Some Bluffing Advice and 7,2

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VegasGrinder

Guest
First off,,,,Forget the 7,2.....Never play this Hand. The odds of a 7 or 2 hitting are the same as any pther cards. But they are weak cards and will be beat by anyone who pairs one of their playable cards.

7,2 has no Straight Possibilities.....All Playable hands do.

7,2 suited could catch a flush but won't beat anyone else who catches a flush because no one plays either cards.


bluffing - You need 2 of these things to bluff

1) Outs - Always have outs on your Bluffs incase you are called. (Straight Draw, Flush Draw)

2) Weakness - A sign of Weakness from your opponent. If you beleave he is weak, take down the pot right than.

3) A bad card to hit the board. Say you are on a straight draw with j,10. Flop is Q,9,5. Your opponent fires at you and you have called and have a nice size pot now. He probably has A,Q or K,Q. Top pair with a strong kicker and a hand that majority would play and bet with. Now the turn comes 9 pairing the Board. Now is the time to Bluff. Most likely the 9 didn't help him. The odds are against it actualy. He wouldn't of attacked with 2nd pair.


Side Note on Bluffing - Before you Bluff, ask yourself this question. Am I Ready to fire 3 Bullets? I read where one guy will bluff and if he is called he will back off. That is a Big Mistake and realy isn't a Bluff but more of a Donation to the Pot Strategy. Bluffs on the Flop will get called a good number of times. So Fire again on the Turn. If he just calls than be ready to fire a 3rd time on the river. That 3rd Bullet has to be a strong one.

One last thing on Bluffing. Make it worth the risk. Don't Bluff at small Pots. If you are called down and beat, you lose a lot but if you with you only win a small pot. Go after the BIG Pots.

I don't like the Sklansky thing of picking a hand and always Bluffing with it. Players pick up on it and will have you on a hand. Also you don't know the situation is right. Bluffing has to be done at the right time and be beleavable.
 
Grumbledook

Grumbledook

Guest
Good post there, though there is a lot more to bluffing.

Point number 2) A sign of weakness

If your opponent is showing this then you usually take the pot regardless of what cards you have.

Scary flops/low flops are good to attack at as well, specially if you were in the big blind and saw the flop for free or cheaply.

Basically you can bluff better when you know more about your opponenet and put them on a hand. A guy who calls every flop isn't a good one to stone cold bluff at. You will definatly need some outs here as they may well just keep calling.

Bluffing is a complex part of the game, but an important thing to remember is that at low limits people tend to call you anyway. You are better off just playing tight aggressive poker as people will pay you off anyway as well.
 
N

nextdoggie

Guest
Always compare your stack to the stacks of those you are trying to bluff. If you are short stacked, you don't represent much of a threat to those with big stacks.
 
K

kardmania

Rock Star
The downside to this great strategy is that if you are playing online with either bet crazy or poor players the subtleties of your move will fly over their heads.
 
P

Poker Player 100

Rock Star
wow. pretty good tips did u copy and paste?


I like how you put bluffing in small pots..its intresting
 
MicheleW

MicheleW

Rock Star
Hi - Sometimes a sign of weakness is also slow playing. So watch it when bluffing - you never know if your opponent is just hoping your get suckered in.

If you feel someone is betting, betting, betting - watch the bets ... and if you have the best hand out there - go for it. I had one guy tell me "nice call" when I called him 3 times on his bets and won. I knew he didn't have anything better than me or he would have bet a lot bigger. It wasn't a good call on my part to call him ... I knew I had the best hand!
 
V

VegasGrinder

Guest
Kardmania, you are right....You can't Bluff a Bad player...They don't know enough to fold their hand.

Poker Player 100, No I didn't copy and paste. Lots of typing errors in there. Sorry aout that.

Michele, Yes some players will slow play. You realy need to get to know the Players at your Table. A Check isn't always a sign of weakness but majority of the time it is. A weak bet is the same way.
 
MicheleW

MicheleW

Rock Star
I would think that most players here are freeroll players and it is very difficult to know the players at your table because not too soon after you arrive at a table you are either moved to another or two or three new players come on your table. For that reason, its difficult to "get to know the Players at your Table".

If you are in a Sit and Go with 1 or 2 tables, its much easier to know the players and much easier to apply much of the advice given by others.

I suggest you learn the basics of poker and adjust your play to your best advantage. You will only get better by playing more using your personal technique - not by using techniques of others.

I won't say how I play - that's my secret.
 
RammerJammer

RammerJammer

Visionary
Awards
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kardmania said:
The downside to this great strategy is that if you are playing online with either bet crazy or poor players the subtleties of your move will fly over their heads.

