Phil Helmuth - Great player or overrated ?

[Poker Orifice]

I'm nutty then. The game has mostly evolved past him, and he's a bit delusional about it. He has skils, and he's had his day in the spotlight, but there's a ton of better players than him now.


Even though it's pretty obvious by his TV play, who said I'm going by TV? It's widely said and written by the people who play with him regularly. He's a cash donk by all accounts, and not just on TV. Even his friends say that. When he walks into a room all the cash grinders and old-timers start salivating uncontrollably.

dmorris.. I actually agree with almost 100% of your first post in this thread (and glad you wrote it so I didn't feel the need to). ie. I have heard many times that Phil H. is a great guy, an awesome family man, etc.

Personally I like him & would think it'd be cool to meet him.

As far as him never winning another wsop bracelet... I'd have to disagree. Probably not in NLHE obviously (although he did go fairly deep in a SCOOP Event on Stars this year.. was kinda fun watching him) but in some of the other games I think he is still in contention.

 

[dmorris68]

^^^ It's certainly not outside the realm of possibility for him to earn another bracelet I suppose, it's just that his game isn't what it used to be, and the game isn't what it used to be back when he was on top of the game. If that makes sense.

And I really don't know about how he'll do in non-NLHE games. He's always been a NLHE tournament specialist. 7 of his 11 bracelets are in NLHE, with 3 in Limit, and 1 in Pot Limit. And you can see from his winnings list how he started out like gangbusters but then seriously slowed down since the poker boom post-2003 which was another watershed moment in the evolution of the game that just left him behind. He's only won 2 since, the last in 2007. I obviously can't say he'll *never* win another bracelet, but I think the odds are much more against him than his successors.

From Wikipedia:

1989 $10,000 No Limit Hold'em World Championship $755,000
1992 $5,000 Limit Hold'em $168,000
1993 $1,500 No Limit Hold'em $161,400
1993 $2,500 No Limit Hold'em $173,000
1993 $5,000 Limit Hold'em $138,000
1997 $3,000 Pot Limit Hold'em $204,000
2001 $2,000 No Limit Hold'em $316,550
2003 $2,500 Limit Hold'em $171,400
2003 $3,000 No Limit Hold'em $410,860
2006 $1,000 No Limit Hold'em with rebuys $631,863
2007 $1,500 No Limit Hold'em $637,254
​

And in winnings, sure he's 4th all time over the 21 years since his ME win, but look who's ahead of him now in just the past relatively few years:

1st - Phil Ivey
2nd - Daniel Negreanu
3rd - Jamie Gold (LOL, one-hit-wonder and all around pretty bad poker player)

In summary, as much as we love to hate the guy, I give Helmuth credit for his tournament poker skills over the last couple of decades. He also has an uncanny ability to read people and make heroic laydowns. And he's obviously a very charitable and stand-up guy away from the tables. I just think his big winning days are behind him. I'd like to be proven wrong though, as I'm interested in seeing how he would act and how much more his ego would inflate if he were to pull down another ME win.

 

[Rldetheflop]

It's a good play for a variety of reasons:

1) He's defending his blind like he shouls.
2) He may think he can outplay his opponent after the flop, even out of position
3 and most important) Don't forget they are very deep. 76 is a hand with potential. If he misses, he can easily let his hand go without losing much. If he hits his straight (or maybe a full house), he may get his opponent's whole stack. The implied odds are definitely there.

In deepstack tournaments these kind of hands (preferably suited) are way better than AK.

I could see a call suited although still we want to play this hand in position. The problem with this hand here is that he hit his seven and it cost him a chunk of his stack to an overpair.

 

[JOEBOB69]

In all since of thought i agree with dm on this but what that post don't show is how good he is in his business savvy.Besides a few poker players that were smart enough to get on the online game.Phil Hellmuth as to be his own greatest asset.He new when the game went big to make is name known to anybody who plays poker as a given.Which he did and i respect him for that aspect of his knowledge.But has for the poker yes he still thinks it's the 90's an he is the only one that knows how to play the game.In reality he is far far behind all these new players an i for one think he knows it his self.
Thanks,Joe

 

[smurray139]

In football if you win a world trophy you are immediately a legend.

