Bankroll, going pro, and 8 weeks of poker

kadafi

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I'd think you'd need between 10k-100k to go pro.


I dont think thats true at all. I mean it would surely help but depending on what levels you want to play you could go pro with as little as 200-300. I mean you would want to have a few weeks rent saved up and some food money 2 (for rough times that may come) so maybe 2-3k is a better estimate.
 
N.D.

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Prices vary from region to region. 2k in one region won't cut it for a month in a different region.

As I recall Phil Gordon started with 400k...

Hey isn't there a "So You Wanna Be A Pro" sticky around here anywhere?...

Realistically, a college kid doesn't have 400k just sitting around so...

What's wrong with having pro be the long term pro and starting out semi-pro? I'm probably just paraphrasing something Zach said, but what's wrong with it?
 
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Dayne G.

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GOING PRO IS SIMPLE... VERY, VERY SIMPLE!!!

Quit your job, quit your school, and play- simple. Anyone can "turn pro."

WINNING??? Now that's not so simple.
 
zachvac

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GOING PRO IS SIMPLE... VERY, VERY SIMPLE!!!

Quit your job, quit your school, and play- simple. Anyone can "turn pro."

WINNING??? Now that's not so simple.

ok, now honestly is this supposed to help? At best this is a semantics argument and I'm pretty sure even that is wrong. Being a pro means deriving your primary income from it, so someone playing poker and not winning really can't be called a pro unless he plans on living on the streets. The OP wants to be able to afford a place to live, food, clothing, etc. with money won from poker. Is that better?
 
H

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I did not care to read all of your post (not a big reader of forums). If you want it that bad strive to learn and achieve.

all i can tell you is that i did infact put in 100$ into full tilt and 16 hrs later had 4500$ it is possible, i achieved that with luck and being on the right tables at the right time.

so I am just tossing that out there. it is possible good luck to you friend.

jonathan


( It also helped i think i was heads up [on a 9seat table] with a drunk guy took 1.3k from him)

I have decided to head back to school to get a BS in Nursing.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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While I don't doubt you've read everything you've said you have read, I don't think you've taken all of it in.

First let me c/p some appropriate blog ramblings:

Dorkus Malorkus said:
To meander a little, much like any other casual poker player I have harboured dreams of turning pro. I still recall with amusement me thinking about how I could easily just open up a dozen tables of $50NL and happily grind away. I had only very limited liabilities at the time (I still lived at home with the parents until about six months ago), so I would always figure I had nothing to lose in giving it a shot. I often mulled over taking a week's holiday from work and doing a 'trial run', but I always ended up talking myself out of it.

On reflection, how wise I was.

Poker is a soul-destroying game. When one turns pro, (s)he crosses the line between poker being 'fun' and being 'a job'. I, like most casual players, play poker mainly because I enjoy it. I enjoy the learning process, and applying the learning process in actual gameplay. If someone came up to me and absolutely guaranteed that I would make $0 in profit over the rest of my poker playing career (but not make any losses), I would still play every now and then. I believe that's the question you need to ask yourself if you're unsure exactly why you play poker.

The great thing about having a 'normal' job is I have a boss. Sure, it may not seem great when I'm getting yelled at for doing something wrong or making long-winded blog posts when I should be working, but ultimately it's great for me because I have someone to answer to. A professional poker player has nobody to answer to but themselves. While on the surface this sounds wonderful, unless you are very, very commited and are capable of very high levels of self-control, you will end up lagging behind in your poker playing 'duties'. When you play less, the downswings hurt more, you have less working capital available, you tilt, you lose more money because of said tilt, and eventually you end up having to either go back to your old boss with cap in hand and say "oops" or look for another job.

I don't have the level of discipline required for the above to not apply. I don't believe that that level of discipline can be taught, so I'm somewhat stuck. If I don't want to play poker, I don't have to. I like that luxury.

Anyway, the moral of the story is don't be too hasty in 'turning pro'. The ability to distinguish fantasy from reality is a key characteristic of those of sane mind. It's okay to occasionally daydream about winning the WSOP, or even daydream of 12-tabling $50NL for 8 hours a day if you're particularly sad, but don't cross the line without due care and attention.