VegasGrinder said:
Kardmania, you are right....You can't Bluff a Bad player...They don't know enough to fold their hand.
You guys must be reading your Super System. Good lads, then!

"You simply can't bluff a bad player...because a bad player will play when he's got some kind of a hand and will pass when he doesn't have a hand. I mean...it's clear-cut. You don't have to be an expert psychologist to figure out what he's doing. All you have to know is if he's in the pot...he's got something. And you're not going to get him out of the pot by trying to bluff him.

"Above all...you don't want to gamble with a weak player. Forget about that...show him a hand. You do very fundamental things against a bad player. Obvious things. That is...no tricks...no strategic plays...nothing fancy. Play straight-forward Poker against a weak player."

- Doyle Brunson (Super System, page 434)
 
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V

VegasGrinder

Guest
Michele, If we are talking freerolls, than a Bluff is bad. You will get called or reraised in a freeroll most the time. Freerolls online are not realy Poker...It is more of push your chips, play every hand and hope to be the lucky one. Basicaly Freeroll would be the same as the Can't Bluff a Bad Player.

I am talking about real poker where you put your real earned $$$$ at risk.

Freerolls are a waste of time anyways. They do not pay much especialy compared to the amount of time it takes to win one. A lot of work for little pay.

I beleave learning the techniques of others is extremely valuable. You may or may not use the Technique learned. But by knowing it, you can also be aware of it when being used against you. The more you study and learn from others, the better player you will become.

Yes, I have read both Super Systems aoung just about every other book out there.

Harringtons new book on NL Tourneys was a good read. The 2nd book was just released. Lookin forward to it.
 
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MicheleW

MicheleW

Rock Star
Vegas - I'm not questioning anything you said - just giving my opinion and those who agree ... agree, those who don't ... don't. No one is the authority on playing poker, otherwise there would be one person winning all the time. Many of the tips found on forums are from books and those writing the books will NEVER tell their real playing secrets - just give basics.

I'm sure you know ... the majority of members here play FREEROLLS and will be applying things they read here to that play. Also, many people love freerolls and enjoy playing them and want to win them! They wouldn't be so popular if people didn't enjoy them. I use them to practice - and if I get in the money, cool.

I think many would think your statement "freerolls are a waste of time anyways", would disagree, especially those offering them to members and seeing how many people want in them. They are VERY popular mainly because they are free. Freerolls are not easy to win, but fun to play so one should view them that way.

My comment about not following others' techniques was only to say ... play your own game. Many people like to copy pros or others and find out they are consistently losing. Like anything ... do your own thing - make it your own. There's lots of people here looking for the golden nugget of info to make them a winner.
 
T

teemoh

Guest
great post. but i disagree, there CAN be a right time to bluff with 72. Though rare, there are times when you can pick a spot and make a move with 72 and very easily take down a pot with 72. Whats effective about this move is showing the monster bluff to the table, it will totally throw them off. However getting caught making this move and losing is very very dangerous
 
J

josh724

Guest
i agree with everything about that except the 7-2 part.....bluffing with a 7-2 is just as strong as bluffing with an A-k that didn't hit, most likely your ace high is beat just as bad as your 7 high...so why not?
 
K

kardmania

Rock Star
Bluffing with a 7-2 is not the same as bluffing with an A-K that does not hit on the flop. The A-K has a decent probability of developing.

As far as developing your own style this is a valid point. however, any style that lacks flexibility and the ability to evolve is ultimately little more than "just style".

Frerolls are like playing the lottery and you do need luck to win. Internet poker eliminates most of the tells from the game and the ability of an artfull, forcefull player from using his personality to reinforce his plays.
 
V

VegasGrinder

Guest
You shouldn't be in a hand with 7,2 period. There is no starting hand weaker than 7,2.
Showing your Bluff is the same as getting called on it. You show all 9 players at the Table you hand.

1) They know you will Bluff. This will put you in a situation of having a Show Down for you to win any more Pots.
2) All 9 Players know you will play Trash. It will now be much more expensive to see a flop for you.
3) Experianced Players will remember next time you are at the same table. Most Internet players take notes.

I know you are thinking that's ok, I catch a Monster than they think I am Bluffing and take down a Big Pot. Sounds Great but 1 Big Pot isn't going to give you enough Profit to make it worth while.

What is that old saying..You can Shear a Lamb a Thousand Times but you can only eat Lamb Chops Once.
 
K

kardmania

Rock Star
Just to keep the facts straight I played against the 7-2 with a pairs of 7's and was outdrawn.
 