In darts you are a great player. Phil Taylor has won countless world championships. Why should poker be any different?

 

[JOEBOB69]

^WTF are talking about.

 

[Mr Whatever]

morris u type: The game has mostly evolved past him (helmuth), and he's a bit delusional about it. He has skils, and he's had his day in the spotlight, but there's a ton of better players than him now.

ur craaaaazy, lolololo. im not a helmuth fan but to say the game has evolved past him is . . . . . . . .lololol look at what hes done in the last few yrs.

http://www.wsop.com/players/playerprofile.asp?playerID=271

the guy beat the old schoolers with their tight game 20 yrs ago and is still beating the new kids with their aggressive game today.

not only has he had multiple cashes in wsop events every yr recently, but strong finishes out of monster crowds. u compare him to ivey and negreanu try to play him down. i dont see the weakness or the "game evolving past him" like some of the other old school players from his results.

look if u dont like him, just say u dont and forget it. no reason to detract from his skill. the spotlight is still on him not only for his nonsense but every1 knows hes still an awesome player. yeah there are a few ppl probably better than him in wsop tourns. . . . a few ... . . like a hand full lololololololololol

 

[ckickenking]

I agree with everyone who says he is great TV, no doubt. The whining and insults just make more people want to tune in to see what kind of blow up is next. It also makes people want to target him. I agree he is a great NLHE tourney player, but lately he has been less than great, or at least less great than he says he is.
11 bracelets is great, but that took 20 years with smaller, less intelligent fields. The young guns these days will have 40 bracelets in 20 years...

40 bracelets in 20 years? Yeah, I don't think so, maybe 3 at most. Too many good players now

 

[onemorechance]

^WTF are talking about.

Isn't it obvious? He's saying that in any other competition, the amount of trophies you win determines your reputation. The problem with his analogy is that it doesn't really work. Just because someone/some team won competitions 20, 30 years ago and were great then, doesn't mean they're/they would be great now. Phil might have been a great tournament player like 20 years ago, but he's not one of the best in the world right now, just like a football team who titles 30/40 years ago might not succeed in today's game

Oh fwiw, I'm talking about football as in soccer

Edit - I explained that really bad but whatever, it's readable. Just.
Cliffs - Phil used to be great, now he isn't. This is based on no experience of playing with him whatsoever

 

[Mr Whatever]

the guy has made a final table at the wsop every yr since 1988, except for 2009 where he still had 14th and 17th finish placings. lololololol

i kinda like his odds of winning 1 more bracelet.


i have no idea how u ppl could say he doesnt "have it anymore"?

 

[salim271]

Hellmuth spends a boatload on WSOP every year from what I hear... I really havent seen much from him lately, I think that NLHE is getting ahead of him. His reads can be spot on or completely off from what I've seen... I really don't see him taking down the ME again, and obviously his skill outside of no limit hold'em isnt anything special (at a pro's level, anyways.) but winning 11 bracelets is no small feat.

Is he a good NLHE player...? Yes, its too early to say whether hes running bad, or if the Poker Brat is losing his touch. In another five years, if he hasnt won any more bracelets I would say that the game has moved past him, and he wasn't able to adapt.

 

[poker d player]

^^^ It's certainly not outside the realm of possibility for him to earn another bracelet I suppose, it's just that his game isn't what it used to be, and the game isn't what it used to be back when he was on top of the game. If that makes sense.

