finaltable1
Legend
Loyaler
Dude, you have to learn the difference between subjective thinking and objective thinking.
Subjective thinking example1: Character A believes that swimming in the ocean is dangerous.
Subjective thinking example2: Character B believes that swimming in the ocean is good for the health.
Subjective thinking example3: Character C believes that it's unfair that he lives in the middle of the desert and has no ocean nearby, and he has NO opinion about swimming in the ocean.
Subjective thinking example4: Characted D believes that one day he will leave his ship, and after 50 years of living on his ship in the ocean he will build a house on the shore.
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These examples are showing you that humans can have their own subjective opinion about different things that he like or dislike. These are subjective opinions and they come from subjective thinking.
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Now about Objective thinking;
Objectively oceans cover 2/3 of our planet's surface.
Objectively oceans consist of salt water.
Objectively whales live in oceans, because there is enough food and space for them.
These examples are showing you that objective thinking and objective opinion is something that is based on the facts.
Subjective opinions might be based on some experience or on some faith, but subjective opinion is based on pure facts.
SO
In other words... subjective opinion is what person believes is true. But objective opinion is what the real truth is.
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Back to KQ.
Subjectively some poker player might never fold 74os or 74s because in his past experience he has won many times with such hands. He even won 4 times in a row with this hand. Now objectively - does it makes this hand a good hand or "must play" hand?
Objectively how can KQ or AK be better than pocket pair? than 22... even if the flop is JTJ... YOu can even have more equity at such flop, you can even have a flush draw in addition to your OESD or GUtshot, BUT these are your chances to have it in the nearest future, while the player with pocket deuces already has a hand that is better. Objectively any pocket pair is better than any connectors, even if it's AK. Objectively pre-flop your AK or KQ are just high cards, while pocket 22 is a pair. So your AK or KQ is something that you're expecting to win with, while 22 is something you're already ahead with.
Have you got it? Subjective vs objective? I hope so, cause your previous posts been looking like some child was typing them.
kowrip
Rock Star
Silver Level
KQs is certainly better than the average starting hand. However, it's a very risky hand to play from EP. There is a very strong chance one of the remaining players has a better hand. Many of those could get you stacked if you overplay KQ (AK/AQ/AA/KK/QQ). In LP with no action in front, sure KQ is worth playing. Just remember not to get too attached to it. Many pros will tell you horror stories about hands like KQ and even AQ.
zinzir
Legend
Silver Level
could you stop Posting those misleading threads in the 'learning poker' section?!
you are giving your personal opinion without any fundamental analysis or mathematics behind it.
saying 'I win most Hands with KQs' is just bullshit. also saying KQ has good equity vs AK or QQ. People that are new to poker might read this and think it's true, while it's not.
KQs vs AKs = 27.6 % Equity
KQs vs AKo = 29.3 % Equtiy
KQs vs QQ = 34.7 % Equity
Would you say losing 7 out of 10 Hands is 'good equity' ?
So you are kinda dominated in all 3 Scenarios. You basically have 3 Outs for each Hand.
Another reason why KQ is thrash is on a K or Q high flop vs AK or AQ, you are also far behind.
KQs vs AKs
flop K 4 9 (no fd for either one)
13.6% Equity for KQs
KQs is a very strong Hand - your opinion
KQs is overrated and a bad Hand - my opinion
KQ has good equity vs AK or QQ - false as proven above
so stop writing those Things. I report all your threads and hope they get deleted because this is not 'learning poker'
Wow, you have no understanding of what a discussion forum is. I thought your post was of good quality until the last paragraph, which turned it into garbage. This is a place where average Joe type members, not poker experts, express their opinions, mainly to interact with each other, have fun and satisfy their curiosity of finding out how other people like them think about poker.
One could learn many things from the forum, but it is an indirect learning and it is the reader's responsibility to judge what resonates with his or her own rationale. For direct learning there are books and articles, written by experts, with credentials and bibliography, people don't need you to come here and regurgitate what you read yourself somewhere, meanwhile berating others. I find personally the thread starter's post to be of much higher quality than yours.
V
Veritas
Rock Star
Silver Level
well you don't know the context or the whole Story behind the last sentence.
this badia guy was starting a lot of threads in the 'learning poker' section where he started giving General advice About his thoughts that are mathematically proven WRONG.
he said Things like KQ has good odds vs AK & QQ
therefor I started reporting all those threads and even the mods agreed, renamed the Topic and put it into the 'General poker' section.
I have no Problem About what he was writing and I don't mind discussing About it, but to give false Information in the learing section to new poker Player should be avoided.
My last sentence sounds harsh, but it was necessary.
so you disagree in your own 2 paragraphs
I can't find anything that refers to a 'much higher Quality' in OP's post.
could you give me some Details About that? I guess not
R
Richard Grant
Rock Star
Silver Level
Seems like a lot of value is found in out-kicking people when both hit top pair. How can you fold 2 streets with top pair?
Works well as a blocker to CBetting bluffs?
Just really hate paying AK/AQ off.
It does look nice in your hand though
Works well as a blocker to CBetting bluffs?
Just really hate paying AK/AQ off.
