I recalled watching HSP and watching how much money all these guys have. PLaying 300/600nl with 100 dollar straddle. then i start reading that many of these players arent even playing 100 percent of their own money. I mean unless you are durrrr, then you are most likely not. Am i right on this?


Also there was a player named eskimo clark and i read about how much moneyhe made from tourneys and now its like hes asking for a stakes just for a 300 dollar tounament. I read an article that a guy who didnt want to disclose his name said most live pros are broke and have backers for tournaments. And even if they hit a big score, they dont get most of it b/c they are staked.


But when you look at the real cash game poker scene, 10/20nl is the highest running game that goes regularly and thats in bellagio in vegas and commerce. Isn't it shockinw how big games don't even exist anymore compared to HSP?


I mean when was the last time there is actually like a 100/200nl game at a casino? It probably happens not counting WSOP less than 3 times a year?


Also im shocked but how could some players who play so high end up going broke or close to it? I read someone mentioned there was a guy who used to play 25/50nl heads up online and he saw him playing 2/5nl shortstacked and once he doubled up, he left.


Does anyone feel like poker gives a false illusion? You see all the money on the table like in HSP but games like that dont even really exist much unless its on TV or WSOP?

Im sure there are some high stakes games out there. For the most part, the television is just to get viewers, that is why it is such high stakes. Some of the players are even sponsored to play on TV.

You're correct on how most games out there are very small though. The casino that i go to back home usually only has 1 table of 2/3/5 deepstack, and most tables are 1/2/2 nlh.

I am sure they are mostly free rolling. Sponsors, endorsements, advertising, royalties, ect.

Why would anyone go through the trouble of getting ready for TV with makeup, contracts, releases, if there wasn't any incentive for them?

Originally Posted by aero87

I am sure they are mostly free rolling. Sponsors, endorsements, advertising, royalties, ect.

Why would anyone go through the trouble of getting ready for TV with makeup, contracts, releases, if there wasn't any incentive for them?

Yes, and why would any pro compete against other tough (equal or better) pros, there is no edge !

There are a lot of perceptions we poker players have. The bigger one in the US is just how many online players are active. It is nowhere near as many as we might think.

At one of the minor Casino's in LA, Hollywood Park, I watched 5 tables of $5-10 or higher and it sure looked like each table had at least 100K on it. I would guess that Commerce or the Bike were running more and larger BI games regularly, like even at 9 in the morning.

Originally Posted by paulyd

I recalled watching HSP and watching how much money all these guys have. PLaying 300/600nl with 100 dollar straddle. then i start reading that many of these players arent even playing 100 percent of their own money. I mean unless you are durrrr, then you are most likely not. Am i right on this?


Also there was a player named eskimo clark and i read about how much moneyhe made from tourneys and now its like hes asking for a stakes just for a 300 dollar tounament. I read an article that a guy who didnt want to disclose his name said most live pros are broke and have backers for tournaments. And even if they hit a big score, they dont get most of it b/c they are staked.


But when you look at the real cash game poker scene, 10/20nl is the highest running game that goes regularly and thats in bellagio in vegas and commerce. Isn't it shockinw how big games don't even exist anymore compared to HSP?


I mean when was the last time there is actually like a 100/200nl game at a casino? It probably happens not counting WSOP less than 3 times a year?


Also im shocked but how could some players who play so high end up going broke or close to it? I read someone mentioned there was a guy who used to play 25/50nl heads up online and he saw him playing 2/5nl shortstacked and once he doubled up, he left.


Does anyone feel like poker gives a false illusion? You see all the money on the table like in HSP but games like that dont even really exist much unless its on TV or WSOP?

First off, you have your numbers kind of off. 20NL means that the BB is $0.20, so you would be saying that that's the biggest game running, which I know you meant $20 BB, which would be 2000NL.

Anyways, there are definitely higher stakes than that being played in Vegas. Not in every room, but in some of them. Just watch players twitter accounts and they are talking about it.

MANY players will take out stakes on high buyin MTTs, want to know why? Because there is so much variance in them and the smaller chance that they will win, so they use the stake to spread out the cost to them when they don't win. Look up staking to figure out more about this.

Originally Posted by paulyd

I recalled watching HSP and watching how much money all these guys have. PLaying 300/600nl with 100 dollar straddle. then i start reading that many of these players arent even playing 100 percent of their own money. I mean unless you are durrrr, then you are most likely not. Am i right on this?


