Phil Helmuth - Great player or overrated ?

[OzExorcist]

...I think his troubles at the WSOP go to the fact that he plays the event like he is playing a 6 player ring game, aggression with weak hands and bluffs at a 9 player tournament table can get you trapped and killed...

While that may or may not be correct, we've gotta keep in mind that Negreanu (and many other pros that aren't Allan Kessler, for that matter) don't play the Main Event in the same way a "normal" player would. Just making the money doesn't mean anything to them - if they don't at least make the final table then they'll feel like it was a waste of time and they may as well have just been knocked out on the first hand and gone back to their cash games. So they're playing aggressive in order to either build a big, final-table-making stack or go home early. That means taking risks that "normal" players probably woudn't take.

 

[PlayerPlayerAA]

While that may or may not be correct, we've gotta keep in mind that Negreanu (and many other pros that aren't Allan Kessler, for that matter) don't play the Main Event in the same way a "normal" player would. Just making the money doesn't mean anything to them - if they don't at least make the final table then they'll feel like it was a waste of time and they may as well have just been knocked out on the first hand and gone back to their cash games. So they're playing aggressive in order to either build a big, final-table-making stack or go home early. That means taking risks that "normal" players probably woudn't take.

I agree, of course cashing is not just the goal. But he gives himself no chance with forced play. Its a marathon, not a sprint, and thats how he plays the main event, like he's trying to run a 4.3 40. And then he sits there with this look on his face like geez, what happened. His style is just not condusive(bad spelling, I know) to making the final table of the main event.
Its just my opinion, I understand what your saying, I'm a casher and not a winner, so I truely understand what your saying. Limping along to get to the cash line isn't what he's there for.But I think he could give himself a better chance of winning with tighter, solid play early on,,and I'm not saying play tight, I'm saying play tighter. The stack will grow.

 

[ThunderPT]

I agree, of course cashing is not just the goal. But he gives himself no chance with forced play. Its a marathon, not a sprint, and thats how he plays the main event, like he's trying to run a 4.3 40. And then he sits there with this look on his face like geez, what happened. His style is just not condusive(bad spelling, I know) to making the final table of the main event.
Its just my opinion, I understand what your saying, I'm a casher and not a winner, so I truely understand what your saying. Limping along to get to the cash line isn't what he's there for.But I think he could give himself a better chance of winning with tighter, solid play early on,,and I'm not saying play tight, I'm saying play tighter. The stack will grow.

They start VERY deep in the wsop and there are tons of players there thinking TPTK is enough to get their whole stack in, so there are really good implied odds to play 54. Negreanu's style is to be there in a lot of flops, putting constant pressure and when he finally hits, he'll win the other guy's whole stack.

You've also probably saw Patrik Antonius call a 3bet with something like 53. How do you explain this? Well, the other guy probably had a very tight range to 3bet Patrik, he had to have a premium pair, maybe AK. If Patrik gets a set or 2 pair in a flop of low/middle cards, Patrik knows the other guy won't be folding his overpair, so the implied odds are there. That's the problem with a lot of amateurs at the WSOP, they use the same strategy they use at the online tourneys with 1500 starting chips and 10/20 blinds. They're too tight, they're easily readable and they mostly play hands that win small pots and lose big ones.

 

[OzExorcist]

His style is just not condusive(bad spelling, I know) to making the final table of the main event very often

FYP

You're saying it's not going to work based on a few years worth of results. It's obviously a strategy that carries with it much higher risks than nitting your way across the bubble, but someone like Negreanu (who's in all likelihood going to play every Main Event between now and the day he drops dead) can afford to take a much longer-term view where the results of a few years don't matter a damn in the broader scheme of things.

 

[dmorris68]

^^^ Exactly. A $10K ME buy-in is nothing for him, but the potential payout is huge. Daniel is notorious for dropping 30 bullets on a single $1500 rebuy event so he can play an uber-aggressive push game early on to build a huge stack. He's a classic case of "bet big or go home," and when he hits, the payouts more than cover his missed buy-ins.

Consider this: Daniel is rated 2nd highest in all-time career earnings, behind only Phil Ivey.

 

[Poker Orifice]

If it weren't for luck... he'd win 'em all!!

 

[Aldito]

He's an absolute legend, but I don't think he ever really adapted that well to young online players.