It does look nice in your hand though
zinzir
Legend
Silver Level
well you don't know the context or the whole Story behind the last sentence.
this badia guy was starting a lot of threads in the 'learning poker' section where he started giving General advice About his thoughts that are mathematically proven WRONG.
he said Things like KQ has good odds vs AK & QQ
therefor I started reporting all those threads and even the mods agreed, renamed the Topic and put it into the 'General poker' section.
I have no Problem About what he was writing and I don't mind discussing About it, but to give false Information in the learing section to new poker Player should be avoided.
My last sentence sounds harsh, but it was necessary.
so you disagree in your own 2 paragraphs
I can't find anything that refers to a 'much higher Quality' in OP's post.
could you give me some Details About that? I guess not
It is an old thread, so it is possible I didn't get the whole picture, and in that case I apologize to you for being harsh myself.
My last paragraph is actually in line with the whole idea expressed in the first paragraphs. He put his own thoughts (good or bad) on the thread, and created original content, you copy-pasted information from an odds calculator and pretty much the original content in your post was limited to the berating itself. That's why I said his post was of higher quality.
Please do not misunderstand me, my message was not about the mathematical aspect of your content which is obviously correct, unlike the thread's starter who is talking about his personal experience with the hand, which of course is limited and skewed by variance. Odds calculators consider millions of situations where KQ could potentially be played, Badia played maybe 50 KQ hands
. But he didn't even claim to be mathematically correct, he just wanted to share his own experience with the hand and invited others to do the same.Now that's just my opinion, and it is always possible that I am wrong. I appreciate you taking your time to reply to my initial quote, and just because we might see things differently does not mean that what you are saying is in any way of less importance to me. So please never hesitate to reply to this or any of my posts and feel free to say anything you like, I promise to read it with interest and consideration. Good luck in everything you do!
Zvezda kz
Legend
Bronze Level
I am so glad that you are confident in this poker hand. I am completely unsure of any of the hands and concentrate mainly on math, opponent, position and my skills. Play on any card you are sure of, and may God grant you to win each hand.
ArmiSoo7
Visionary
Platinum Level
QK is tricky hand to play with. Because if you hit your Q or K in flop, than you are in stupid position, because peoples are playing with AQ and AK. That's why i am not rising pref lop with QK. I mostly lose with that hand as a smaller kicker.
V
Veritas
Rock Star
Silver Level
no Problem and no Need to apologise. like I said, it does Sound harsh if you didn't read the other threads and Posts.It is an old thread, so it is possible I didn't get the whole picture, and in that case I apologize to you for being harsh myself.
My last paragraph is actually in line with the whole idea expressed in the first paragraphs. He put his own thoughts (good or bad) on the thread, and created original content, you copy-pasted information from an odds calculator and pretty much the original content in your post was limited to the berating itself. That's why I said his post was of higher quality.
Please do not misunderstand me, my message was not about the mathematical aspect of your content which is obviously correct, unlike the thread's starter who is talking about his personal experience with the hand, which of course is limited and skewed by variance. Odds calculators consider millions of situations where KQ could potentially be played, Badia played maybe 50 KQ hands
Now that's just my opinion, and it is always possible that I am wrong. I appreciate you taking your time to reply to my initial quote, and just because we might see things differently does not mean that what you are saying is in any way of less importance to me. So please never hesitate to reply to this or any of my posts and feel free to say anything you like, I promise to read it with interest and consideration. Good luck in everything you do!
you are Right, but Posting his thoughts - no matter if 'good or bad' - as General advice in the learning section was the Point which really started annoying me.
and yes, my posted odds where no new insights and only some copy&paste, but at least they were Right
if this Topic was posted originally in the 'General poker' section I would never start argueing like that and tell him that he is Posting bullshit.
thx for your nice Reply, very much appreciated!
Datdude1
Visionary
Bronze Level
I think KQ suited is a very good preflop hand to start with but better than AA or QQ? Absolutely not. With KQ suited preflop you can push and get some weak hands out of the round but no one is going to be pushed out with AA or QQ and unless you get your flop, turn or river, that KQ suited turns into rags. KQ suited is a good preflop hand but the flop still will have a lot to do with the outcome.
C
c0rnBr34d
Visionary
Silver Level
In my opinion it depends on who you ask whether or not KQs is under rated. Most beginners play it faster than they should. I know many regs that play it slower and overfold it as well. Most equity calculators have it in the top 5% of hands so clearly it's very strong pre and post flop. Some of the arguments here against KQs are overly harsh as well. Just because we don't want to get 3 bet with it or it's crushed by AQ+ and QQ+ doesn't mean it's trash. Semi grunch but there is also some value to being able to continue on flush and straight draw flops and it helps block monster hands like KK/QQ/AK/AQ. It's not fun being 3 bet when you raise with TT either but now we don't block anything, and cant flop much in the way of value or draws as it's hard to flop a set, draw, or an overpair with TT. So by that same logic should we be limping / folding TT pre? Obviously not. OP is way over the top and just factually wrong about equities but some of the criticism goes too far as well in my opinion. It's tougher to play pre and post and beginners may want to stay away from it for that reason but I still don't mind looking down at KQs and coming in for a raise.