Also there was a player named eskimo clark and i read about how much moneyhe made from tourneys and now its like hes asking for a stakes just for a 300 dollar tounament. I read an article that a guy who didnt want to disclose his name said most live pros are broke and have backers for tournaments. And even if they hit a big score, they dont get most of it b/c they are staked.


But when you look at the real cash game poker scene, 10/20nl is the highest running game that goes regularly and thats in bellagio in vegas and commerce. Isn't it shockinw how big games don't even exist anymore compared to HSP?


I mean when was the last time there is actually like a 100/200nl game at a casino? It probably happens not counting WSOP less than 3 times a year?


Also im shocked but how could some players who play so high end up going broke or close to it? I read someone mentioned there was a guy who used to play 25/50nl heads up online and he saw him playing 2/5nl shortstacked and once he doubled up, he left.


Does anyone feel like poker gives a false illusion? You see all the money on the table like in HSP but games like that dont even really exist much unless its on TV or WSOP?

You have made some good points. Poker is one of the hardest ways to earn money from. Its like hurdles where the bar is two times higher than other areas of life. However for the few who make big wins in tournaments life is better.

Let me give you something deeper from a man who had a sweeter slice of capitalism than most of us:

“If you've been playing poker for half an hour and you still don't know who the patsy is, you're the patsy." to quote Warren Buffett, billionaire investor.

Im one of the patsys that plays (only freerolls).

All poker players money usually is easy come and easy go,its hard to come out on top if u play alot ,odds and big fields r stacked against you.

I mean when was the last time there is actually like a 100/200nl game at a casino? It probably happens not counting WSOP less than 3 times a year?

Everytime I have been to seminole hollywood (which is quite often in past year).
There has usually always been a 200/400 mixed omaha,and at least a 50/100 NLHE.
and the being broke is just part of the life of a true grinder,everyone hits the felt from time to time,hell look at the great stu unger.

Originally Posted by left52side

Everytime I have been to seminole hollywood (which is quite often in past year).
There has usually always been a 200/400 mixed omaha,and at least a 50/100 NLHE.
and the being broke is just part of the life of a true grinder,everyone hits the felt from time to time,hell look at the great stu unger.

Are you sure about that? Isn't 50/100nl a rare game? I check that place and 5/10nl is usually highest game going. You sure it wasn't some big tourney?

I just finished reading Ace on the river by Barry Greenstein, i get impression that poker pro life is everything but shine, big final tables, big casino glamour...i guess that pros loans money, get broke and stuff lives day after day, not the kinda life that WPT shows us on tv

Also when they air high stakes poker, how many guys think there are that plays with their own money? I assume its the big names only like ivey, dwan, brunson, antonius, negreanu, zigmund, galfond and the rich businessmen?

Look at Dutch Boyd, he is a bracelet winner and former highstakes player. He recently posted on 2+2 asking for a job and was prepared to work minimum wage.

Back in 2005/2006 Lex Veldhuis used to play $100/200 games against guys like H@££INGOLL and Patrick Antonius. Now he seems to just play $1/2 and $2/4 on Stars. I know he is an sponsored player, but to play games like $100/200 and above it takes more than a sponsorship package.

Surely most of the highstakes guys have to be under rolled for the games they play or are getting help from other means to be able to afford buy ins.

Originally Posted by GregMoore

Look at Dutch Boyd, he is a bracelet winner and former highstakes player. He recently posted on 2+2 asking for a job and was prepared to work minimum wage.

I think there may be more to that story. I just googled Dutch Boyd 2+2 and it seems there was some sort of lawsuit filed against him for using the phrase "Two Plus Two" to direct ppl to strategy articles and gaming services on a Website he and someone else created.

Not saying he's rich by any means but I imagine he has enough connections in the poker world to keep him afloat for awhile, not to mention isn't that guy like a genius or something I would find it hard to believe he would be working minimum wage unless he lost a prop bet or something

Well let's see WSOP Champ Jerry Yang is broke owes IRS Greg Raymer will be broke by the time he goes to trial if it goes that far and Jamie Gold has spent most of his WSOP Money so yes a lot of Pro Poker Players are busted for almost busted Dutch Boyd is writing a book about Pro Poker Secrets so he is broke anyone remember the crap Bryon Micon put out it was a poker system to win tourneys beat he's broke too

Originally Posted by maxima191

Well let's see WSOP Champ Jerry Yang is broke owes IRS Greg Raymer will be broke by the time he goes to trial if it goes that far and Jamie Gold has spent most of his WSOP Money so yes a lot of Pro Poker Players are busted for almost busted Dutch Boyd is writing a book about Pro Poker Secrets so he is broke anyone remember the crap Bryon Micon put out it was a poker system to win tourneys beat he's broke too

Dude, use a period once in a while. Your post gives me a headache.

