T
turtelliusshellius
Enthusiast
Silver Level
It is entirely possible to build a roll with less. Look at what chris ferguson did 3-4 years ago and turned freerolls into over 10,000 in around like 9 months. I am personally attempting to accomplish the same feat and turned a 2nd place finish in the full tilt american for $20 into $123 and then lost it all with horrible BRM cuz I put it all on a single no limit table and got flushed out on after flopping the nuts. But that is poker, so next time I get a freeroll win that big I intend on continually building it like I did at first. A good BRM rule of thumb is: never put more than 2% of your roll on a MTT, but you can buy into any dollar tourney. Never put more than 5% of your roll on a STSNG or Ring game. And always buy into a cash game for 50 BB or better. These are the main rules ferguson used and I am going to continue the trend once I win another freeroll. GL in your roll building, hope it gets big and then you give it all to me. LOL
M
moneybagz718
Enthusiast
Silver Level
jhdocholliday
Rising Star
Bronze Level
What's the poker forum protocol here?
I enjoy the posts in general, but have one issue i've noticed in enough posts now (not trying to be specific about any post, person, or thread) that I need to ask about.
Why is it that poker posters who are delving into the details of bankroll management strategy opinions as well as their own game playing histories and are usually so specific, so often say things like "I was playing 1nl"
In enough posts I have seen, even the context does not make it entirely clear, to me at least, which game you're talking about?
When only one number is specified, is that supposed to be the big blind? I see enough posts where some people are talkin cents and others are talkin dollars so even seeing 1nl in some peoples post it seems they are talkin penny games which would make their number the small blind.
While others are talkin dollars... Still is 1nl short for .50/1 or $1/2 ? What is the forum protocol here? I see a distinct lack of either decimals, symbols, or abbreviations that would make it clearer, as well as the one number format as opposed to two.
I think it's quite confusing because there is such a large number of penny players, but probably a decent number of dollar players who participate in forums.
Sorry i'm rather new to the forum, so it would help if someone clarified this for me.
Thanks!
I enjoy the posts in general, but have one issue i've noticed in enough posts now (not trying to be specific about any post, person, or thread) that I need to ask about.
Why is it that poker posters who are delving into the details of bankroll management strategy opinions as well as their own game playing histories and are usually so specific, so often say things like "I was playing 1nl"
In enough posts I have seen, even the context does not make it entirely clear, to me at least, which game you're talking about?
When only one number is specified, is that supposed to be the big blind? I see enough posts where some people are talkin cents and others are talkin dollars so even seeing 1nl in some peoples post it seems they are talkin penny games which would make their number the small blind.
While others are talkin dollars... Still is 1nl short for .50/1 or $1/2 ? What is the forum protocol here? I see a distinct lack of either decimals, symbols, or abbreviations that would make it clearer, as well as the one number format as opposed to two.
I think it's quite confusing because there is such a large number of penny players, but probably a decent number of dollar players who participate in forums.
Sorry i'm rather new to the forum, so it would help if someone clarified this for me.
Thanks!
Worak
Legend
Bronze Level
Regarding cash it's usually 100BB when you buy in for the max, so 10NL means 0.05/0.10 SB/BB, 5NL equals 0.02/0.05 and so on.
^^This is the standard here - as far as I can see.
STTs and MTTs it's the buy in of the game - 2$ equals 2$+juice (depends on site)
One number digits in cash games apply for the BB. (1nl=1$BB=100nl) but are not used very often here.
jhdocholliday
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Thanks for the reply graf. Although, if I am understanding you correctly, it would seem you are indicating the situation may be even more complicated than i originally thought. You have introduced a system i didn't even suspect, namely, that the single number preceding "nl" format might indicate the...amount of the buyin in dollars!?!...along with an assumption that this buyin correlates to a 100bb max buyin for the table in question?
