Daniel Negreanu On The Format of the WSOP 50K Horse

[OzExorcist]

This is an argument a lot like the Main Event final table delay, IMO. This year shows without doubt what happens when they don't televise it, and if playing NLHE at the final table is the sticking point then meh, do what ESPN says and play NLHE.

The trophy's named after Chip Reese, and he played NLHE at the final table to win the first one.

Keep in mind too, there isn't even an "OMGZ it's tradition they're ruining what was once a grand and meaningful affair" argument to be made here. It's only the fourth year they've run the tournament.

 

[orangepeeleo]

All i know is, I love D Neg b/c he's made thousands of online fish try to play 'small ball' poker and fail!

One of the best feelings in poker for me right now is calling a min-raise IP with sc's & flopping a huge draw, villain min-bets/min-raises me all the way to the river where i hit said draw, i get called a fish b/c i drew out getting correct odds all the way, rinse and repeat, thank you daniel, you may have small ball down to an art form but millions of people who copy you do not

 

[orangepeeleo]

And yeah, horse at the FT table definetly, i don't agree with him there at all, sounds to me like he's bitter that one of the events that he is good at has had the fish pool lessened, which is understandable, every player wants a bigger edge, but not a reason to change it to HE at the ft imo.

 

[zachvac]

All i know is, I love D Neg b/c he's made thousands of online fish try to play 'small ball' poker and fail!

One of the best feelings in poker for me right now is calling a min-raise IP with sc's & flopping a huge draw, villain min-bets/min-raises me all the way to the river where i hit said draw, i get called a fish b/c i drew out getting correct odds all the way, rinse and repeat, thank you daniel, you may have small ball down to an art form but millions of people who copy you do not

99% of people who use the term "small ball" (especially on this forum) have no idea wtf they're talking about and are completely misapplying the concept and using it as an excuse to be a weak/tight calling station.

 

[Jack Daniels]

its a horse event, horse at ft imo

^^^^ That.

The prestige of winning this event is still the prestige of winning this event whether it's on television or not. And if any of them say it is less prestigious because it isn't televised, then they are wrong and contrary to Daniel it would in fact be all about being on television. So it's either prestigious or it's about being on televsion.

Did you read what he said? Of course they could play if they wanted to, but they won't because its not +EV for them without sponsorship.

Um, yeah, that's exactly what makes it a crock. They know they aren't likely good enough to front that money and win, but they'll gladly take a ride on someone else's dime. Well DUH. Someone would have to be a complete moron to refuse to play when someone else is going to pay for them and they get to keep their winnings. That's not rocket science. Get someone to pay for me and I'll play, but I won't plunk down $50K either.

His point seems to have only to do with his ability to make money on the event. If it's televised, he may get his entry paid for, the competition will be weaker, and the prize pool will be bigger.

This is 100% true. I like Daniel and enjoy watching him play, but this post is one big whine imo. Basically as highlighted in reducto's post, Daniels blog entry could simply have been, "I'm upset with how the HORSE event is run. I would much happier if they'd arrange it so that I can play for free against weak opponents to leverage my skills to make more money out of a huge prize pool. kthxbai. /blog"

Of course it's about the money, it's a 50k event. Why not just make it a freeroll?

These sponsored players would never consider putting up $50,000 to play in the event, but if their sponsors are willing to back them, they'll absolutely give it a go.

Well a freeroll is pretty much what Daniel is saying too at least in terms of him and his pro buddies. In his eyes everything possible should be done to make it possible for him and the other pros to freeroll in this.

Also wouldn't this variation of HORSE require more skill because now you need to know 6 games?

I could support this if, and only if, they changed the format from five games to six games. Rename it to HORSEN and the "N" can be one level of NLHE that rotates through. Otherwise it's still a five game event with a new one thrown in on the end so pros can play for free on TV.

I mean one of the letters in HORSE is H and that stands for Hold 'em.

The H in HORSE is for "Limit Holdem" just like the E is for "Limit Stud Eight" But since all the games are limit they decided using just the first letters would make L.L.L.L.L. too hard to pronounce.