Second, let me address some of the points you've raised.

Sohmurr said:
I also have $4 on Full Tilt and expect to have more by June 27 when I'll have played in 4 more WSOP Fantasy Freerolls.

Never 'expect' anything in poker. You will more likely than not be let down. It's okay to be confident, and I don't know how these freerolls pay, but don't 'expect' anything from them - unless they pay a lot of the field it is more likely (no matter how good a player you are) that you will cash in none of them than it is you will cash in one or more.

Sohmurr said:
The short version, as I said above, is that playing professional poker is about all I can think about. Is it the glory? Probably not. Is it the money? Partially yes. Is it the freedom? Yes. More than anything, this is probably the reason.

Freedom? As you set out, with your BR and the limits you will be playing (even allowing for a year to casually 'build up' a BR), to make any sort of a decent wage you will have to grind out an unholy number of hours a day. Yes, you can take your own breaks and holidays, but don't let this fool you into some illusion that you are 'free'. When you take a break, you are losing money (assuming you are a winning player). If I want a week in Spain, I can take a week's paid holiday - if you want a week in Spain it will cost you a week's 'wage'. Aside from what I said above, another great thing about having a normal job is that every now and then I can turn up, do a half-assed job (for whatever reason), and still get paid for a day's work. You obviously can't do this with poker - if you don't play you don't get any money, and if you play half-assedly you will leak money at the tables. In that sense, poker gives you much less 'freedom' than a normal job.

You wouldn't be as socially 'free' as you think either. Prime time for poker players is prime time for socialising. Most bad players show up on the weekends and in the evenings (and especially on weekend evenings). If your friends want to go out on Saturday night, you either have to forego the juiciest night of poker in the week and most likely most of the following day for 'recovery', or you will have to brush them off. If I want to go out on a Saturday night I can, because I don't work on Sundays (but even if I did the 'half-assed' rule above could well apply).

Sohmurr said:
Lastly, I have about $250. I was thinking of maybe taking some of it down to the super soft $2/$2 and $2/$4 LHE games at my local card room a couple times a week and working up that way. Yes, this is again not a full BR. But I've gone in with only $40 5 or 6 times before and come ahead ~$20-$40 in all. It would also earn more than trying to take it online.

As someone said, variance will bite you in the arse if you continue to think like this. Okay so 5 or 6 times you've profited a small amount. Here's the good news - some days you will go on a huge heater and win three times that. As for the bad news - you will have losing days. Through no fault of your own you could easily leak a fifth of that roll in one day playing the limits you do through no fault of your own. If you're prone to tilt, then it will get worse.

As you move up in the future, your $40 losing days will become $400 losing days. Can you handle that? I know it's all relative to your total bankroll if you follow proper BRM, but losing hundreds or thousands of dollars through no fault of your own is soul-crushing, and losing it when the majority of it is your fault is even worse.

I don't mean to put you off. You have a dream and are intent on pursuing it which is good. I stumbled into the job I'm in at the moment purely by chance as I had no idea what I wanted to do with myself, so you are better than me in that respect. All I am saying is to expect to fail, as over 90% of people who try this sort of thing will (and many of that 90% will have had much more experience than your ~10k online hands and half a dozen live sessions).

Good luck.

Dayne G. said:
GOING PRO IS SIMPLE... VERY, VERY SIMPLE!!!

Quit your job, quit your school, and play- simple. Anyone can "turn pro."

WINNING??? Now that's not so simple.

Dude you appear to be a cliché generator. A malfunctioning cliché generator. WPT will no doubt be in touch offering you a commentary position soon.
 
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KyleJRM

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I did not care to read all of your post (not a big reader of forums). If you want it that bad strive to learn and achieve.

all i can tell you is that i did infact put in 100$ into full tilt and 16 hrs later had 4500$ it is possible, i achieved that with luck and being on the right tables at the right time.

so I am just tossing that out there. it is possible good luck to you friend.

jonathan


( It also helped i think i was heads up [on a 9seat table] with a drunk guy took 1.3k from him)

I have decided to head back to school to get a BS in Nursing.