That just sounds like a crazy way to talk about poker. Considering that, for one, many tables have max buyin limits that are greater than 100bb, and sometimes even lesser, and two, that many players frequently do not buy in for exactly 100bb. Which would seem important only if we start referencing our poker session in terms of the amount of dollars we bought in to the table with.
And you're suggesting that might be the standard here, as far as you can see? lol don't be offended, im just really surprised the situation, for what seems like a simple thing, is actually this confusing.
If there is some sort of system in use as you suggest, it would explain why some people are using the single number followed by nl format while others are using the two number with a slash in between format. Which is because they are using two entirely different reference methods; whereas previously i thought one was just the lazy typists shorthand.
Also in your last statement in parentheses you said "(1nl=1$BB=100nl)". After reading your post several times, I THINK I understand what you are getting at, which is perhaps that live cash games where people say 1 they mean a dollar bb whereas on this forum when people want to mean a dollar bb they would need to type 100? Still, although you are trying to help, without many more words than you've typed, surely you can see how confusing your statement is 1nl=100nl. 1=100. That's just plain not logical, mathematically or otherwise.
Of course life is not always logical, and communication has its double entendres, but if the system you suggest is in fact the standard here, then surely i am not the only one confused.
I do appreciate your help and hopefully others will weigh in with their knowledge and experience on the subject.
Worak
Legend
Bronze Level
I can see what you're pointing at.
I didn't want to further complicate things but apparently I have, lol.
Since I don't play cash too often (more MTTs here) I really could be off base anyhow.
But when I play cash I always buy in max - 100BB - I didn't even think about the possibility of others buying in for less (or more if it's deep stacked).
Afaik when you buy-in at a 10NL(0.05/0.10) table for 50bb it's still 10NL.
I'm used to the 2nl;5nl;10nl;50nl;100nl;200nl;400nl format and work with that.
Yeah you're right that's not logical.
I often hear live players talking about the 1$ tables meaning 100NL, wheras online players would usually say 0.05/0.10 or plainly 100nl - so you got what I meant.
I didn't want to further complicate things but apparently I have, lol.
Since I don't play cash too often (more MTTs here) I really could be off base anyhow.
But when I play cash I always buy in max - 100BB - I didn't even think about the possibility of others buying in for less (or more if it's deep stacked).
Afaik when you buy-in at a 10NL(0.05/0.10) table for 50bb it's still 10NL.
I'm used to the 2nl;5nl;10nl;50nl;100nl;200nl;400nl format and work with that.
Yeah you're right that's not logical.
I often hear live players talking about the 1$ tables meaning 100NL, wheras online players would usually say 0.05/0.10 or plainly 100nl - so you got what I meant.
R
RdotJdot
Visionary
Silver Level
I started with 120 on full tilt at start of this year and got about 400 now after nearly going broke in begining. I play 10nl and the CC tourneys. I haven't even played much. Only about 25 to 30000 hands in cash games. I played most of that in january. I just played cash game again for first time since jan yesterday. And the first 10000 hands I did horrible with just horrible luck. It was the worse run I ever had. I did have some nice CC cashes that helped a ton. So the CC tourneys cashes and rakeback kept me going in beginning. It still says I'm down 80 in cash games on my PT3 so haven't quite made up for first 10000 hands but with rakeback I guess I have. Now I have a nice safe br for micro stakes. It was sketchy at start but I couldn't bring myself to play less than 10nl. Another 100 dollars and I prolly give 25nl a go. So I think its definitely possible to build a nice sustainable BR with 50 or 100 but it takes some time for sure. I am hoping to be playing 50NL by end of year.
SYWTWAF
Rock Star
Silver Level
I can see why you're confused, but "x NL", where "x" refers to 100 BB, seems to be standard online notation (not just here on CC, but on any poker forum I've frequented), and an acceptable alternative to writing out the SB/BB in full (e.g. "0.01/0.02 NL"). I don't know why this is or what the history behind it is. I think this was also confusing to me when I first got into online poker, but after a while I caught on with what was meant by it, and took it for granted as established convention.