99% of people who use the term "small ball" (especially on this forum) have no idea wtf they're talking about and are completely misapplying the concept and using it as an excuse to be a weak/tight calling station.

So we should expect a new article coming soon explaining the intracacies of both small ball poker as well as the details of why all the noobs and experienced players here are doing it wrong?

 

[pantin007]

ok, how about in the main event ft, we play badugi

does that make sense?

 

[Jack Daniels]

ok, how about in the main event ft, we play badugi

does that make sense?

Yes, as long as Daniel and his buddies get to play on TV for free.

 

[Irexes]

The 50k event was created so that the pros had an event they could refer to as the "real ME" once the actual ME got so big it was extremely unlikely any particular individual would win it.

It's HORSE so that it stops the "casual" rich player or sattellites from pokersites ballooning the field there as well (I'm sure if it was a 50k nl event it would be quadruple the size).

Trouble is the field is now too small and TV's not interested. Can't have their cake and eat it.

 

[pantin007]

obv they need to make it an 8 game event

 

[OzExorcist]

Trouble is the field is now too small and TV's not interested. Can't have their cake and eat it.

Apparently they can - they've just gotta play NLHE at the final table.

The event would still carry all the other benefits for the pros you mentioned above and ESPN would have them back in a heartbeat. Especially next year when they won't have the $40K championship competing for TV time.

What I wonder is just how much Daniel is exaggerating saying only five people were concerned about whether the final table was HORSE or NLHE. Polling all this year's entrants would be interesting.

One other way to put this. What would people prefer if it came down to:

1. A $50K HORSE event where they play NLHE at the final table, or
2. No event at all?

 

[pantin007]

u cannot call it a horse event if ur playing nlhe in the most crucial stages of the tourny

 

[OzExorcist]

*shrugs*

They did the first year. Is that really all people are worried about - the name? What if they called it the $50K high-stakes championship instead?

 

[pantin007]

*shrugs*

They did the first year. Is that really all people are worried about - the name? What if they called it the $50K high-stakes championship instead?

it just doesnt make sense, to play 1 game and then play another at the ft

 

[zachvac]

So we should expect a new article coming soon explaining the intracacies of both small ball poker as well as the details of why all the noobs and experienced players here are doing it wrong?

ok sorry maybe that came off wrong. I never said people were "doing" it wrong at all. But I've seen so many times people post here about how they only called because they were playing small ball and don't want to put money in preflop. The point of small ball as I understand it is winning a lot of small pots and building an aggressive image so that people will pay you off in big pots mistakenly thinking that means later in the hand you go crazy too. Anyway the point is you raise a lot preflop when the betting rounds are cheap.

Yet almost all the posts I see anywhere are about how they didn't want to put too much money in with AK because they were playing small ball or they just limped because they were playing small ball. It's just an excuse people use to not play aggressively when really the entire point of small ball is aggressive play preflop. I'm not commenting on how people are doing it or their play at all. Most people that actually do it probably don't even refer to it as small ball. I'm just commenting about the times I see it used here in the strategy section. See Orange's post to what people seem to think it means. Small ball doesn't mean not risking your stack preflop, it means risking small amounts of chips a ton of the time preflop and stealing a ton to take the blinds and build an aggressive image to exploit later. It's not like it's some super-complex system but it does mean being aggressive preflop when most of the times I see it be it this forum or any other forum/person they think small ball means playing passively preflop because they haven't seen the flop yet.

Anyway this is kind of off topic so I'll let it go for now. Sorry if I offended anyone but search for the term small ball and I'm pretty sure I'm right here.

 

[zachvac]

it just doesnt make sense, to play 5 games and then play a different variation of one of the 5 at the ft

FYP

 

[OzExorcist]

it just doesnt make sense, to play 1 game and then play another at the ft

Even if they change the name so it doesn't say HORSE?

As long as everyone knows going in what the structure is going to be, I really don't see the problem with it. It's tournament poker, it doesn't have to make sense.

 

[Jack Daniels]

Even if they change the name so it doesn't say HORSE?

