You have to beat micro limits to advance and be a "good" player? Wrong in my opinion.

[isohatedis]

Hello everyone.

Now this has been debated before and I’ve had a thread with something simular before.

It’s the theory of “if you can’t beat micros you will never beat anything higher”

Now, I’m not really a lossing player, more break even at the minute with 0.1/0.2 level. I can sit there for hours, playing but long term success at these levels seems next to impossible to me.

Now i know what people are going to say:


“play preminum hands only and play aggresive” – That’s fine because i do.

Problem is, it works on occasions but everyone literally does call a raise with crap. So say after 2/3hours of grinding for example like the other night i was up about $4.00 playing ABC poker. So...you’d begin to think yeah they are beatable however I’ve literrally had callers all over the show pushing down all sorts of crap and luckily mine have held up.

Anyyyway, so you again get a good hand and play TAG only for now to be sucked out when your massive favorite. This only has to happen a couple of times for your profit to now be in the red. So what am i supposed to do? Fold my premnums when showing a profit or something lol? It’s a joke.

Perfect example last night. I had AA and raised 4xBB and yep you guessed it 5 callers at 6maxtable.
Now, would i of got even one caller caller if the money was actually worth something? Proberly not.

Anywaym on the flop comes rainbow and possible straight draw and i knew someone would be holding a straight draw. I tried one last raise to then be re-raised and re-reaised again by others so i folded. 2 left in and at show down one called my raise with something like 8,5 os and one called with A,4. The 8,5 won with a straight.

I asked the guys “why would you call a raise, clearly i had high pair or at least a pair” Their answer? “it’s only 6 cents” True and indeed it’s nothing to fret about but this is the take everyone has on the game at this level. “its only a few cents i’m gonna call”

The point is, this happens 9 times out of 10. A raise at these levels means absolutely NOTHING so how the **** are you supposed to play? The point is, someone 9 times out of 10 will call your raise. Did i get this at a casino playing cash games for the first time ever at 5/10 stakes? No i didn’t and i walked of with over £500 in profit..

So how does peoples theories of if you can’t beat the lowest levels you can’t beat the higher ones. Absolute rubbish to be honest, people just don’t know how to fold or not bothered about lossing a few bucks. At the higher level this would never of got called unless they was holding something decent.

Over time you might just about show a profit but the basic concept of poker doesn't exsist at this level, what am i supposed to do? It happens time and time again it seems pointless. What are your suggestions? Deposit a lot of monies and try luck at higher levels? It's driving me mad trying to build a roll sat there for hours to show a profit and to carry on playing ABC poker etc to then lose 2 of your BIG hands to absolute garbage..i'm really just stuck on what to do.

i agree that .1/.2 limits will not agree with everyone,for example one of my previous bosses liked online poker but he would have to sit at a table with 50 euros to play(because he had and was making good money so he would not be able to take the game seriously at lower levels)

 

[rssurfer54]

Hello everyone.

Now this has been debated before and I’ve had a thread with something simular before.

It’s the theory of “if you can’t beat micros you will never beat anything higher”

Now, I’m not really a lossing player, more break even at the minute with 0.1/0.2 level. I can sit there for hours, playing but long term success at these levels seems next to impossible to me.

Now i know what people are going to say:


“play preminum hands only and play aggresive” – That’s fine because i do.

Problem is, it works on occasions but everyone literally does call a raise with crap. So say after 2/3hours of grinding for example like the other night i was up about $4.00 playing ABC poker. So...you’d begin to think yeah they are beatable however I’ve literrally had callers all over the show pushing down all sorts of crap and luckily mine have held up.

Anyyyway, so you again get a good hand and play TAG only for now to be sucked out when your massive favorite. This only has to happen a couple of times for your profit to now be in the red. So what am i supposed to do? Fold my premnums when showing a profit or something lol? It’s a joke.

Perfect example last night. I had AA and raised 4xBB and yep you guessed it 5 callers at 6maxtable.
Now, would i of got even one caller caller if the money was actually worth something? Proberly not.

