard to win a tournament without a few gambles going your way. As far as a cash game go's, if you can play that disciplined where you are only making a decision based on pure math than Im not sure how much fun it would be...

If your question is based on morality, then I would lean toward it being a game of skill ;-)

 

[nyteowl352]

I believe tight players and loose players all gamble at some point, but loose players probably more so because they know they are going in behind most times and are taking the chance that they can catch up by showdown time or bluff their opponents out of their chips.