F

fumblessr

Guest
MicheleW said:
Vegas - I'm not questioning anything you said - just giving my opinion and those who agree ... agree, those who don't ... don't. No one is the authority on playing poker, otherwise there would be one person winning all the time. Many of the tips found on forums are from books and those writing the books will NEVER tell their real playing secrets - just give basics.

I'm sure you know ... the majority of members here play FREEROLLS and will be applying things they read here to that play. Also, many people love freerolls and enjoy playing them and want to win them! They wouldn't be so popular if people didn't enjoy them. I use them to practice - and if I get in the money, cool.

I think many would think your statement "freerolls are a waste of time anyways", would disagree, especially those offering them to members and seeing how many people want in them. They are VERY popular mainly because they are free. Freerolls are not easy to win, but fun to play so one should view them that way.

My comment about not following others' techniques was only to say ... play your own game. Many people like to copy pros or others and find out they are consistently losing. Like anything ... do your own thing - make it your own. There's lots of people here looking for the golden nugget of info to make them a winner.
Very nice post Michele... that's a good idea about using freerolls just to practice
 
Crippler450

Crippler450

Guest
VegasGrinder said:
Freerolls are a waste of time anyways. They do not pay much especialy compared to the amount of time it takes to win one. A lot of work for little pay.
I completely disagree

1) they are GREAT practice
2) they have no risk
3) if you are a good poker player, you can do very well in freerolls (i've won over a hundred bucks in them lately, maybe you need to be more patient)

kardmania said:
Frerolls are like playing the lottery and you do need luck to win. Internet poker eliminates most of the tells from the game and the ability of an artfull, forcefull player from using his personality to reinforce his plays.
I dont recall seeing the same person win the lottery many times in a row...though the players with skill can do well in freerolls on a consistent basis. If you learn how to play patiently and skillfully you can do great in freerolls
 
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K

kardmania

Rock Star
I suppose I need to clarify my thoughts. I never said that frerolls are a waste of time. I agree with most of Michelle's thoughts on the subject of the virtues of frerolls.

However, I feel that there is a difference between real money play with 8 or 10 players, real money tournaments live, real money tournaments on the internet, and frerolls. Each of these venues are unique and require different strategy, temperment, and expectations.

It is my firm conviction that strong player entered in 50 different frerolls will outperform the weaker player. However, when you reduce the trial number you also reduce the advantage of the stronger player. When you reduce the trial number to a single event I must stick with my lottery analogy.
 
MicheleW

MicheleW

Rock Star
What's so good about freerolls for beginners is this:

1. They get to practice and learn the game free.
2. They know what its like to lose and learn to handle the losses.
3. They know what its like to win hands and get that great feeling.
4. They learn something every time they WIN or LOSE.
5. When they bust out - they REALLY learn something and hopefully apply their bad play or bad beat to their next game.

Freerolls are a great learning experience for beginners .... and for every one.

I know when I bust out, I have learned a lesson whether it be that I should have bet bigger at the flop or possibly not have stayed in the hand as long as I did - or maybe do as my gut told me next time LOL. I use everything I learn in freerolls for real money play and tournaments.

Plus, freerolls are just plain fun! (although they can be frustrating too! :D)
 
V

VegasGrinder

Guest
Michele, from your responses the read on you I have is

You like to play Sit-N-Gos (Between $1-$5)

Tend to Push Allin Preflop with Pocket Face Cards
 
diabloblanco

diabloblanco

Guest
I think your read on Michele may be not so spot-on. While I tend to agree with you that freerolls are working for little or no pay, I certainly do not look down my nose at those who like to play in them. I look at gambling of any sort as a job in a sense. Why would I do it for minimum-wage, when I can make 5,6, or 10 times that? However, some people don't play cards or gamble like I do and for them it is more a hobby. For me its the action, and in a freroll it just isn't there.

Sorry if that went too far off-topic.
 
V

VegasGrinder

Guest
I'm not looking down on anyone.

I would be willing to bet my read is right on the money.
 
MicheleW

MicheleW

Rock Star
Hi Grinder - Which response is that? the one above your post? If so, I wasn't even talking about me at all, just my observations as to why beginners should or do play freerolls. I don't really enjoy freerolls but play to practice difference techniques since they are free.

You got me right tho on Sit n Gos. I do enjoy playing them, but only 1 or 2 tables. I don't like the 45 players ones. Don't like playing $1 anything - so $5 minimum tables.

BUT ... you are not right on my pushing all-in preflop - never do it with anything.

But, who knows ... maybe I might give it a try! LOL :D
 
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