Anywaym on the flop comes rainbow and possible straight draw and i knew someone would be holding a straight draw. I tried one last raise to then be re-raised and re-reaised again by others so i folded. 2 left in and at show down one called my raise with something like 8,5 os and one called with A,4. The 8,5 won with a straight.

I asked the guys “why would you call a raise, clearly i had high pair or at least a pair” Their answer? “it’s only 6 cents” True and indeed it’s nothing to fret about but this is the take everyone has on the game at this level. “its only a few cents i’m gonna call”

The point is, this happens 9 times out of 10. A raise at these levels means absolutely NOTHING so how the **** are you supposed to play? The point is, someone 9 times out of 10 will call your raise. Did i get this at a casino playing cash games for the first time ever at 5/10 stakes? No i didn’t and i walked of with over £500 in profit..

So how does peoples theories of if you can’t beat the lowest levels you can’t beat the higher ones. Absolute rubbish to be honest, people just don’t know how to fold or not bothered about lossing a few bucks. At the higher level this would never of got called unless they was holding something decent.

Over time you might just about show a profit but the basic concept of poker doesn't exsist at this level, what am i supposed to do? It happens time and time again it seems pointless. What are your suggestions? Deposit a lot of monies and try luck at higher levels? It's driving me mad trying to build a roll sat there for hours to show a profit and to carry on playing ABC poker etc to then lose 2 of your BIG hands to absolute garbage..i'm really just stuck on what to do.

if people are calling when you raise 4x bb, then raise to 5, or 6, or.... how ever much you can get the fish to call with when you are a favorite.

 

[fx20736]

http://www.pokertableratings.com/stars-player-search/BlackRain79

That's one of our new coaches at dragthebar.com

Notice he has almost 2 million hands on there at stakes of .01/.02 and .02/.05 and is crushing it over 20 bb/100. I think it's safe to say it's beatable over the long run

The problem is players don't understand how to exploit their opponent's mistakes. They want to play loosely preflop and bluff. That's not a profitable strategy against opponents that refuse to fold. You want to have patience, get strong starting hands and then make solid value bets. It's the foundation to good poker, and people saying you can't beat the micros simply don't even have the footers down to start making a solid foundation to play good poker. It's not understanding the very basics of the game.

I see the merit of this. The only part that is confusing is the contradiction between 'don't go broke with one pair' concept causing one to fold their QQ to a re-raise OOP on a dry board vs. dealing with the bad players to shove with ANY pair postflop. I've seen players shove unimproved 77 on a K high board and had someone shove over my c-bet with QQ on a K high board when I held AA. Is there some kind of range/ equity concept that applies here? I hate to fold when I am a favorite.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Oh i see blackrain. I stand corrected, maybe it's purely because I'm to impatient i don't know. Very impressive results and indeed clearly possible. Maybe i need to look at my game a bit, maybe I'm playing it completely wrong.

By the way to the people who are saying rigtard. \what is a "rigtard"? Sounds like something some spotty faced kid would say back in my on line computer gaming days....sigh... If it's some sort of insult for a retard then please, don't. I'm not retarded I'm asking questions because I'm fairly new to the poker scene which is what this forum is about I thought?

Thanks for all the positive replies guys though I think I'm going to work more on my game.

 

[pokerman27]

Oh i see blackrain. I stand corrected, maybe it's purely because I'm to impatient i don't know. Very impressive results and indeed clearly possible. Maybe i need to look at my game a bit, maybe I'm playing it completely wrong.

By the way to the people who are saying rigtard. \what is a "rigtard"? Sounds like something some spotty faced kid would say back in my on line computer gaming days....sigh... If it's some sort of insult for a retard then please, don't. I'm not retarded I'm asking questions because I'm fairly new to the poker scene which is what this forum is about I thought?

Thanks for all the positive replies guys though I think I'm going to work more on my game.

I think patience is key at any level. Post some hands in the HA section and not just the ones where you lose with KK or AA, That happens but not as often as you should be winning. Post some of the more marginal hands up - this is where your main leaks will be.

As for the rigtard bit - there was another poster in this thread that nearly derailed it spouting nonsense about getting more pocket aces when the sites need more rake. The usual 'OMG poker is rigged rubbish'.