As long as everyone knows going in what the structure is going to be, I really don't see the problem with it.

If they want to change the name of it and call it something else where the structure is HORSE until the final table then NLHE at the FT, then that would be fine and perfectly reasonable. But calling it a HORSE event and only playing HORSE until switching to NLHE at the final table isn't accurate. There is no other event in the wsop that pulls a tactic like that that I know of. Every other event begins and ends with the game it is named for. In fact, in a vague way it's actually insulting to non-pros to do what they are doing with the HORSE event. By doing this they are actually saying that they're building a structure (called HORSE in this case) intentionally so that most amateurs won't play then when we get to the FT we'll switch to the game that we were afraid to play against them to start with.


But even so, it doesn't change the fact that the only reason Daniel wants it to be NLHE at the FT is so it will be televised and he can play for free along with the other sponsored folks.

 

[wachinpntdry]

its a horse event, horse at ft imo

Love Daniel, disagree with his assessment here.

Its HORSE, it isn't a game for specialists, its poker in general at its most competitive event.

Daniels idea makes everything up to the Final Table little more than a satellite tourney. While I'd like to watch the HORSE tourney, unedited, because I know that with hole cams I can understand what's going on, I don't have to watch the game, and TV just isn't a good enough reason to pervert the game so that masses of asses can think its a gas.

HORSE ... is 5 limit stakes games. How can someone say they won a HORSE tourney by playing a 6th game of nlhe?

Eight innings of baseball and the game winner decided on a sudden death football field.

If it's about sponsorships ... then it's about MONEY ... not poker.

If it's about TV ratings ... then it's about MONEY ... not poker.

If it's about TV exposure for players ... then it's about MONEY ... not poker.

+1 to the above......


limit doesn't play so well on TV .......no TV means fewer sponsored players (of lesser skills) in the event.....to me what he's really saying is he's nnot happy cause the prizepool is smaller and there's less "fish" in the tourny.....

"if they listened to me the event would be better for me" is what he's saying.....


so without TV you end up with a smaller field of only the strongest POKER players.... isn't that precisely the type of event a "world class player" would want to win ...one that showcases his skills against the best the world has to offer ?


sounds like Daniel is doing a bit of whining to me....
whining cause something isnt exactly how he likes it.....
whining cause he figures this format is keeping some easy pickens out of the tourny......
whining cause the format isn't what he believes gives him better odds and more money (kinda like the whining some pro athletes and hollywood types do IMO)




HORSE is HORSE......

never heard of HORSENLHE before....

maybe make it NL HORSE at the final table ? (NL stud sounds like a brilliant idea )

maybe all the events at the WSOP should be NLHE at the final table ?.....

or just go ahead and make all the events NLHE start to finish ? ....

Superbowl gets higher ratings than the World Series......maybe in the ninth inning they should allow tackling base runners or sacking the pitcher ?

 

[nevadanick]

+1 to the above......

<snipped>...

Superbowl gets higher ratings than the World Series......maybe in the ninth inning they should allow tackling base runners or sacking the pitcher ?

[X] Funniest comment of the thread ... visions of this are definitely WORTHY OF BEING TELEVISED ...

Have to agree with JD and the others who have concluded that Daniel's complaint stems mainly from not being able to be sponsored into a $50k premier event like a freeroll. Poor Daniel ...

 

[OzExorcist]

FWIW, I don't really think it's fair to single Negreanu out with the "he just wants to play in a $50K freeroll" criticism.

It's almost certainly true, but then it'd be true for pretty much anyone looking to play in the event. So let's not pretend he's the only one complaining about this - he's just the only one to do it in a public forum.

What people seem to be ignoring too is that if the pros (like Negreanu) don't get some kind of edge or incentive to play the tournament really will die. Which is what I was getting at before and nobody really answered - would you prefer there be a $50K HORSE event where they play NLHE at the final table, or no $50K HORSE event at all? Maybe I'm exaggerating, but it could come to that.

