quick
Legend
Silver Level
I'm almost never folding KK pre flop. In fact there's probably only 4 situations where I'd even remotely consider folding. And even in these 4 situations I'm probably not actually folding 99% of the time:
1.) If villian shows me AA pre flop. I actually had a villian at a live 1/2 game do this. He raises, I 3-bet him, folds back to him, he 4- bets me. I tank and he goes "I have aces, i'll even show you." He turns over one ace; i tank some more, he goes "You seem like a nice guy and a decent player, you wanna gamble we'll gamble or you fold" and turns over both cards for AA. I actually almost called even then but I basically had two outs so I folded. I have no idea why he did that to this day.
2.) If I'm on or near the bubble in a tournament and a KK fold will pretty much guarantee getting ITM and I'm not so short that it would be a waste. If I'm under 15bb I'd probably auto shove regardless of bubble, but if I was deeper stacked, I'd fold into the money then get back to building the stack.
3.) If I'm so deep in a cash game and villian has me covered I might consider a fold. There's a pro player, I believe The Iceman who has actually even folded AA before when super deep stacked because it reduces his variance he says. I don't agree with this move but if you're sitting like 5x+ buy ins deep and a villian with 6x deep shoves on your KK are you comfortable with gambling with that much profit?
4.) There's multiple all ins already. Like situation 3 there's always a risk here in multi-way deep pots,. Again depends on risk tolerance and ability to deal with variance so I've seen players fold KK and even AA facing 3+ all ins ahead of them.
And honestly there's a big problem with situation 3 folds because it, at some level, indicates scared money or at least fear of losing said money. Folding isn't correct in nearly all cases of situation 3. And even situation 4 is a little dicey because when facing so many all ins, sure we might run into AA, but could also run into AK-1010.
Long story short it's almost never correct to fold KK pre flop in a cash game.
1.) If villian shows me AA pre flop. I actually had a villian at a live 1/2 game do this. He raises, I 3-bet him, folds back to him, he 4- bets me. I tank and he goes "I have aces, i'll even show you." He turns over one ace; i tank some more, he goes "You seem like a nice guy and a decent player, you wanna gamble we'll gamble or you fold" and turns over both cards for AA. I actually almost called even then but I basically had two outs so I folded. I have no idea why he did that to this day.
2.) If I'm on or near the bubble in a tournament and a KK fold will pretty much guarantee getting ITM and I'm not so short that it would be a waste. If I'm under 15bb I'd probably auto shove regardless of bubble, but if I was deeper stacked, I'd fold into the money then get back to building the stack.
3.) If I'm so deep in a cash game and villian has me covered I might consider a fold. There's a pro player, I believe The Iceman who has actually even folded AA before when super deep stacked because it reduces his variance he says. I don't agree with this move but if you're sitting like 5x+ buy ins deep and a villian with 6x deep shoves on your KK are you comfortable with gambling with that much profit?
4.) There's multiple all ins already. Like situation 3 there's always a risk here in multi-way deep pots,. Again depends on risk tolerance and ability to deal with variance so I've seen players fold KK and even AA facing 3+ all ins ahead of them.
And honestly there's a big problem with situation 3 folds because it, at some level, indicates scared money or at least fear of losing said money. Folding isn't correct in nearly all cases of situation 3. And even situation 4 is a little dicey because when facing so many all ins, sure we might run into AA, but could also run into AK-1010.
Long story short it's almost never correct to fold KK pre flop in a cash game.
supernuts25
Visionary
Silver Level
i think you just have to play it how you feel, I think folding preflop and folding preflop to all in is two separate questions .
if it's just a bet or a reraise I'm mot sure you fold ever, unless you have some kinda read.
now if it's to a all in preflop then u have to decide that's a little different. but i wouldn't imagine your folding very often .
you have to go with your read
if it's just a bet or a reraise I'm mot sure you fold ever, unless you have some kinda read.
now if it's to a all in preflop then u have to decide that's a little different. but i wouldn't imagine your folding very often .
you have to go with your read
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FreeDom1998
Rock Star
Silver Level
For example: I can throw out Two Kings pre-flop, when I sit at the final table with the second stack, and ChipLider puts all-in, I'm likely to fold, because there are players with short stacks, and it will be bad if I cure from the tournament with the second stack
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fezjones
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I have never in my life gotten away from kings. And when I look back at the mistakes I've made in poker life, going broke with KK is nowhere near the biggest f up.In other words you can win at poker by fixing a lot of things, but folding KK is one of the last things to do.