Seriously, stick with it you'll get there. I'm not ashamed to admit that I struggle at $2NL and not for the 'people don't respect my rasies' reasons but because I'm yet to be a good enough player. However, in the last 3 months I have really studied the game, posted hands, made videos, read books, sweated sessions and it has helped HUGELY. I've grinded now a BR enabling me to play $5NL with 30 buyins though I'm sticking at $2NL until I'm convinced i'm beating it and not just on a big heater.

 

[LuckyChippy]

Oh i see blackrain. I stand corrected, maybe it's purely because I'm to impatient i don't know. Very impressive results and indeed clearly possible. Maybe i need to look at my game a bit, maybe I'm playing it completely wrong.

By the way to the people who are saying rigtard. \what is a "rigtard"? Sounds like something some spotty faced kid would say back in my on line computer gaming days....sigh... If it's some sort of insult for a retard then please, don't. I'm not retarded I'm asking questions because I'm fairly new to the poker scene which is what this forum is about I thought?

Thanks for all the positive replies guys though I think I'm going to work more on my game.

Finally. Now you see that you must improve you can improve. I am a bad player, everyone on this site is a bad player. Virtually nobody in the whole poker world is solid and everyone can improve, its this realisation then acting upon it which will lead you to beat the game, and when you can, learn to beat it for more or at higher stakes.

The common misconception among new players is that they need to move up where people respect their raises.

Awesome ♥

But seriously, 2 great posts there.

 

[forsakenone]

You need to raise a lot more at 1c/2c.
Try 10 BB. If everyone is still calling, raise more.

There is nothing better than a table with total lunatics. Sit back, ship it when you have QQ+ and watch as someone calls with two random suited cards.

agree, i have been doing it for 200k hands, works fine, when you raise this much, they will give you more respect.

these players don't see a 3x as a raise, but as 6c just as they told you, make it 16c with AA.

 

[forsakenone]

I have a free video at dragthebar.com on this type of concept.

http://www.dragthebar.com/poker-videos/viewer.php?id=556

The thing about which limit to start. Basically, you're probably going to be losing while you learn to play the game well. Because of this, you get to pay for your education while you learn. The new player starting at $1kNL will obviously lose much more while learning than the player starting at 10NL. Not only that, the average player at 1k will be much more skilled at carving up new players than the average player at 10nl. If a player wants to start learning at 1knl, that's their prerogative of course, but it makes little financial sense.

The common misconception among new players is that they need to move up where people respect their raises. They decide they can't win because no one folds to their bluffs. The truth is those are the easiest games to beat. If you can't beat those games, forget about beating the higher stakes. With poker being basically a zero sum game (minus the rake), the money a winning player makes comes from their opponent's mistakes. The opponents at the micros are making the most costly mistakes in poker and are doing it very frequently.

He is right, when i started playing 2nl i had no idea what to do, lucky me i kept seeing blackrain79 at my tables, always winning and guess what i did, i studied this guy, i checked out his sessions on pokertableratings, looked at his winning hands, and at what he was doing. didn't take me long to catch up, added a little bit of me in the mix, as soon as you know it i was winning without at tracker at 2nl full ring at 11 bb/100.

now when i got a tracker, i was winning at 20 bb/100. 2nl is just a donating machine, learn how to use it.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Seriously, stick with it you'll get there. I'm not ashamed to admit that I struggle at $2NL and not for the 'people don't respect my rasies' reasons but because I'm yet to be a good enough player. However, in the last 3 months I have really studied the game, posted hands, made videos, read books, sweated sessions and it has helped HUGELY. I've grinded now a BR enabling me to play $5NL with 30 buyins though I'm sticking at $2NL until I'm convinced i'm beating it and not just on a big heater.

I see the bolded as a mistake nearly as big as wanting to move up because you think the micros are unbeatable. If you're comfortable with a 30BI BR (and I think you should be at 5nl) move up NOW! The absolute worse thing that could happen is that you lose ~5 BIs and have to move down. No biggie. But you guys should be looking to get out of micro stakes as quickly as possible. The rake is REALLY hard to beat when it's such a huge % of every pot. So yes, stay at 2nl until you've won something but the second you feel rolled for the next step move up. You're costing yourself money down the road and delaying your development. Don't fall into the "I want 50K hands at a level before I know I'm really beating it" trap. Who cares. Move up as quickly as good BRM practices allow imo.