100 BB is generally the standard max buy-in of an NLHE game. If the max buy-in of a particular table is smaller or bigger than that, people usually make it clear by specifying "deep stacked" or "shallow stacked". So "100 NL Deep" would refer to an NLHE game with $0.50/$1.00 blinds that you can buy into for $200 (or perhaps upward of that).
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jhdocholliday
Rising Star
Bronze Level
When 1=100
Thanks SYW. The additional explanation has clarified this 'established convention' for me.
I'm still not a fan of it though, for the 2 reasons I already stated, that the max buyin frequently varies, as well as the actual buy-in.
And because these two factors can be actual significant components of a particular player's strategy, or lack thereof.
AND because of the real potential for misunderstanding or miscommunication due to forum newcomers like myself who didn't even imagine that people might reference poker in this way, as well as those who might think they understand the shorthand convention and misuse it. AND ESPECIALLY those who might actually be aware of the convention and still use it differently (in the instance where graf suggested that 1 could equal 100). I don't know how common it is, but I have seen posts that suggested the people typing 1nl were talking dollars whereas the convention would require that this meant that the big blind was a penny, which doesn't even exist.
When the numbers in the convention are rolling over from larger numbers back to smaller numbers, and using identical numbers with no denomination symbols, haha, that is confusing.
Anyway that's just my 2 cents on the subject.
Hopefully I will use the slash notation along with decimals or symbols so there's some clarity and i'm not a hypocrite lol
But again thanks guys for the explanations, at least I have a better idea now of what people are probably talking about.
Thanks SYW. The additional explanation has clarified this 'established convention' for me.
I'm still not a fan of it though, for the 2 reasons I already stated, that the max buyin frequently varies, as well as the actual buy-in.
And because these two factors can be actual significant components of a particular player's strategy, or lack thereof.
AND because of the real potential for misunderstanding or miscommunication due to forum newcomers like myself who didn't even imagine that people might reference poker in this way, as well as those who might think they understand the shorthand convention and misuse it. AND ESPECIALLY those who might actually be aware of the convention and still use it differently (in the instance where graf suggested that 1 could equal 100). I don't know how common it is, but I have seen posts that suggested the people typing 1nl were talking dollars whereas the convention would require that this meant that the big blind was a penny, which doesn't even exist.
When the numbers in the convention are rolling over from larger numbers back to smaller numbers, and using identical numbers with no denomination symbols, haha, that is confusing.
Anyway that's just my 2 cents on the subject.
Hopefully I will use the slash notation along with decimals or symbols so there's some clarity and i'm not a hypocrite lol
But again thanks guys for the explanations, at least I have a better idea now of what people are probably talking about.
jhdocholliday
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Mountain from a molehill
Sorry I got off subject in your thread earlier, but i needed to. This is a great question, that i'm sure many people have. And has had a lot of good responses.
One thing you might need to do for good output is add some more specifics to your question? you just say 'build a bankroll'. build it to what? i'm sure many people start with $50 to $100, and a decent number probably 'build' or increase it, but to what extent? double, triple, exponential? with what timeframe? and what other inputs, primarily TIME, with that time broken down at least into playing the game and studying the game....
as i think someone else responded, it is often more useful to measure in terms of a percentage increase than an absolute increase, but i think also pretty important to make some correlations between any results with the time input.
I have had positive results myself, having gone from 10 to 300, but am certainly no expert, as i don't think i've had sufficiently positive results to answer your question, as someone like leatherass might.
To get away from theory to something you might find more useful though, i'll add one thing.
Online, multitabling is also a real factor, and multiplier. Now of course you don't want to multiply failure, but if you can multiply success, rinse lather and repeat! Some of these guys have extremely sharp, and quick minds! I've read about guys multitabling 18-24 tables, or more; some may only be limited by the poker room's limit.