Originally Posted by ivan130583

muchas de las personas que practican este juego, fácilmente se aferran a el con el afán de que este los salve les de un pasar económico y tienen tanta fe en esto, que su fe los ciega y no les deja ver el daño que este le hace, no solamente perjudica su bolsillo, si no también su vida sentimental, emocional y por que no incluir su vida social, por eso este juego que es tan hermoso hay que tomarlo solamente como divercion, como pasatiempo siempre.
¿si nos gusta el vértigo que llegan a provocar las apuestas por dinero, por que no jugarlas?
yo soy jugador de cash, pero juego solamente para pasar el tiempo siempre mido mis mesas según el poder adquisitivo que tengo, si gano no me voy a volver millonario, pero si pierdo no me va a importar.

CardsChat is English only.

most of the real high stakes games go on behind closed doors you Gotta know somebody who knows somebody to get invited.

Watching the EPT high roller on TV at the moment 50k rebuy. There has been quite a few already so they can't all be broke.!

I remember watching a TV tournament a few years ago now, where a guy who either won it, or cashed huge said in the aftergame interview that he would probably never play poker again. My hazy memory thinks he was from the North Countries of Europe. He sounded convincingly sane.

most poker players are mblers and so they gamble.if they stuck to poker they might be fine but the lure of easy money chews up their bankroll,i am young and have seen it time and again.. my dad has been pro for years and rarely plays no limit in order to help control the swings,but warned me to stay clear of any of the non skilled gambling. i have taken his advise in this and so far have never been broke

Originally Posted by steveiam

Watching the EPT high roller on TV at the moment 50k rebuy. There has been quite a few already so they can't all be broke.!

alot of them have backers and stakes in other players to share their wins and losses to lower variance

Originally Posted by aero87

I am sure they are mostly free rolling. Sponsors, endorsements, advertising, royalties, ect.

Why would anyone go through the trouble of getting ready for TV with makeup, contracts, releases, if there wasn't any incentive for them?

Yah. Why would they want to get that exposure? (their agents must be pissed with them).

Originally Posted by maxima191

Greg Raymer will be broke by the time he goes to trial

WTF are you talking about?

There's a few things to consider here but the short story is yes, there are an awful lot of broke poker players. They could be broke for any number of reasons - maybe they're good at poker but bad at sports betting, maybe it's drugs, maybe they've got terrible bankroll management. Whatever the reason yes, it's a lot more common than you think.

Don't go assuming that every player who takes a stake or pieces out their action is necessarily broke though. There are plenty of good reasons for a winning, non-broke player to do that too, including getting the option to play in games higher than what they're rolled for and spreading their risk more evenly.

intresting thread is there any good books i could read about the true poker pro lifestyle? i was in bellagio this weekend not many big games were running

I can confirm some live poker players in town. They have won big money, but they dont seem rich at all. They are driving normal cars, living in very modest appartments etc. I would say as someone mentioned here. Poker money are easy come, easy go.

uarejelly, I just started Ace on the River and the chapter my Poker Career is a pretty good read. I had my entire live roll stolen at the beginning of May (just under 6K). I had already booked and paid for 8 days in Vegas for WSOP and side events. This is the first time I have borrowed money to play or be staked. When I hear about big names in the game borrowing $$$$$$ to play and live it makes me feel better.

Yes, they are broke because they give their money to the minority of players that take it from all of them.

Once you add travel, accommodations, and living expenses for players playing in the big tourneys (WPT, WSOP, EPT...) you can see how any winnings would be siphoned away. Also, alot of poker players are degens and don't know when to stop, take a break, etc.. It's easy to see if you had previously hit a big score how you would think you can just do it again no problem. The amount of poker players that go broke vs the ones that make a living must be 90/10 or worse.

I know that Steve o'dywer who is regarded as one of the best live tournament players in the world owed out alot of his EPT winnings

just goes to show he was obviously struggling at some point to pay back debts or to pay for his buy ins,

its a bad concept to grasp playing at the top of the spectrum your pretty much gambling as you lose your superior edge, as so many players on there day
are as good as you.
its important to take the time to pick the best games if possible

Timex, a well known player, staker and expert said in an interesting 2+2 podcast, that most players have way less money to their name than we expect. I remember he said a thousand bucks or so. They cannot play anything unless they are staked.