100 guys try this every day in poker. 1 (you) hits, the other 99 feed the rest of us.
 
Debi

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Sohmurr - if you only absorb the message in one post in this thread - please let it be Dorkus's post.

Good luck.
 
zachvac

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Sohmurr - if you only absorb the message in one post in this thread - please let it be Dorkus's post.

Good luck.

Agreed, he knows what he's talking about, both in poker and in life it seems.
 
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Dayne G.

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ok, now honestly is this supposed to help? At best this is a semantics argument and I'm pretty sure even that is wrong. Being a pro means deriving your primary income from it, so someone playing poker and not winning really can't be called a pro unless he plans on living on the streets. The OP wants to be able to afford a place to live, food, clothing, etc. with money won from poker. Is that better?

WINNING does not make you a pro! That's just false! If that was the definition of "professional," then anyone winning at .01/.02 is a pro??

Cmon, Zach... Pro mean ATTEMPTING TO PLAY FOR YOUR PRIMARY SOURCE OF INCOME, win or lose. There are plenty of losing pros, they're everywhere (I sit next to them in L.A. 4 days/wk). Many just get re-staked, or do live day-to-day (close to the streets).

I wasn't trying to be trite or cliche when I said turning pro is simple... it really is simple. TURNING pro VS. STAYING pro should be the argument. :)
 
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Thank you all for contributing. Anyone else with something to say is welcome to post too.

Also, did anyone listen to the radio interview I linked up in the original post? Alot of what people are saying was in that too. Especially Dorkus's comment about losing $40 vs $400. (Jen talks about the first time she lost $100,000 towards the end). Just curious. An old high school teacher linked me to it when I told her about my ambitions. Reading about bankroll management and the stresses of going pro was helpful, but nothing hit nearly as hard as listening to Jen talk about the swings and the emotional toll that losing all that money took out of her.

Had anyone heard it before either? I thought it was probably new to the forums because 1) I had never seen it mentioned in a poker forum before, and 2) hardly anyone listens to public radio.
 
zachvac

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WINNING does not make you a pro! That's just false! If that was the definition of "professional," then anyone winning at .01/.02 is a pro??

Cmon, Zach... Pro mean ATTEMPTING TO PLAY FOR YOUR PRIMARY SOURCE OF INCOME, win or lose. There are plenty of losing pros, they're everywhere (I sit next to them in L.A. 4 days/wk). Many just get re-staked, or do live day-to-day (close to the streets).

I wasn't trying to be trite or cliche when I said turning pro is simple... it really is simple. TURNING pro VS. STAYING pro should be the argument. :)

Bad logic, I never claimed anyone winning was a pro, but I did claim all pros were winners. Those are two completely different statements (sort of like how all of Houston is in Texas but not all of Texas is in Houston). To be a professional poker player, you must win money at poker, whether it's through the games or through endorsements and sponsorships (and not many people are willing to sponsor a losing player or use a losing player to sell their stuff). If they're playing in L.A. and they are losing, they are not pros. Baseball is probably what I spent the most time on apart from sleep last Spring. Does that mean I was a pro baseball player? No, because I wasn't making any money. Money's the key thing here. But if you want to get into semantics, the OP is asking about turning and staying a pro poker player and continuing to make enough money to comfortably support himself (correct me if I'm wrong OP).
 
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Dayne G.

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Bad logic, I never claimed anyone winning was a pro, but I did claim all pros were winners. Those are two completely different statements (sort of like how all of Houston is in Texas but not all of Texas is in Houston). To be a professional poker player, you must win money at poker, whether it's through the games or through endorsements and sponsorships (and not many people are willing to sponsor a losing player or use a losing player to sell their stuff). If they're playing in L.A. and they are losing, they are not pros. Baseball is probably what I spent the most time on apart from sleep last Spring. Does that mean I was a pro baseball player? No, because I wasn't making any money. Money's the key thing here. But if you want to get into semantics, the OP is asking about turning and staying a pro poker player and continuing to make enough money to comfortably support himself (correct me if I'm wrong OP).

