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Makwa
Undesirable Predator
Silver Level
AG called Roy and his amanuensis (pkrplyr) out on points of proposition that have since been elucidated upon, and during which a huge discussion ensued, which is tremendously informative on countless levels.
I have some pork hocks with potatoes here, please pass the plate and mustard, and turn off the lights on your way out.
I have some pork hocks with potatoes here, please pass the plate and mustard, and turn off the lights on your way out.
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Tammy
Can I help you?
Administrator
I've deleted a few nonsense posts here at the tail end. Disagreements aside, this thread has sparked a decent enough discussion. I would hate for any inflammatory comments to ruin that. There have been enough misunderstandings in this thread. Let's keep the civil debate going and leave the nasty out.
Stick66
Legend
Silver Level
I respect poker pros who have tons of experience in the poker world and have even had books and articles published. I also think that questioning their statements is perfectly fine and makes for an interesting forum. But when the word "sloppy" is used twice about his writing and there is an insinuation that he takes less time to write here because he doesn't get paid for it here, those comments could appear to be disrespectful to some folks even though they weren't meant that way.
Let's question away, but be nice about it in a "CC" kind of way.
Let's question away, but be nice about it in a "CC" kind of way.
twizzybop
Legend
Silver Level
Sounds like a plan MrSticker, my only question would be that of low limits compared to higher limits, especially in limit hold-em. In my experience the lower limits you get alot more flush chasers not to mention straight draw chasers compared to those of higher limit hold-em. To paint the lower limit players with that of the higher limits is using a wide brush.
Yet though I have to agree with others of making the chasers especially the ones who chase runner runner, it does make alot of sense for someone to bet on the flop instead of giving them a free card and betting after the turn, especially when it is constantly a 2:1 pot bet.
Yet though I have to agree with others of making the chasers especially the ones who chase runner runner, it does make alot of sense for someone to bet on the flop instead of giving them a free card and betting after the turn, especially when it is constantly a 2:1 pot bet.
Tammy
Can I help you?
Administrator
Couldn't of said it better, Stick. Thanks.I respect poker pros who have tons of experience in the poker world and have even had books and articles published. I also think that questioning their statements is perfectly fine and makes for an interesting forum. But when the word "sloppy" is used twice about his writing and there is an insinuation that he takes less time to write here because he doesn't get paid for it here, those comments could appear to be disrespectful to some folks even though they weren't meant that way.
Let's question away, but be nice about it in a "CC" kind of way.
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
I've just reread this entire thread from start to finish, again! It gets better and better despite the hijacks, and detours.
For Roy, my suggestion is to edit and re-edit a few more times till the clarity satisfies you. When you write for a magazine, you get the benefit of an editor who will usually (if they are any good) get that clarity with your help, even if it is someone else doing the typing.
For Jane, my suggestions are to help anyone you type for edit it till you can understand it, and they are happy with that clarity. This is not easy. In this case Roy's inherent poker knowledge is probably way over most of our heads, and sussing out his intent is of great importance to us. I've tried to get Mother-in-Law interested in the computer/internet and I failed, so your task is doubly hard, and many of us understand.
For the rest of us, well, many would not know who Roy is, and if the OP was done by joeblows we would probably have been as harsh as we have shown here. But with help from JQ and any other mod with an edit pencil, we weren't that harsh, we were inquisitive, and for the most part civil.
For my part, re-reading the op still suggests to me that the point is valid, but probably MORE valid in NL, than in any limit game where you just can't get the fish to fold their draws.
suss play_w2("S0924800") (s
s)tr.v. sussed, suss·ing, suss·es Slang 1. To infer or discover; figure out: "I think I'm good at sussing out what's going on" Ry Cooder.
2. To size up; study: "Suss out the designers in whom you are interested" Lucia van der Post.
For Roy, my suggestion is to edit and re-edit a few more times till the clarity satisfies you. When you write for a magazine, you get the benefit of an editor who will usually (if they are any good) get that clarity with your help, even if it is someone else doing the typing.