Originally Posted by cotta777

I know that Steve o'dywer who is regarded as one of the best live tournament players in the world owed out alot of his EPT winnings

just goes to show he was obviously struggling at some point to pay back debts or to pay for his buy ins,

its a bad concept to grasp playing at the top of the spectrum your pretty much gambling as you lose your superior edge, as so many players on there day
are as good as you.
its important to take the time to pick the best games if possible

It was pretty funny to hear Steve say straight up in the interview after winning the EPT grand final "it's not all mine, I have backers" and look a little dissapointed. I think most poker players are backed but they just don't make it known.

I wonder if Antonio Esfandiari will ever say how much of the One Drop he had of himself.

Originally Posted by Daniel72

Timex, a well known player, staker and expert said in an interesting 2+2 podcast, that most players have way less money to their name than we expect. I remember he said a thousand bucks or so. They cannot play anything unless they are staked.

Thanks, I went and checked out that podcast. Always been a fan of Timex, he's always seemed like a good all around guy and an awesome poker player. I also learned something new about how Canadians get their US poker winnings taxed at 30% for scores over $5k. Now that's rake.

i'm playing for funn i do not have money i do not need them but if i win i will deserve that prise

A HUGE majority of the poker community is broke... many "professional" grinders can barely pay their bills... The poker lifestyle is portrayed as very glamourous as seen on tv and whatnot, but just like any profession, the people that actually MAKE IT are few and far between.. Keep in mind too that when many of these players make big scores, alot of these "winnings" go back to the backer just to clear makeup..

Professional players writing books about how to make a killing at poker while they themselves are flat broke or close to it remind me of the "gurus" who will show you how to make a fortune overnight flipping houses but won't tell you how many times they've had to file bankruptcy already. I'm not questioning their skills or what they teach, I'm questioning the overall image that they project with the help of the entertainment industry that sucks people in and takes their money, because they've been given a false impression of the lifestyle and what being a poker pro is like. People see all the glamour and big paychecks on TV and want that, but it's just an illusion. There's another thread on these boards started by somebody who wanted to go pro with a $10k bankroll and cut himself off from his family because they wouldn't support him.

To be brutally honest if I had to treat poker as anything other than a hobby I would throw the cards in the fireplace and never look back, it's a brutal way to try and make a living.

I think there were some misunderstandings in this thread. People that play poker "professionally" often fall into different categories. For instance, some famous people you see win a big tournament on tv might not spend endless hours in cash games or have spent years perfecting their edges in games. As such, if they get lucky and win a big tournament it is completely logical that after a few years their amount of money will be back to where it was before the tournament win (depending on the size of the win). That is simply due to the cost of living. However, making the case that many professional poker players that grind out many hours are broke is a much weaker argument, because I personally know quite a few people that use poker as their sole source of income and yes they have ups and downs but they still get their bills paid.

bad bankroll managment, the most players are playing aboth their limits, i played a time long aboth my head, i played in SCOOP en WCOOP played 1/2 online, and of course i busted my pokerstars account, then I went to titan poker ( stupid idea) and lost their because of their big rake (dont play that site its really bad) and then I went back to pokerstars deposited 600 dollars and played the NL10 and NL16 and since then i am consitently winning and I will not play aboth my head ever again, and I dont will bust my account again.

To the other thing high stakes still exist, by my homecasino montesino vienna every begin of the month there is high stakes action, and if you look to macau, there are the biggest cash game on earth but they are not televised.

Originally Posted by afoostenrijk

bad bankroll managment, the most players are playing aboth their limits, i played a time long aboth my head, i played in SCOOP en WCOOP played 1/2 online, and of course i busted my pokerstars account, then I went to titan poker ( stupid idea) and lost their because of their big rake (dont play that site its really bad) and then I went back to pokerstars deposited 600 dollars and played the NL10 and NL16 and since then i am consitently winning and I will not play aboth my head ever again, and I dont will bust my account again.

To the other thing high stakes still exist, by my homecasino montesino vienna every begin of the month there is high stakes action, and if you look to macau, there are the biggest cash game on earth but they are not televised.

Scared money -- watch out for that. Don't play like you can't loose the money. We smell the fear. Besides that, you play cash games only?

Is english a second language of yours? I'm having some trouble understanding you.

its my third language, i speak german and dutch, my english is not that good,
i was never scared when i played the higher limits, but if you have some bad runs then you are very fast out of money. I play now only cash game and with the Fpp I buy in for tournaments. First i played only tournaments http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...35C44.html?t=3 the results where not that bad but i played to high buy in tournaments and lost it all. Now I have 50 Bbi and since then it is going well, and the swings dont matter any more.

