Daniel Negreanu On The Format of the WSOP 50K Horse

[Gr3atness]

In year one, the event was perfectly designed for television. To get to the final table, you couldn't be an amateur really, you'd have to play all the games well for the most part. That's good, because it guaranteed big name players at the end. That's good for television.
What's not good for television is ANY form of poker outside of no limit hold'em. It doesn't work and the ratings emphatically show that. This is the reason it was so important to satisfy all involved by switching the game to no limit hold'em at the final table. That way, in order to win this special event, not only will you have to have great limit skills, but you also have to be good at the "Cadillac of Poker" no limit hold'em. It was perfect. Absolutely the perfect made for television event that would feature top pros, exciting poker at the final table, and most importantly, great ratings.

Well technically the event was created with NLHE at the ft, so that is the original format. Making it HORSE all the way through was the change. And if a change doesn't improve something, put it back to the way it was, imo.

Its not a 40 years old tournament that they suddenly changed for the TV era, its a new tournament created for the TV era.

 

[StormRaven]

I understand Daniel's pov to an extent. If they want HORSE to become popular again and he really wants to do what is in the best interest of the game then maybe they would be better off holding some smaller buy in events that are televised and have a little thing where they explain the game before they start so joe q public gets educated on it. If the smaller buy in events draws a larger crowd and becomes popular then so to will the 50K event draw a larger crowd and public viewing.

I understand completely wanting to get the game more popular and tv is certainly the way to go here. I love Daniel and respect him. At the same time I do see how his blog looks a bit whiney. The pros can afford to pay for their own buy in and seem to be a bit pampered refusing to play because they have to pay for it themselves. On that issue I have no sympathy.

 

[OzExorcist]

OMG long post follows. Cliff notes:

- ESPN either gets what it wants, which is a NLHE final table, or it doesn't televise the event

- Without television, the event likely curls up and dies within a few years and that would be a massive shame

I dunno about that. I'm pretty sure I watched 2 limit FT's on ESPN last year and they were both good viewing. Especially because the blinds are so high by that stage that the players are having to commit large percentages of their stack to reach a showdown with many tough decisons on the last two streets to call off those big bets.

Another alternative I haven't seen mentioned would be to maybe make the games rotate every orbit rather than every couple of hours? (would have to have lower blind increments). How would you feel about that? I think the only issue TV really has is not getting stuck on Razz or Stud H/L for the final sitting.

They showed two events that had some LHE content from the 2008 series - the $5K mixed hold 'em and the $50K HORSE. Same in 2007. I don't believe they showed any LHE in 2006 (even in a mixed game format) so you've gotta go back to 2005 to find the last time they aired a straight LHE event.

There's no LHE scheduled for this year, FWIW.

As for changing games every round of the button, that's already what they do: http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/tourney/structsheet_7274.asp?tourneyid=7274&groupid=607

Even if that weren't the case though, I still don't think it would help because in a mixed-game format, to a large extent you don't get a choice in the hands you show. They're forced to show elimination hands, and there's an 80% chance that the game someone gets eliminated in won't be LHE. And as we've discussed, even if by some fluke they managed to only show LHE hands, ESPN obviously feel LHE is too dull for television anyway given their moves over the past few years.

Which really brings this back to the main issue here:

- ESPN has pretty much all the power here. No ESPN = no incentive for the fish to play = without some other incentive to keep it going the event probably dies within a few years.

- ESPN wants the final table to be NLHE.

ESPN have stated very clearly what the need to be able to televise the event. Quite simply, proposing anything else is pointless.

I understand Daniel's pov to an extent. If they want HORSE to become popular again and he really wants to do what is in the best interest of the game then maybe they would be better off holding some smaller buy in events that are televised and have a little thing where they explain the game before they start so joe q public gets educated on it. If the smaller buy in events draws a larger crowd and becomes popular then so to will the 50K event draw a larger crowd and public viewing.

I understand completely wanting to get the game more popular and tv is certainly the way to go here. I love Daniel and respect him. At the same time I do see how his blog looks a bit whiney. The pros can afford to pay for their own buy in and seem to be a bit pampered refusing to play because they have to pay for it themselves. On that issue I have no sympathy.

Negreanu isn't doing this because he wants HORSE to become popular. He's doing this because this tournament is supposed to be one of the most prestigious in the wsop lineup - the professional's championship, now that the Main Event is a crapshoot.

Make no mistake, this is about exposure for the highest buy-in tournament the WSOP has and for the players in it. It's not about making HORSE more popular.

And I've said it before, but I don't really think having to pay his own buy-in is what Negreanu is really complaining about here. What he's complaining about is what I mentioned above: without ESPN and without the sponsored fish they bring this event will either die or become irrelevant within a copule of years. The pros (including Negreanu, AFAIK) had to fight hard to get Harrah's to run the event in the first place.

On your other point, they do hold lower buy in HORSE tournaments. ESPN is interested in ratings and making money though - they're a business, and they couldn't care less about "educating joe q public" on how to play HORSE. If a $50K buy in event with a multi-million dollar prize pool and a stacked final table won't rate, there's pretty much no chance a $1500 final table full of nobodies playing for a few hundred grand will.

 

[StormRaven]

OMG long post follows. Cliff notes:

- ESPN either gets what it wants, which is a NLHE final table, or it doesn't televise the event

- Without television, the event likely curls up and dies within a few years and that would be a massive shame



They showed two events that had some LHE content from the 2008 series - the $5K mixed hold 'em and the $50K HORSE. Same in 2007. I don't believe they showed any LHE in 2006 (even in a mixed game format) so you've gotta go back to 2005 to find the last time they aired a straight LHE event.