It's all well and good to say it should be a player's championship where the best of the best play and if lesser-skilled players can't afford to buy in without sponsorship then too bad. But every game, cash or tournament, needs to fish to feed on.

A lot of the players who enter the $50K HORSE also play in Bobby's Room, and they've been complaining for a few years that the fish have been drying up and their games haven't been running. The $50K HORSE will go the same way if it only ends up being top-tier pros that can afford to play it.

 

[wachinpntdry]

Have to agree with JD and the others who have concluded that Daniel's complaint stems mainly from not being able to be sponsored into a $50k premier event like a freeroll. Poor Daniel ...

awww... must be rough having to put up your own money to play

What people seem to be ignoring too is that if the pros (like Negreanu) don't get some kind of edge or incentive to play .........

-thier edge is their skills and abilities.......
-their incentive is to beat the best in the world and take home a bracelet and gobs of cash.....(and without having to wade through a 5 or 6000 player mine field where luck is as big a factor as skill)



as far as it being televised or not....sure I'd like to see it on TV, but changing the game solely to get it on TV so as to accomodate some spoiled players with free entries is a step in the wrong direction IMO.....if not enough players are willing to pay the entry and the event dies... then that's what it deserved

next thing, they'll want appearance fees to show up at tournies......then it's private lounges with 100 bottles of Fiji water, 10lbs of M&Ms with all the red ones picked out, and exactly 67 [insert some extremely rare and expensive thing here] ...ect, ect, ect........then one year you'll notice they seem to be running twice as many commercials as in previous years because all the top players demanded a piece of the TV revenues



if they believe that having to pay to play is -EV for them and won't play without it being a freeroll...then they must believe they're not good enough to play......otherwise, I say put your money where your mouth(or ego) is

fact is, he wanted to change a game for no reason other than the change would give him a free ride..... he wasn't lobbying for the change "for the good of the game" or any other such noble idea......it all came directly from greed (and possibly feelings of self-importance)






.

 

[Jack Daniels]

I was starting to go into a bunch of piece-parting of Oz's last post, but then as I was I realized that the post below mostly sums up my thoughts anyway. So thanks WPD for doing all the typing for me.

awww... must be rough having to put up your own money to play

-thier edge is their skills and abilities.......
-their incentive is to beat the best in the world and take home a bracelet and gobs of cash.....(and without having to wade through a 5 or 6000 player mine field where luck is as big a factor as skill)

as far as it being televised or not....sure I'd like to see it on TV, but changing the game solely to get it on TV so as to accomodate some spoiled players with free entries is a step in the wrong direction IMO.....if not enough players are willing to pay the entry and the event dies... then that's what it deserved

next thing, they'll want appearance fees to show up at tournies......then it's private lounges with 100 bottles of Fiji water, 10lbs of M&Ms with all the red ones picked out, and exactly 67 [insert some extremely rare and expensive thing here] ...ect, ect, ect........then one year you'll notice they seem to be running twice as many commercials as in previous years because all the top players demanded a piece of the TV revenues

if they believe that having to pay to play is -EV for them and won't play without it being a freeroll...then they must believe they're not good enough to play......otherwise, I say put your money where your mouth(or ego) is

fact is, he wanted to change a game for no reason other than the change would give him a free ride..... he wasn't lobbying for the change "for the good of the game" or any other such noble idea......it all came directly from greed (and possibly feelings of self-importance)

Of course I wouldn't be me if I didn't note a couple things.

Which is what I was getting at before and nobody really answered - would you prefer there be a $50K HORSE event where they play NLHE at the final table, or no $50K HORSE event at all? Maybe I'm exaggerating, but it could come to that.

Your poll is flawed because it doesn't include the other perfectly reasonable option of actually playing HORSE for the duration of the event. If you're simply going to include the choices you want to try to make a point, then the results are worthless. Here, take my poll too...

Yes or No...Do you feel guilty when you kill homeless people and sell their stuff to buy crack-cocaine?

It's all well and good to say it should be a player's championship where the best of the best play and if lesser-skilled players can't afford to buy in without sponsorship then too bad.