Going broke is basically the definition of being a gambler.
You can lose everything in 1 day.
Eventually, you will. Even if you just made $10 million yesterday.
Today, you bet $11 million.

Exactly, every professional gambler goes broke at some point in their career.

It's not true that every professional poker players goes broke at some point in their career. There are plenty of people that have decided that they wanted to beat poker, deposited at micros and slowly worked their way up through the ranks. I'm not saying that the final destination of these players is HSNL, but going broke isn't some rite passage as a poker player. Most high stakes players are broke, but less so as the old guard of high stakes pros changes to the younger players. There's much more accountability with who is busto and stiffing their backers now that high stakes is a might closer community. The old high stakes pros are notorious for being life degens, but time has a way of weeding those people out.

the majority of poker players are broke. thats a pretty easy assumption.

Almost every poker player has a story about once going completely broke...Sad but true.

It's like anything else involving easy money (ex. binking a huge tourney, etc....). Just look at the slew of lottery winners that go flat broke after winning millions; there have been so many they made a tv show about it.

Having to work hard day after day for your money makes you appreciate it so much more.


Notes: Poker is not the same as the lottery, but luck is a big component in both. Poker can be hard work for some, not denying that, but there are far tougher "jobs" out there.

It's not the luck, but the wagering component.
I can literally give a poker player $100 million bucks.
What will be do? He will just go find a table with $5 mil/$10 mil blinds.
This is why every gambler goes broke.
If he gets more money, he just starts to bet bigger.

Have you ever been "up" in Vegas? What did you do? Yea, you started to make huge bets until you gave it all back, and then some.

hell, the people I play have plenty, you can't scare them off a gut shot draw with the river left to come out.

I'm broke, does that count?

Originally Posted by guppystew

hell, the people I play have plenty, you can't scare them off a gut shot draw with the river left to come out.

you know that, that is a good thing? and this players will give you a lot of money in the longrun

Originally Posted by Ladybugger

It's not the luck, but the wagering component.
I can literally give a poker player $100 million bucks.
What will be do? He will just go find a table with $5 mil/$10 mil blinds.
This is why every gambler goes broke.
If he gets more money, he just starts to bet bigger.

Have you ever been "up" in Vegas? What did you do? Yea, you started to make huge bets until you gave it all back, and then some.

That doesnt match for everybody, I have enough money for two lifes to spend, but guess, which limits I play, NL10 Nl16 NL25, i want to build my bankroll up with my own hard work, and i dont want to play like the business man with the big sharks, to donate my money to them. And maybe one day I become a shark myself. when I am up by roullete I go and dont place any bets

Originally Posted by paulyd

I recalled watching HSP and watching how much money all these guys have. PLaying 300/600nl with 100 dollar straddle. then i start reading that many of these players arent even playing 100 percent of their own money. I mean unless you are durrrr, then you are most likely not. Am i right on this?


Also there was a player named eskimo clark and i read about how much moneyhe made from tourneys and now its like hes asking for a stakes just for a 300 dollar tounament. I read an article that a guy who didnt want to disclose his name said most live pros are broke and have backers for tournaments. And even if they hit a big score, they dont get most of it b/c they are staked.


But when you look at the real cash game poker scene, 10/20nl is the highest running game that goes regularly and thats in bellagio in vegas and commerce. Isn't it shockinw how big games don't even exist anymore compared to HSP?


I mean when was the last time there is actually like a 100/200nl game at a casino? It probably happens not counting WSOP less than 3 times a year?


Also im shocked but how could some players who play so high end up going broke or close to it? I read someone mentioned there was a guy who used to play 25/50nl heads up online and he saw him playing 2/5nl shortstacked and once he doubled up, he left.


Does anyone feel like poker gives a false illusion? You see all the money on the table like in HSP but games like that dont even really exist much unless its on TV or WSOP?

Well if your able to find a poker game at all your lucky compared to me. In this little town I'm in I cant ever find or get a poker game going at all. Everyone's to broke around here. Lucky if I get to play in a game at all unless its online.

Seems like I can always do pretty good playing poker, but gamblingball together I have a problem with lol.

I seem to always start out winning sometimes even a lot, but before its over I usually lose everything I've won plus some.

I just dont know when to quit I guess.

I'm a poker player and I'm pretty much broke

Not from playing poker though. I do pretty good when I play. For the most part anyway.

I usually play till I go broke though. Most of time it's from other games I lose my money on not poker.