For Jane, my suggestions are to help anyone you type for edit it till you can understand it, and they are happy with that clarity. This is not easy. In this case Roy's inherent poker knowledge is probably way over most of our heads, and sussing out his intent is of great importance to us. I've tried to get Mother-in-Law interested in the computer/internet and I failed, so your task is doubly hard, and many of us understand.
For the rest of us, well, many would not know who Roy is, and if the OP was done by joeblows we would probably have been as harsh as we have shown here. But with help from JQ and any other mod with an edit pencil, we weren't that harsh, we were inquisitive, and for the most part civil.
For my part, re-reading the op still suggests to me that the point is valid, but probably MORE valid in NL, than in any limit game where you just can't get the fish to fold their draws.
suss play_w2("S0924800") (s
2. To size up; study: "Suss out the designers in whom you are interested" Lucia van der Post.
aliengenius
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
I respect poker pros who have tons of experience in the poker world and have even had books and articles published. I also think that questioning their statements is perfectly fine and makes for an interesting forum. But when the word "sloppy" is used twice about his writing and there is an insinuation that he takes less time to write here because he doesn't get paid for it here, those comments could appear to be disrespectful to some folks even though they weren't meant that way.
Let's question away, but be nice about it in a "CC" kind of way.
I actually picked the word "sloppy" because I thought it was fairly kind in fact. I'm sorry if it was misinterpreted: I wanted it to mean 'the opposite of rigorous' (in reference to the points laid out in the article).
I don't think there's any question that this was not the most well reasoned/articulated argument. Some of the points have been subsequently clarified.
I hope Roy will stick around, and instead of taking any offense, actually be happy that civil debate and challenges (even of established pros) occur here on cardschat.
pkrplr4116
Legend
Silver Level
Thank you, KMC, Jay, Makwa, Cowboy, Mr. Sticker, DJ and everyone else who wasn't trying to be nasty. That's what I objected to. I now want to say something that anyone who has ever sat at a poker table wih jason (AG) can testify is the truth. "Jason, I love you, Hon, and I know you are aware that you spend every hand at the live poker tabler spouting percentages and telling folks what the odds are if they call. In short, you sit at the table as a 'know-it-all' and more than once when I've been with you, here, you felt you'd best 'get out of Dodge'-the poker room-because someone was going to thrash you for being a smart aleck-know it all." I know why you do it.... but it sure does grate on every one's nerves in a live game. Sadly, you're becoming the guy you are at the live poker tables, right here, at CC. I don't want to see you become that smart aleck know-it-all, here, at CC. It's awfully lonely when you're the only one who knows everything, especially when you make sure you're nasty to folks as a result of your own misinterpretation of what was said. Don't do this to yourself, my friend, you'll be miserable. I know you like pepople, but you're turning those of us who want to still love you, away from you.
Stick66
Legend
Silver Level
Really, he does that?
Dude, AG, you could killed doing that. Tilting someone like that live could get you some tilt upside your head, especially with drunk people.
I
Inscore77
Legend
Silver Level
It would sort of be funnyReally, he does that?
Dude, AG, you could killed doing that. Tilting someone like that live could get you some tilt upside your head, especially with drunk people.
kidkvno1
Sarah's Pet
Bronze Level
nuff saidI respect poker pros who have tons of experience in the poker world and have even had books and articles published. I also think that questioning their statements is perfectly fine and makes for an interesting forum. But when the word "sloppy" is used twice about his writing and there is an insinuation that he takes less time to write here because he doesn't get paid for it here, those comments could appear to be disrespectful to some folks even though they weren't meant that way.
Let's question away, but be nice about it in a "CC" kind of way.
Thanks Roy,
It is not every day i meat someone as Roy West. We could all use his in site it to poker..