And I really don't know about how he'll do in non-NLHE games. He's always been a NLHE tournament specialist. 7 of his 11 bracelets are in NLHE, with 3 in Limit, and 1 in Pot Limit. And you can see from his winnings list how he started out like gangbusters but then seriously slowed down since the poker boom post-2003 which was another watershed moment in the evolution of the game that just left him behind. He's only won 2 since, the last in 2007. I obviously can't say he'll *never* win another bracelet, but I think the odds are much more against him than his successors.

From Wikipedia:

1989 $10,000 No Limit Hold'em World Championship $755,000
1992 $5,000 Limit Hold'em $168,000
1993 $1,500 No Limit Hold'em $161,400
1993 $2,500 No Limit Hold'em $173,000
1993 $5,000 Limit Hold'em $138,000
1997 $3,000 Pot Limit Hold'em $204,000
2001 $2,000 No Limit Hold'em $316,550
2003 $2,500 Limit Hold'em $171,400
2003 $3,000 No Limit Hold'em $410,860
2006 $1,000 No Limit Hold'em with rebuys $631,863
2007 $1,500 No Limit Hold'em $637,254
​

And in winnings, sure he's 4th all time over the 21 years since his ME win, but look who's ahead of him now in just the past relatively few years:

1st - Phil Ivey
2nd - Daniel Negreanu
3rd - Jamie Gold (LOL, one-hit-wonder and all around pretty bad poker player)

In summary, as much as we love to hate the guy, I give Helmuth credit for his tournament poker skills over the last couple of decades. He also has an uncanny ability to read people and make heroic laydowns. And he's obviously a very charitable and stand-up guy away from the tables. I just think his big winning days are behind him. I'd like to be proven wrong though, as I'm interested in seeing how he would act and how much more his ego would inflate if he were to pull down another ME win.

How could Gold still be in 3rd ? I would think winners since him in the ME would have won more. Was that the largest pay out for the ME ? Looks like that is the case if this info is accurate.

 

[MrSpades12]

he's grat player but bad sportsmenship but i guess thats what us talking about him. He has more wins in him he seems to be refocused just from the diffrent interviews i have seen.

 

[wagon596]

He sure as hell not my favorite player by far, but you can't argue the results he has. Maybe he acts that way to get the results he wants at the table.
take care

 

[dmorris68]

How could Gold still be in 3rd ? I would think winners since him in the ME would have won more. Was that the largest pay out for the ME ? Looks like that is the case if this info is accurate.

Yes, the 2006 ME had the largest payout for 1st so far at $12M.

2007 = $8.25M
2008 = $9.15M
2009 = $8.55M

So in a single tournament win, Gold earned more than Hellmuth's lifetime earnings to this day. Pretty sick actually. Hellmuth is 100x the player Gold is.

 

[nc_royals]

Great player that I do think is finding it difficult to adjust in today's super aggressive games. I think he should stick with tourneys and stay away from the cash games that you see him at.

I will admit I'd like to see him do what he said earlier this year... that he's going to be on better behavior and not berate players. I havent seen that to be the case yet.

 

[Poker Orifice]

^^^ It's certainly not outside the realm of possibility for him to earn another bracelet I suppose, it's just that his game isn't what it used to be, and the game isn't what it used to be back when he was on top of the game. If that makes sense.

And I really don't know about how he'll do in non-NLHE games. He's always been a NLHE tournament specialist. 7 of his 11 bracelets are in NLHE, with 3 in Limit, and 1 in Pot Limit. And you can see from his winnings list how he started out like gangbusters but then seriously slowed down since the poker boom post-2003 which was another watershed moment in the evolution of the game that just left him behind. He's only won 2 since, the last in 2007. I obviously can't say he'll *never* win another bracelet, but I think the odds are much more against him than his successors.