Marcwantstowin
Member of the T.S.T
Moderator
There are a lot of good quotes here, which save me some time. However, I assume you are talking about a cash game, (and not being a cash game player), if so, I thought the idea, more with cash than tournaments, is to "get it in good" with the opportunity to double your money, and the fact, if you are playing good BRM, you should be able to re-stack your pile, then never fold KK.
In tournaments, (unless it is a rebuy), you are playing for your tournament life, so yes you can fold KK.
Imagine the situation, you are playing a $11.00 Big tourney, and the bubble is 20 places away. You are in the CO, and the utg, (the big stack), has min raised, and been re-raised by a player who has gone all-in. His stack size is similar to yours, and you have the good old KK. Do you call or fold. I know my answer. I would fold. The opportunity, to min cash, and have further opportunities to raise, out weigh, the chance of a double-up here or triple up, or bust out are good tournament play.
I see you have been busted by AA five times, when holding KK? I would like to know the times, that you have held QQ, JJ or TT and doubled up against AK or AQ or AJ. I would bet there are plenty. Variance can be a right PITA, but with good BRM, you should be able to withstand it, and persevere in your quest.
Good luck.
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Jwinter21
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Folding kk preflop
According to Doug Polk you should never fold pocket ks preflop unless you have more than 100 bbs. That being said though it is my personal opinion that if you're playing against a player who never 4 bets and you get 4 bet you might just pick a better spot. If it's someone who 4 bets light then you just gotta go with it. It's part of the game. The crappy thing is that kk is one of the last hands I would want against aces. Your only about 15% against aces with kk. You have 2 outs for a set and less chance of hitting a straight since some of your straights use an ace. I would prefer have a hand like 98suited because you have alot more chance at cracking aces. But that being said I'm never gonna call a 4 bet with 98 suited.
According to Doug Polk you should never fold pocket ks preflop unless you have more than 100 bbs. That being said though it is my personal opinion that if you're playing against a player who never 4 bets and you get 4 bet you might just pick a better spot. If it's someone who 4 bets light then you just gotta go with it. It's part of the game. The crappy thing is that kk is one of the last hands I would want against aces. Your only about 15% against aces with kk. You have 2 outs for a set and less chance of hitting a straight since some of your straights use an ace. I would prefer have a hand like 98suited because you have alot more chance at cracking aces. But that being said I'm never gonna call a 4 bet with 98 suited.
charlesdenis
Rock Star
Silver Level
I think it depends a lot on how your action at the table is, if I'm the first to speak I usually open with 2.2x as I would open with any other card, and if the case is 3-bet I usually do 3x on top of the villain's reise and I add 1+ blind on top of each player who entered the hand.
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infiniti888
Rising Star
Bronze Level
On KK, I make a big raise or all-in. If you go without a raise, there is a possibility to lose even a pair of deuces.
At КК you can win if comes 3th king or if the opponent hasn't ACE. This happens a lot. Even at 10-10 a lot make all-in before the flop.
At КК you can win if comes 3th king or if the opponent hasn't ACE. This happens a lot. Even at 10-10 a lot make all-in before the flop.
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effece
Rock Star
Silver Level
KK in hand are not for pre-flop. the fact of losing 4.5 or 9 hands with those cards is only a restatement of our game. I often happen with AA. they are only statistics, we should concentrate on what kind of bet we make with them
FF2586
Rock Star
Bronze Level
Haha, hilarious! I hate when I see them!!!
I would never fold 'em in hold'em no limit though. And for the reason that our friend opened the thread, I always prefer to buy in single table cash games, multi-table and spot the weak players, then whenever I grow a stack I get careful even with aces deep, when I get to 400BB+. And that kinda of cooler frequency is very low in games other than zoom pokerstars and snap 888. Because people are not folding that easy to get to the next hand, so they really narrow their range, and it would be reasonable to think that the nit's 4bet's range is only aces in the zoom games!
I would advice to play PLO zoom, you wouldn't be forced to get all in each time you get Ks, but you gotta know how to handle the action.
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KevinLee
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Are you playing full ring or 6 max? There are a few conditions that I could ever see folding KK preflop. Maybe at full ring facing a UTG super nit and 250+ BB deep. The population tendencies at the micros makes staking off with KK +ev all day every day.