Thanks pkrklr4116
aliengenius
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
You are WAY out of line making a public attack on me like this.
I don't know what specific incident you are remembering, and while it's true that we played a bunch of drunken poker in Vegas and I may have spouted off on occasion, it is hardly the case that that I spend "every hand" being a smart aleck, nor is true that I tell people what the percentages are to call during play. I'm sorry that you mistook any of my actions as common/usual live play behavior-- I don't normally drink during play, nor do I normally play limit poker, nor do normally help/coach friends, etc., etc.
If you want to criticize me personally please do it in private. If you want to argue with my opinion, or with my logic/reasoning, or with my understanding of poker concepts, then that's fine.
My cardschat demeanor has never really changed: I am going argue with posts here that I don't think are accurate or that need clarification, and I don't care who is making them.
I already stated that I wasn't trying to be "nasty" and tried to explain/clairy my original post, since it was obviously misinterpreted by some.
I don't consider myself to be even close to the best player on this forum, or the most knowledgable. But I do know that statements in the OP like "betting enough to make them fold" and "hitting them over the head with a hammer to get them to fold" can easily be misinterpreted to mean that we want our opponent to fold in situations like this. I only wanted to clarify that protecting your hand means making this bet so that they are making a mistake (and thus, we are making money) when/if they call, NOT that the desired outcome is a fold.
As you can see by some of the subsequent posts, this is a fundamental poker concept that many simply do not understand: you make your money when your opponents make mistakes. Betting here gives them the opportunity to make the mistake of calling. Betting so much that even the loosest of opponents will fold is "forcing your opponent to play correctly" and is likely not the highest +ev play. That being said, there is an argument in tournaments that removing all risk by getting a fold at the expense of +chipEV might at times have a place.
^^this is the sort of discussion my reply to the OP was supposed to engender, not a "boo hoo you were mean" response.
Debi
Forum Admin
Administrator
When I first read this thread and there was less than a page of responses I cringed. Not because Roy's strategy was being debated - but because of some of the poor choice of words and the tone of some of the responses. He deserves more respect than he has received in this thread.
I am sure he would have been thrilled to have a good 3 page discussion as a result of his post - with various opinions being debated back and forth, including his own. He isn't who he is today and didn't accomplish all he has accomplished because he has avoided debating poker strategy all of his life.
I doubt he will be back - but if he is I hope that he will be treated with the respect that he deserves.
I am sure he would have been thrilled to have a good 3 page discussion as a result of his post - with various opinions being debated back and forth, including his own. He isn't who he is today and didn't accomplish all he has accomplished because he has avoided debating poker strategy all of his life.
I doubt he will be back - but if he is I hope that he will be treated with the respect that he deserves.
c9h13no3
Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Woah woah woah...
1) Roy gets all the respect he wants. I highly admire the articles he's written for card player, and his stud book ain't bad either.
2) Its a completely different thing to respect a person, yet criticize their post. And you can do both at the same time. If Jesus came down from heaven, and then told me that you make money playing poker long-term by shoving all in with 27os, I would question his opinion while giving him hella respect.
3) I highly doubt anyone who said Roy's reasoning was incorrect meant any disrespect. IMO, its been one of the more civil disagreements we've had until about the 2nd page of the thread.
Basically, being around the internet a long time, I've realized how easy it is for people to take offense to what others are saying because they don't get to see body language, tone, ect. And I think some people have *really* blown out of proportion what others intended & meant in their posts.
This thread has been requested to be locked at least twice, and I think it should be. At this point, its just 2 different parties slinging mud at each other (while other useless posters implore them to be happy go lucky).
Anyways, the bottom line here is this:
A) We had a good discussion about Roy's post.
B) Its over.
C) Now we're just trying to assign blame for who's been the most disrespectful.
If I were a mod, this would be locked. Let the parties who feel disrespected sort it out in PM's.
Jagsti
I'm sweet enough!
Silver Level
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