This is exactly what the organizers did beginning with the first year 50k HORSE was played. One of the points of creating the event at $50k is because all the pros that bitched about so many people playing the ME. They wanted something more exclusive. Now they got what they want but are complaining about having to pay to play in it. LOL.

The $50K HORSE will go the same way if it only ends up being top-tier pros that can afford to play it.

If it goes away for the reasons we've been discussing, then it's a worthless event to begin with and should be killed. An event should be able to stand on its own merit, not whether there are enough corporate sponsors to pay entries for the "entitled" while the everyday player gets to fork over his entry fee.

 

[zachvac]

Before I read this thread I agreed with DN. Now I don't. Good debating skills JD.

That said though the bigger question in my mind is will the fish that don't mind dropping 50k to play in the biggest WSOP event care that they won't be on TV? If that's the case I shift back to supporting DN's side because if fish can't buy in then the only reason anyone would play is if they felt they had an edge and it's pretty obvious that eventually as the worst drop out each year the field is thinned more and more until it's just the best HORSE player in the world along with Phil Hellmuth who just won't realize how much of a disadvantage he's at.

 

[Crystal Blue]

DN was at pains to get across the fact that he is so passionate about this event, and how prestigious it is/was and should be. Those were his own words and more or less how he started off his blog post. He should of stopped there really because a lot of what else he said came across differently.

I just read all the posts in this thread and noticed nobody had mentioned the reasons for the events introduction in the first place. That is until JD correctly pointed it out a few posts back. I'm not sure, but I have images in my head from several years back ( perhaps 4 years ) where I see DN on my monitor singing the praises about this brand new big boys event being introduced to the WSOP and how it was going to bring back the prestige needed. I could be wrong of course but my memory farm indicates that there is most likely an old youtube interview about it somewhere.

Anyway, if it wasn't a video clip then it was a written interview or some such thing. The point is, and from what I recall, the $50K H.O.R.S.E. event was introduced to counter-act the monstrous mine field of nobodies and everybody's that entered the ME. The general consensus was that an event was needed that would "price out" Joe Blow and his satty friends so that the very best could show case their skills in a more meaningful and prestigious event.

Fanboys, fish, luckboxes, online satty qualifiers and the likes were overwhelming the ME and pros such as DN wanted an event where this wasn't the case. That's fair enough I suppose but even at the time I felt it was a bit of the "them and us" mentality. Even so, if that's what they wanted to do then fine by me.

Obviously when it was set up and introduced, everything was in place to suit those who were going to play in it. By that, I mean they had TV coverage sorted out, sponsorship deals sorted out and buy-ins sorted out. Happy happy days, free-rolling their way in and potentially a very juicy prize pool to go with it.

Perfect really for the big boys and equally so for the viewer. It all fell into place nicely and a lot of back slapping would of taken place I'm sure. I question some of the motives for the introduction of this event though. I am of the feeling that it's design had more to do with personal gain for a certain band of players than the importance of poker prestige and integrity.

Don't get me wrong, if there is money out there to be gained, by all means take advantage of it. My concerns are more to do with the true reasons for the events introduction. If indeed it was all about the more successful pros show casing their skills and prestige etc and to avoid the somewhat luckfest that is the ME, then surely those players pushing through it's introduction should have came out and said .................. "This event will be unique, unique in the sense that no player taking part will gain entry by means of sponsorship. Each player will pony up their own $50K because we want this event to be a true red blooded poker party for men and women who are prepared to put their money where their mouth is. We want to show case our skills while showing the public we mean business"

Yeah I know that sounds more like fantasy land than anything else. But it sounds good to me if original concerns were about the way the ME was losing its prestige and worthiness. What DN said made a lot of sense for anyone that thinks mainly about themselves and maybe their close buddies and what they can personally gain from the situation. But almost everything he said contradicts the supposed reasons for the events introduction in the first place.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Personaly I agree with DN, the TV aspect is important for the game's overall publicity.

Besides, a HORSE champion is seen as a superior player because he has to be profitable at various forms of poker, adding a NLHE final table,, just means he has to be a master of NLHE too.