 

[kmixer]

Some of the comments are clearly rigtard but I am not sure the entire topic is.

If I am raising with AA KK QQ and other quality hands as i should be and I am getting like 4-5 callers per hand aren;t my chances of losing a lot greater than if say I only get one or two callers because these high PPs go down in value when the amount of people that see the flop goes up.

Having said that does it become a matter of Shove fold play all the time?

These types of plays do not exist (at at least not as much) at the higher levels so it only makes sens that the bad beats would happen less often. This isnt to say you will be able to beat the higher levels just to say that you most likely arent going to showdown with AA vs 52 72 and Q3o

 

[Theblueduce]

Concur with WVHillbilly......take your shot when you think you are ready.

 

[RamdeeBen]

agree, i have been doing it for 200k hands, works fine, when you raise this much, they will give you more respect.

these players don't see a 3x as a raise, but as 6c just as they told you, make it 16c with AA.

It's ok saying that but if you're raising that much they are surely going to put you on aces/kings? Even the worse player in the worse player in the world. Especially if you're a TAG player like myself and folding most of the time. I wouldn't just pull of an outrageous bluff for no reason.

 

[RamdeeBen]

I see the bolded as a mistake nearly as big as wanting to move up because you think the micros are unbeatable. If you're comfortable with a 30BI BR (and I think you should be at 5nl) move up NOW! The absolute worse thing that could happen is that you lose ~5 BIs and have to move down. No biggie. But you guys should be looking to get out of micro stakes as quickly as possible. The rake is REALLY hard to beat when it's such a huge % of every pot. So yes, stay at 2nl until you've won something but the second you feel rolled for the next step move up. You're costing yourself money down the road and delaying your development. Don't fall into the "I want 50K hands at a level before I know I'm really beating it" trap. Who cares. Move up as quickly as good BRM practices allow imo.

I think I have the bankroll for it, just over $100.. so I might just try the 5nl and see how I get on. I really just hate losing even 5/10% of my roll it puts me on a downer and makes me doubt nearly everything I thought I had learnt.


PS: Is there even much of a difference in skill level between 2 and 5?

 

[WVHillbilly]

Don't know for sure but I would seriously doubt it.

 

[thunder1276]

alot of the posts on this thread are some bad advice. If you start playing like a super nit and only playing AA KK QQ and limping huge suited connectors what do you plan on doing when you do finally do make it past the micro levels you wont have a great idea on how to play. I started at those same levels with a $6 freeroll cash so I feel your pain. I had alot of trouble breaking up out of the .01 .02 level as well. The best thing I did for my bankroll was to switch over to limit holdem 6-Max. At limit you are still going to have these same bad beats that you would NL but since there is a limit to how much you bet you are going to have a hard time losing your entire buy in. stay away from the full ring because there are way to many people calling all the way down. I built a nice bankroll of $350 playing LHE 6-Max.

 

[absoluthamm]

It's ok saying that but if you're raising that much they are surely going to put you on aces/kings? Even the worse player in the worse player in the world. Especially if you're a TAG player like myself and folding most of the time. I wouldn't just pull of an outrageous bluff for no reason.

Really??? This was earlier today...

full tilt poker $5.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - Wednesday, October 06, 03:48:08 ET 2010

UTG+1: $3.47
Hero (UTG+2): $5.93
MP1: $4.34
MP2: $30.27
CO: $9.99
BTN: $4.95
SB: $9.78
BB: $25.19
UTG: $17.98

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is UTG+2 with A

A

1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.30, 3 folds, BTN raises to $0.55, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1.95, BTN raises to $4.95, Hero calls $4.20