If you haven't already read the story, you might also google Bertrand "elky" grospellier, to read about his Guiness World Record for SNGs. After reading some of the news stories, i'm not clear on all the details, but i read there were 62 SNGs involved in a one hour space, with periods of at least 40 going at once. Because of the volume record being attempted, the requirement was only that he show ANY profit. But if the guy can do that making decisions that quickly, imagine what he can do, and has done, playing at a more leisurely volume, which for him might be 10-20 tables, lol.
Interestly enough, I know about him because I was a huge fan and player of the game Starcraft, from many years ago. That game was played professionally in South Korea, and was even a televised sport there. Elky was one of those professional players hailing from france, and only later transitioned to poker after already achieving gaming success at Starcraft. Starcraft tools were developed which measured a players "actions per minute" at their computer, while playing the game. This statistic was important. I remember trying my hardest to play as fast as possible, and mine might be 60, maybe 70. Most of the professionals stats were at least double with some able to achieve rates above 200, altho this rate usually wasn't prolonged but over a shorter time period. Either way, to this day, having never seen it in person, I have trouble fathoming how players could take actions at this speed. The actions are not only limited to typing because it includes clicking with the mouse, but you still only have 2 hands, if you put one on the mouse, you've only got one left to type with. On top of that the visible game area (including actionable space) was always larger than the screen, so players had to navigate where and what they were seeing as well as doing, often taking actions in multiple places nearly simultaneously.
The point is, it is partly mad skills like these that allowed Elky to achieve success gaming in poker as well.
You can imagine if you can PLAY WELL at 24 tables at once, then you will probably build your bankroll faster.
I don't know about you, but I also have trouble figuring out how guys do this. But it might be an aspect you want to explore in your quest to become the next Tom Dwan.
And if you work it out and become the next online phenom, and I helped, please remember me
Sorry I got off subject in your thread earlier, but i needed to. This is a great question, that i'm sure many people have. And has had a lot of good responses.
One thing you might need to do for good output is add some more specifics to your question? you just say 'build a bankroll'. build it to what? i'm sure many people start with $50 to $100, and a decent number probably 'build' or increase it, but to what extent? double, triple, exponential? with what timeframe? and what other inputs, primarily TIME, with that time broken down at least into playing the game and studying the game....
as i think someone else responded, it is often more useful to measure in terms of a percentage increase than an absolute increase, but i think also pretty important to make some correlations between any results with the time input.
I have had positive results myself, having gone from 10 to 300, but am certainly no expert, as i don't think i've had sufficiently positive results to answer your question, as someone like leatherass might.
To get away from theory to something you might find more useful though, i'll add one thing.
Online, multitabling is also a real factor, and multiplier. Now of course you don't want to multiply failure, but if you can multiply success, rinse lather and repeat! Some of these guys have extremely sharp, and quick minds! I've read about guys multitabling 18-24 tables, or more; some may only be limited by the poker room's limit.
If you haven't already read the story, you might also google Bertrand "elky" grospellier, to read about his Guiness World Record for SNGs. After reading some of the news stories, i'm not clear on all the details, but i read there were 62 SNGs involved in a one hour space, with periods of at least 40 going at once. Because of the volume record being attempted, the requirement was only that he show ANY profit. But if the guy can do that making decisions that quickly, imagine what he can do, and has done, playing at a more leisurely volume, which for him might be 10-20 tables, lol.