There's no LHE scheduled for this year, FWIW.

As for changing games every round of the button, that's already what they do: http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/tourney/structsheet_7274.asp?tourneyid=7274&groupid=607

Even if that weren't the case though, I still don't think it would help because in a mixed-game format, to a large extent you don't get a choice in the hands you show. They're forced to show elimination hands, and there's an 80% chance that the game someone gets eliminated in won't be LHE. And as we've discussed, even if by some fluke they managed to only show LHE hands, ESPN obviously feel LHE is too dull for television anyway given their moves over the past few years.

Which really brings this back to the main issue here:

- ESPN has pretty much all the power here. No ESPN = no incentive for the fish to play = without some other incentive to keep it going the event probably dies within a few years.

- ESPN wants the final table to be NLHE.

ESPN have stated very clearly what the need to be able to televise the event. Quite simply, proposing anything else is pointless.



Negreanu isn't doing this because he wants HORSE to become popular. He's doing this because this tournament is supposed to be one of the most prestigious in the WSOP lineup - the professional's championship, now that the Main Event is a crapshoot.

Make no mistake, this is about exposure for the highest buy-in tournament the WSOP has and for the players in it. It's not about making HORSE more popular.

And I've said it before, but I don't really think having to pay his own buy-in is what Negreanu is really complaining about here. What he's complaining about is what I mentioned above: without ESPN and without the sponsored fish they bring this event will either die or become irrelevant within a copule of years. The pros (including Negreanu, AFAIK) had to fight hard to get Harrah's to run the event in the first place.

On your other point, they do hold lower buy in HORSE tournaments. ESPN is interested in ratings and making money though - they're a business, and they couldn't care less about "educating joe q public" on how to play HORSE. If a $50K buy in event with a multi-million dollar prize pool and a stacked final table won't rate, there's pretty much no chance a $1500 final table full of nobodies playing for a few hundred grand will.

You're probably right, and that is sad. I agree that a HORSE event should finish with only HORSE play at the final table. But how is it going to become popular if they can't or won't educate or sensationalize the HORSE platform? There was a time when Texas Hold 'Em wasn't very popular with the general public, now it is. If this can happen, I believe the right form of advertising, sensationalizing or whatever can bring better popularity to the game of HORSE as well. How is HORSE going to get more exposure without popularity? Doesn't HORSE need some form of popularity in order to get joe q public to watch, so Pepsi and others have a sizable enough audience to advertise their products to? How else will ESPN make money without the advertisers who need the public and the public won't watch it unless it is entertaining enough? It just seems to me that all these items/issues go hand in hand.

Yes, ESPN does have all the power and Daniel is right in his assessment of needing nhle to be played at the final table for it to be televised right now. But what about the game's integrity for future years? People paid big money to play HORSE, not NLHE.

Maybe if enough pros all got together and decided to pay their own way, even without the support of ESPN, then ESPN might take notice. If the pros did the opposite of a strike, instead of stop playing because ESPN won't air it one year, get them together in masses, they could double the number of entrants with just themselves and urging wealthy friends to play or having the wealthy friends sponsor good HORSE players (whether they find them online or in Vegas, w/e). If they do this, double the entrants, then they are doing what is in the best interest of the game and maybe ESPN or another network will take notice and air it.

So maybe 1 year they have to foot the bill themselves (and yes, right now because of the lack them doing this I view them as being too pampered to pay for it out of pocket), but if they work together on this, at least try, then maybe they can have a final table of HORSE that is televised for future years. They sacrifice 1 year, 1 buy-in for the future of the game and their prestige and their exposure. I know they want exposure, it's best for them, their bottom dollar, best for ESPN's bottom dollar and best for the game. But again, I ask, how do they keep the integrity of a HORSE game by being able to play HORSE at the ft and get their exposure without increasing the number of entrants and the popularity of the game (or at least it's entertainment value) without viewers who want to watch?

 

[OzExorcist]

The thing is, ESPN has tried to educate Joe Q Public about HORSE and promote the $50K event as the professional's championship that decides who the best of the best is. They've shown the final table for the past two years in its unadulterated HORSE format, they've explained all the games as they've gone and they've had stacked final tables with huge prize pools. I really don't think there's much more* they could have done to promote the game.

And yet by all accounts it's still been a massive disaster for them. Showing HORSE has been ratings suicide, the audiences have stayed away in droves.

One of the most basic rules of business is that the customer is always right. Joe Q Public, the customer, has told ESPN in no uncertain terms that what he wants to watch is NLHE, then more NLHE, followed by a little more NLHE and to hell with Stud8, Razz and all those other weird games.

ESPN won't take any notice of what the pros think, even if they did all get together and double the number of entrants in the $50K HORSE (we'd still be talking well under 500 entrants, BTW) because professional poker players aren't ESPN's customers.

As long as there are loads of NLHE tournaments for them to show (and there are - ESPN is showing nothing but this year) I don't think we'll see HORSE on our TV screens again any time soon. Joe Q Public knows what he likes and ESPN has plenty of it to give to him.

Maybe at some point in the distant future the public will change its mind or develop a taste for HORSE. But for the forseeable future it's unlikely and ESPN has already done all that's practical to promote the game. The $50K HORSE event needs to either accept this, change its final table to NLHE (and probably change its name as well - which is probably the best compromise IMO) or accept the consequences of not being televised.


* within the realms of practicality, remembering that poker in general is a very small part of ESPN's overall programming and that the Main Event will always take precedence for them. It's simply not practical for them to, say, air a series of programs just explaining how HORSE works.