Flop: ($10.02) J

J

3

Turn: ($10.02) 8

River: ($10.02) 9

Final Pot: $10.02
Hero shows A

A

BTN shows A

6

Hero wins $9.36
(Rake: $0.66)

alot of the posts on this thread are some bad advice. If you start playing like a super nit and only playing AA KK QQ and limping huge suited connectors what do you plan on doing when you do finally do make it past the micro levels you wont have a great idea on how to play. I started at those same levels with a $6 freeroll cash so I feel your pain. I had alot of trouble breaking up out of the .01 .02 level as well. The best thing I did for my bankroll was to switch over to limit holdem 6-Max. At limit you are still going to have these same bad beats that you would NL but since there is a limit to how much you bet you are going to have a hard time losing your entire buy in. stay away from the full ring because there are way to many people calling all the way down. I built a nice bankroll of $350 playing LHE 6-Max.

Limit is dangerous to play without a padded bankroll because you can't price people out of hands. Everyone nearly always has the odds to make a call to chase a draw, so it is very often that you see the "bad beats" of Aces getting cracked when the person holding them was betting across all betting rounds and they lose to a rivered flush.


(btw, see how I did that? I commented on TWO people at once in a single post, not having to double post to get two points across...)

 

[RamdeeBen]

Yeah I'm sure you will get a call every now and again but i don't think it would be profitable longterm?I'm on about my image. I dunno what the other image of the player was there but you know if I'm raising I've got something. The point I'm making is that you want value for your pocket aces.. Most of the time someone isn't going to call 10xbb bet. So I'd be stealing 3cents in blinds. Hardly worth it. Besides then what happens when I get middle pair and either limp or do small raise. Then get out flopped and lose the blinds i just won from the Aces. Surely I'd never win anything. Break even at best..

EDIT: Yeah mate it's amazing. See how I'm replying to your "ps" by editing my previous post. Whats so great about quoting 2 people in one post anyway? If we was doing that, we would all have one post per thread and just constantly editing it or adding the quotes!

Seriously though, it makes easier reading for people if you quote that one person and reply to them.

 

[pokerman27]

I see the bolded as a mistake nearly as big as wanting to move up because you think the micros are unbeatable. If you're comfortable with a 30BI BR (and I think you should be at 5nl) move up NOW! The absolute worse thing that could happen is that you lose ~5 BIs and have to move down. No biggie. But you guys should be looking to get out of micro stakes as quickly as possible. The rake is REALLY hard to beat when it's such a huge % of every pot. So yes, stay at 2nl until you've won something but the second you feel rolled for the next step move up. You're costing yourself money down the road and delaying your development. Don't fall into the "I want 50K hands at a level before I know I'm really beating it" trap. Who cares. Move up as quickly as good BRM practices allow imo.

I take your point, but I think playing too conservatively, BR wise, is better than spewing at levels way outside of your BR. That said, you are right and I'll shoot at $5NL then!

 

[FEARFACTOR]

I started out on FT with $0.40 won from a freeroll, and then played the .01/.02 Nl tables super tight. As other posters have said, they absolutely can be profitable that way. You just can't bluff, period, because like OP said, someone or everyone will call you. Just play solid poker, and in the long run you will come out ahead. .02/.05 isn't much different, but .05/.10 is better players who don't have a huge roll. I suggest playing the .05/.10 CAP games after you get $50 or more.

 

[brank]

More proof that they will call huge bets and I wasn't playing like a maniac so...


Full Tilt Poker $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: $2.34
BB: $1.16
Hero (UTG): $2.68
MP: $1.48
CO: $2.52
BTN: $1.06

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is UTG with K :spade: K :heart:
Hero raises to $0.08, MP raises to $0.27, 4 folds, Hero raises to $2.68 all in, MP calls $1.21 all in

Flop: ($2.99) 6 :heart: 5 :heart: 2 :heart:

Turn: ($2.99) 9 :diamond:

River: ($2.99) T :spade:


Final Pot: $2.99
Hero shows K :spade: K :heart: (a pair of Kings)
MP shows J :heart: Q :diamond: (Queen Jack high)
Hero wins $2.80
(Rake: $0.19)

 

[cAPSLOCK]

PS: Is there even much of a difference in skill level between 2 and 5?