I played professional tennis for 5 yrs, where all I did was travel and play. The 2 years I lost money (after travel expenses, equipment, etc), I WASN'T a professional??????? That's just plain ridiculous! The 3 yrs. I came out ahead, I WAS a pro?????

The players in L.A. that are losing at the end of the yr. are absolutely professionals... they're playing full-time, grinding day-after-day to try and support themselves. They're losing professionals, but still pros. Very few pros have endorsement deals-- those "t.v. pros" make up a tiny % of true, grinding pros that you see every day at the $40/80 & up tables.

Poker is unlike any other game in the world, where all you have to do to "turn pro" full-time is quit your day job. If the OP quit school to pursue his poker 40+ hr./wk, he'd be considered a Professional Poker Player (no matter the results).

[About your baseball, if you took a paycheck to play, you'd be considered a professional, win or lose].
 
zachvac

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I played professional tennis for 5 yrs, where all I did was travel and play. The 2 years I lost money (after travel expenses, equipment, etc), I WASN'T a professional??????? That's just plain ridiculous! The 3 yrs. I came out ahead, I WAS a pro?????
How did you pay the bills? The source of this income answers your question.
The players in L.A. that are losing at the end of the yr. are absolutely professionals... they're playing full-time, grinding day-after-day to try and support themselves. They're losing professionals, but still pros. Very few pros have endorsement deals-- those "t.v. pros" make up a tiny % of true, grinding pros that you see every day at the $40/80 & up tables.
I realize this, but people need money to pay the bills. Most like to live in a house, where clothes, have somewhere to shower every day, etc. This stuff costs money. To live most people need money. Where does this money come from? If it comes from tennis or poker, then that is your profession. Someone who loses can simply not pay the bills with that "income". In fact just because you win doesn't mean you're a pro. Someone who wins $1k/year probably can't pay the bills with that, so I'd say they aren't a pro.

Poker is unlike any other game in the world, where all you have to do to "turn pro" full-time is quit your day job. If the OP quit school to pursue his poker 40+ hr./wk, he'd be considered a Professional Poker Player (no matter the results).
Yes and how do they pay for new clothes, to clean the clothes, somewhere to shower, etc.? This costs money, if you quit school, play poker full time, and lose, it's kind of hard to pay for any of that. Life costs money, a "job" that loses money or only makes a tiny bit goes nowhere fast.

[About your baseball, if you took a paycheck to play, you'd be considered a professional, win or lose].

But in terms of money, I'd be able to support myself if they paid me. Instead I've got parents, scholarship, savings/job all helping to pay for school. If I used baseball to pay for school (which provides the necessities of life, food, shelter, showers, etc.) then I'd be a pro.
 
A

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Sohmurr - if you only absorb the message in one post in this thread - please let it be Dorkus's post. Good luck.

I simply can't agree more.

There is a lot of wisdom in Zach's posts and ChuckT's posts as well. You should re-read all three of these guy's posts in the order they were posted.

I want to touch on some points you said and that were said by others too. First off you made a point about freedom, man are you in for a big surprise when you become fully self employed as to what that freedom is. Sure, there is no "boss" to answer to in most people's minds but in reality you become the boss and must answer to yourself. No BS excuses gets by that boss unless one is dillusional. I've been self employed most of my life and have had plenty of employees. Trust me it isn't as easy by any means and you'll decidedly put in far more hours self employed than anyone does in a regular job. Time off is money down the drain. Taxes, soc security witholdings, insurance etc. are much higher too and must be factored in to the equation. No paid vacation time...Ever!

Next point, I see your dismay at the realisation of losing $400 vs losing $40. If you're going pro you'd better realise $400 is nothing. I've seen HU play where the buy in is 4K and players reloading 4 times in as little as 15 minutes! Sounds insane but it's the way it is. btw, that was Hoyt Corkins vs a guy from sweden, Hoyt had a good day but it could have easily gone the other way around. A week latter I watched Hoyt drop 8K in about the same time (15 minutes) and leave the table empty handed. This is online play, $$ gets much bigger live. We all know some pro's win/lose $400K a night but they are BR'd for it and used to losing that kind of money and can handle it emotionally. Are you mentaly prepared to drop that kind of cash several games in a row? That's a question only you can answer yourself.