Interestly enough, I know about him because I was a huge fan and player of the game Starcraft, from many years ago. That game was played professionally in South Korea, and was even a televised sport there. Elky was one of those professional players hailing from france, and only later transitioned to poker after already achieving gaming success at Starcraft. Starcraft tools were developed which measured a players "actions per minute" at their computer, while playing the game. This statistic was important. I remember trying my hardest to play as fast as possible, and mine might be 60, maybe 70. Most of the professionals stats were at least double with some able to achieve rates above 200, altho this rate usually wasn't prolonged but over a shorter time period. Either way, to this day, having never seen it in person, I have trouble fathoming how players could take actions at this speed. The actions are not only limited to typing because it includes clicking with the mouse, but you still only have 2 hands, if you put one on the mouse, you've only got one left to type with. On top of that the visible game area (including actionable space) was always larger than the screen, so players had to navigate where and what they were seeing as well as doing, often taking actions in multiple places nearly simultaneously.
The point is, it is partly mad skills like these that allowed Elky to achieve success gaming in poker as well.
You can imagine if you can PLAY WELL at 24 tables at once, then you will probably build your bankroll faster.
I don't know about you, but I also have trouble figuring out how guys do this. But it might be an aspect you want to explore in your quest to become the next Tom Dwan.
And if you work it out and become the next online phenom, and I helped, please remember me
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Sven Deuceman
Rock Star
Silver Level
i recently started with zero and let me tell ya it has been both rewarding and annoying. i don't know why but i refuse to put any of my live bankroll online (yet). for the most part i'm just grinding it out a freerolls (gugh) and small buy in sng's
i do have a significate time to devote to it so that definately helps. not much i cand add jay except to reinforce that good br management is essential and study never hurts at all. one thing that i could also add is make sure that you bring other things into your life that can help keep your mind focused and alert (diet, meditation, reading) as theses things will help your game in unexpected ways. keep at er i'm sure i'll be reading about you or seeing you on PAD
i do have a significate time to devote to it so that definately helps. not much i cand add jay except to reinforce that good br management is essential and study never hurts at all. one thing that i could also add is make sure that you bring other things into your life that can help keep your mind focused and alert (diet, meditation, reading) as theses things will help your game in unexpected ways. keep at er i'm sure i'll be reading about you or seeing you on PAD
Sven Deuceman
Rock Star
Silver Level
..it really is hard to start from scratch. however the return in playing skill is a complete x factor. the patience and discipline this brings will help you when you flat out at a level and more so when you need to drop down. now i know we all want to make money doing this (duh it's poker) and setting yourself goals (i wanna be the next durrr) is definately needed (btw i don't that was just an example), however the key question is your commitment to the game. are you a life long poker player? do you study? do you play live as well? if you answer no to these questions then you are really just trying to get rich comfortably and that only happens to people named hilton. keep grinding and one day you will turn around and see how far you have come.
V
Verfox
Enthusiast
Silver Level
V
Verfox
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Negreanu said that you make progres if you have a schedule of 2-3 h/day of playing + lots of research and studying. So i doubt that you will find a way this way ) good luck
N
neafana
Rock Star
Silver Level
I you study, play in bankroll, be immune to bad beats)), for sure you can.
I've build twice bankrolls. Once from 100$ to 1200$ in one month, playing and study, and once from 50$ to 800$. It happened only in the moments that I was studying and playing everyday. I'm talking about SNG and MTT's.
In cash game I didn't try. The games are pretty tough these days.
I'm seeing guys that they where playing 5NL, and after 2 years playing low and medium stakes MTT's.
)), for sure you can.I've build twice bankrolls. Once from 100$ to 1200$ in one month, playing and study, and once from 50$ to 800$. It happened only in the moments that I was studying and playing everyday. I'm talking about SNG and MTT's.
In cash game I didn't try. The games are pretty tough these days.
I'm seeing guys that they where playing 5NL, and after 2 years playing low and medium stakes MTT's.
Pharaoh39
Visionary
Silver Level
Yes it's very possible. In fact there are a few poker players that are doing bankroll challenges and streaming. Check out:
https://www.youtube.com/user/killogram333/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/KarlenchoTV/videos
It can be done, you just have to put in work.
https://www.youtube.com/user/killogram333/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/KarlenchoTV/videos
It can be done, you just have to put in work.