From Wikipedia:

1989 $10,000 No Limit Hold'em World Championship $755,000 ​

1992 $5,000 Limit Hold'em $168,000 ​

1993 $1,500 No Limit Hold'em $161,400 ​

1993 $2,500 No Limit Hold'em $173,000 ​

1993 $5,000 Limit Hold'em $138,000 ​

1997 $3,000 Pot Limit Hold'em $204,000 ​

2001 $2,000 No Limit Hold'em $316,550 ​

2003 $2,500 Limit Hold'em $171,400 ​

2003 $3,000 No Limit Hold'em $410,860 ​

2006 $1,000 No Limit Hold'em with rebuys $631,863 ​

2007 $1,500 No Limit Hold'em $637,254​

And in winnings, sure he's 4th all time over the 21 years since his ME win, but look who's ahead of him now in just the past relatively few years:

1st - Phil Ivey
2nd - Daniel Negreanu
3rd - Jamie Gold (LOL, one-hit-wonder and all around pretty bad poker player)

In summary, as much as we love to hate the guy, I give Helmuth credit for his tournament poker skills over the last couple of decades. He also has an uncanny ability to read people and make heroic laydowns. And he's obviously a very charitable and stand-up guy away from the tables. I just think his big winning days are behind him. I'd like to be proven wrong though, as I'm interested in seeing how he would act and how much more his ego would inflate if he were to pull down another ME win.

Damn it man..... what... do you like read my mind or something? Obviously agreeing again 100%. Starting to scare me a bit...

 

[CheeseMaker]

Phil Hellmuth is a great player. I've seen phil make some great moves at the table, so he has earned my respect. Even though, he does over react sometimes when he gets a bad beat, he is still a great player!

 

[pol_92121]

i think phill helmutt is agreat player...to win 11 bracelets he couldn't have luck any times...

 

[semajsmadda]

obviously great

If he was not a great player he would not have been in our face for years and we would not be discussing this now. Yes he is a douche but so what? Would we want to watch poker on tv if it was a bunch of plain vanilla personalities? We like to dislike people and he is very unlikable. So watching Helmuth writhe in pain as someone draws out on him is very entertaining. I enjoy it

 

[timboslice4]

Favorite quotes:
"you idiot from Northern Europe"
and "dodging bullets baby"

But yeah he is a jerk but a good player

 

[poker d player]

Yes, the 2006 ME had the largest payout for 1st so far at $12M.

2007 = $8.25M
2008 = $9.15M
2009 = $8.55M

So in a single tournament win, Gold earned more than Hellmuth's lifetime earnings to this day. Pretty sick actually. Hellmuth is 100x the player Gold is.

Thanks for the reply. I just looked it up and was gonna post the info, but see you beat me to it. Strange that they changed the payout structure so that more recent winners of the ME got a lower payout. I doubt that the torny has gotten smaller, but I could be wrong. He really is one lucky sob. I think he really made a fool of himself on high stakes poker claiming he wanted to be the greatest bluffer ever and donking off huge pots. I guess the saying applies "easy come easy go." I'm sure the other players at his table didn't mind tho.

 

[jazzaxe]

I saw a documentary back in the days before the WSOP got so wildly popular (before Moneymaker). They were interviewing guys like Helmuth, Cloutier and Reese. Helmuth said that he knew at least 10 people who would lend him 50K to play (other players) and that he was one of those who would lend to other players. So I do believe that the personal aggression is partly an act. He does believe himself to be a superior player and to play at his level you need that type of ego, so when Joe Nobody knocks him out of a tourney or takes down a crucial hand, he will usually give him something to remember.

 

[robert_wrath]

Helmuth has run into a stone wall upon the Main Event in the last few years. His previous accomplishments (11 bracelets) is truly a feat in itself. Now it looks more like a circus of antics by which further proceeds his reputation. Unfortunately that will lead to his downfall as a poster child to the game.

 

[Ranny]

Are you basing your opinions on whats shown on the tv?

A friend of mine was sat next to Helmuth for 8 hours in the latter stages of a WSOP event and whilst he got given his new nickname of 'misclick', thats another story, he was said to be perfectly pleasant at table.

Then this was a minor event with no cameras.

Its very easy to fall into his tv persona and not the grinder, thats required of any poker player.