In ending, Chasing a dream can be a very good thing as long as one is prepared to do so to the very best of his abilities. Never stop learning or you will quickly see those dreams come to an end. Finding your life's calling and living it is priceless. I found mine (not poker) and have lived to experience so many things most people only dream about I could never count them all. Perhaps Poker is yours, perhaps it is not. You will know because no matter what you will be eager to work each new day and with each passing day your skill in your chosen path grows exponetialy. The day you truely arrive is when you've won the best of the best but inside yourself you know you still have a lot of things to learn and try all the harder to become better at your chosen path.

If you do chase your dreams make sure you use your head and do it with achievable goals one step at a time. Don't rush yourself, it'll only lead to ruin. .


Now, go re-read those three posts I mentioned again and the read them at least one more time after that. Double check Zach's Cliff notes too while you're at it. (in his first post)
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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pro·fes·sion·alplay_w2("P0582300") (pr
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sh
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l)
adj. 1. a. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
b. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.

2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
3. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
4. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.

n. 1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.

/end silly debate.
 
dsvw56

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The players in L.A. that are losing at the end of the yr. are absolutely professionals... they're playing full-time, grinding day-after-day to try and support themselves. They're losing professionals, but still pros.

No, they are compulsive gamblers, and there is a huge distinction between "professional poker player" and "person that doesn't have a job, but plays poker".
 
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i would still go for the BRM, maybe not on the lowest level. But anything outside that BRM!! And uhm Good luck with it..
 
Chris_TC

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As I recall Phil Gordon started with 400k...
I very much doubt that this is true, but if it is then he's even more retarded than I ever thought.

Here's some motivation for the OP. 12 months of poker, courtesy of leatherass:
 
zachvac

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I very much doubt that this is true, but if it is then he's even more retarded than I ever thought.

Here's some motivation for the OP. 12 months of poker, courtesy of leatherass:

Does that include bonuses? Assuming this is the year he made sne?

But also take a look at the graph, he's one of the best. Now look at his progress from 423k to about 500k. Looks like he lost ~$20k over almost 80k hands. Imagine how tough that would be. It would be bad enough breaking even for that long, but depending on number of tables, that could be up over 2 weeks of work. You work full time for 2 weeks and are out ~$20k. Would you be able to handle that? Not saying you can't, just something to think about.

As I said, not trying to discourage anyone, I've definitely thought about it, just always make sure you make a backup plan and although getting better at poker is important, getting better at tilt management and playing under your BR is possibly more important so you can withstand runs like that.
 
Chris_TC

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It doesn't include bonuses or rakeback. Obviously, very few players will ever pull off a graph like this. But it can be done which was my main point I guess.
 
Monoxide

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Does that include bonuses? Assuming this is the year he made sne?

But also take a look at the graph, he's one of the best. Now look at his progress from 423k to about 500k. Looks like he lost ~$20k over almost 80k hands. Imagine how tough that would be. It would be bad enough breaking even for that long, but depending on number of tables, that could be up over 2 weeks of work. You work full time for 2 weeks and are out ~$20k. Would you be able to handle that? Not saying you can't, just something to think about.

As I said, not trying to discourage anyone, I've definitely thought about it, just always make sure you make a backup plan and although getting better at poker is important, getting better at tilt management and playing under your BR is possibly more important so you can withstand runs like that.

But what is a 20k loss for 2 weeks of work, when LA has made what appears to be $360,000 in a matter of 12-14 weeks? It probably didnt faze him at all. Now a player that made only $45,000 for the initial 432k hands then played for 2 weeks and lost 20k over 2 wks..... ouch it would be soul crushing.

even still like you said, prolly doesnt include bonuses.... he would have lost little, sick sick amount of fpps
 
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