Nope. VERY slight difference... compensate by choosing tables slightly more carefully.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Nope. VERY slight difference... compensate by choosing tables slightly more carefully.

Speaking of over-rolled micro players!

 

[eamesy4980]

Another one right here. If it is unbeatable then why are there so many respected members on CC and other sites(I'll go ahead and include myself in this) that say you are 100% completely wrong? I have built my bankroll up to triple and quadruple digits on multiple sites by working my way up through the micros and staying within my bankroll until I was able to comfortably move up. Yes, there are calling stations and overaggressive players, and I love them. Who gives a shit when their 53o makes the straight that one time when I have stacked them 5 times prior to that when they tried doing the same thing.

You mention that you can't bluff someone out of a hand, that makes me believe that you are trying to bluff way too often. It is not something that should be used on every other hand that you take to showdown. If your bluffs aren't working, then just value bet, value bet, value bet.



I will agree with you that a lot of the mixed games are easy to beat because people don't know the ins and outs of a lot of the games and Razz is one of my favorites, but that isn't where the fish are, so I don't go there often.

I dont play them stakes anymore. I never used to bluff because know you cant. But i meant in higher stakes a well thought out bluff would work as you see all the time you can get people lay down top pair and even trips etc. But you wont do that in micro stakes so thats 1 weapon in making money gone. A good poker has certain skills and bluffing at right time is 1 of them but it isnt in micros as youl simply get called by anything. Obviously this has good points as you can make money with your good hands but i think that gets cancelled out by the amount of people in pots and your good hands becoem a rareity and therefore not very protiable when consider the amount of times youl lose due to amount of callers. When all added up its just not a game to play for money. Some people may make money playing it but how much? the hourly rate is hardly going to be worth it. Not when there are games out there that you can produe great results. Id rather play 8 game and make 4 dollars off 1 table in an hour rather than play micro and make 10 cents. The 8 game results ive had shows you produce more profit with a lot less risk. I started with 500 BR play very tight BR management, probs too tight but puts absolutely no risk to my BR. I buy in with 10 at 20 40 cents. Have turned 500 into 610 since the 1st of october when first started. I play 1 table mostly and sometimes 2. Dont play too often, play few hours a day at most. Would i get 110 profit playing nl holdem micros? hell no id be lucky to get 10 lol. My profits isnt just a good run neither. Ive lost 3 whole buy ins when had aces in omaha been reraised both all in guys turned over kings and hit k on flop, had huge variance so not just a lucky streak.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Speaking of over-rolled micro players!

I am the king.

 

[WVHillbilly]

I dont play them stakes anymore. I never used to bluff because know you cant. But i meant in higher stakes a well thought out bluff would work as you see all the time you can get people lay down top pair and even trips etc. But you wont do that in micro stakes so thats 1 weapon in making money gone. A good poker has certain skills and bluffing at right time is 1 of them but it isnt in micros as youl simply get called by anything. Obviously this has good points as you can make money with your good hands but i think that gets cancelled out by the amount of people in pots and your good hands becoem a rareity and therefore not very protiable when consider the amount of times youl lose due to amount of callers. When all added up its just not a game to play for money. Some people may make money playing it but how much? the hourly rate is hardly going to be worth it. Not when there are games out there that you can produe great results. Id rather play 8 game and make 4 dollars off 1 table in an hour rather than play micro and make 10 cents. The 8 game results ive had shows you produce more profit with a lot less risk. I started with 500 BR play very tight BR management, probs too tight but puts absolutely no risk to my BR. I buy in with 10 at 20 40 cents. Have turned 500 into 610 since the 1st of october when first started. I play 1 table mostly and sometimes 2. Dont play too often, play few hours a day at most. Would i get 110 profit playing nl holdem micros? hell no id be lucky to get 10 lol. My profits isnt just a good run neither. Ive lost 3 whole buy ins when had aces in omaha been reraised both all in guys turned over kings and hit k on flop, had huge variance so not just a lucky streak.

So you're basing on your knowledge on a good 6 and 1/2 days of 1 to 2 tables? What's that like 2000 hands? Solid sample to make assumptions.