Roy West's Poker Insight-Post Flop Play

[c9h13no3]

Not to mention that since there are 2 spades on board, its less likely he has two as well... so its not exactly 25%

 

[pkrplr4116]

CONGRATULATIONS!
You guys win. There will be no more poker strategy from me and from me helping any pro I know contribute to this site. If the older pros want to contribute without me pushing them, it's on them. I will no longer encourage them to do so. I will no longer encourage the other pros I know, to join.

 

[thejuanupsman]

Seriously? I didn't expect an "I'll take my ball and go home" response to what seems to be legitimate questions and discussion. The best teacher I ever knew (Joseph Norio Uemura) once said to me that "All good teachers want their students to question and doubt what they are being taught." When I did some teaching of my own I always took that to heart and I still believe it to be true.

 

[aliengenius]

CONGRATULATIONS!
You guys win. There will be no more poker strategy from me and from me helping any pro I know contribute to this site. If the older pros want to contribute without me pushing them, it's on them. I will no longer encourage them to do so. I will no longer encourage the other pros I know, to join.

Jane,

This is a bit of an extreme response, imo.

If RW can get a point across in a magazine he can surely get it across on a forum, even if it takes some effort and /or time due to technological concerns.

No one is going to get a pass here saying things that are that sloppy, especially a professional player known to be an articulate writer.

 

[Inscore77]

CONGRATULATIONS!
You guys win. There will be no more poker strategy from me and from me helping any pro I know contribute to this site. If the older pros want to contribute without me pushing them, it's on them. I will no longer encourage them to do so. I will no longer encourage the other pros I know, to join.

Chillax imo

This forum is for discussion, just because he is a pro does not mean spots can not be pointed out that have error to them. It's just like any other strategy somebody posts, and you dont see this sort of response

 

[KingCurtis]

hmmm well this is interesting. I think that there is a lot going on that ppl are confused about, like the limit, nl thing. We are def not trying to "win" at anything...we are here to "learn" and like zach who is asking questions, especially asking a pro is good, not bad....so this is good imo

 

[S93]

CONGRATULATIONS!
You guys win. There will be no more poker strategy from me and from me helping any pro I know contribute to this site. If the older pros want to contribute without me pushing them, it's on them. I will no longer encourage them to do so. I will no longer encourage the other pros I know, to join.

I really dont get this post pkr.
Zach was simply asking for clarifacation on something he wasnt sure on in the post,whats wrong with that?
This is a learning forum and u learn by asking questions.

Also whats wrong with people disagreeing?

Any way i think your misunderstanding what Zach,AG and C9 whanted to know,they simply whanted more info from a well established and respected pro author.

Hope you dont stick with the no more pro threads because i was looking forward to reading some of Roy´s posts .

 

[pkrplr4116]

Here it is from my point of view. I asked in advance if Nick wanted me to try to get Roy to join. He said "Sure." Roy finally got a computer. He knows nothing about computers and the minute I get him online I make him make a beeline to CC. Then, I wonder how best to get him comfy here...the poker strategy section seemed like it would have been a good jumping off place where he'd feel at ease. He made an error and I typed it out. Try scrolling down to the replies to see if you all can see the difference between nastiness and discussion. I can and many of the replies weren't discusion, but 'in-your' face coments. I had no intenion of embarrassing the man and he surely didn't want to be embarrassed. So I feel at fault for dragging him in to this. Just because I won't encourage him to post in the startegy section, doesn't mean he won't, on his own. Just cuz I won't put another pro thru this doesn't mean I'm taking my marbles and going home I'm NOT the pro. I am an amatuer. I suck at math and I'm not ashamed to admit it. But give the poor man some respect. Many of you did, but some of you didn't. When you're 74, as he is, PLMK how you'd feel? I know I dragged a 74 year old pro here to try to help; my fault and I won't do it again. I learned my lesson. I'll let the real online pros here on CC guide those who who want to learn. I had no business in the strategy section and will stick to the players lounge where I've been till I got Roy on here. I seem to have gotten in a whole less trouble over there. Good luck in your professional poker careers, guys. I know my place and it isn't as the know-it-all of the site.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

OK.. I started to post here earlier, and took it back to think more about it.

I think it's cool that Roy wants to post.

But I think AG was good to point out the problems with the post.

Forums in general can have the tendency of being somewhat hostile seeming. This is ESPECIALLY true for a net-newbie. POKER forums in particular will be filled with aggressive competitive types. It's a wonder that some of the computers that host some poker forums don't just melt.

That said, one reason I personally joined CC was for the fact that it seemed to have one of the friendliest feels of all the poker forums.

I am grateful for smart folks like AG and so many others who can help keep a discussion like this in the right zone.

And I also hope that we don't completely scare away seasoned pros who's input is amazingly valuable.

It's a different world here on the net. Communication is different and so is poker.

Just my .02(nl),
cAPS

 

[pkrplr4116]

Thanks, Caps, that was a nice way to put it. I appreciate your kind words.

 

[ph_il]

I think you are taking this completely the wrong way, PKR.

While I appreciate Roy taking the time to post, I have agree with AG, Zach, and C9 pointed out earlier. I dont think they or anyone else means any disrespect when they make minor correct or question the OP, it just shows that we are a thinking forum. I actually like the fact that members here are willing to point certain things out and bring this thread into discussion instead of just sitting back and taking it because a pro wrote it. This is a forum, people are going to disagree and discussions will happen. That's a good thing.

One thing about CC is its members never mean disrespect to each other, so don't take it as so. We offer a lot of constructive criticism as a forum and we're not afraid to question or correct or discuss anything, but I think thats a very good thing.

 

[Makwa]

well pkr, you and Roy sure took some shots here, but you got the worst because u r in the middle. Emotionally, I'm sure it feels terrible.

But!

What you are doing to drag Roy into cyberspace is wonderful. I work a lot with Mohawk elders up here, and I've seen some amazing transformations as people in their 60s to 80s finally get going on computers. They all said they didn't want to, would never try the 'devil's machine' etc... But basically they were scared, and watching their kids and grandkids disappear into a territory (cyberspace) that they couldn't join.

I am now in regular communication with grandmothers, via skype, email, etc... They are now delighted with the fact that they can use a digital camera, upload pics and send them, for instance (the idea of attachments took a long time to learn). They are now writing their own stuff, communicating with buddies in Florida, etc. The first thing they do in the morning now is turn on their computer -- that machine in the corner that had seemed doomed to gather dust.

So you are doing a good thing for sure. If Roy decides to persevere now that you dragged him over here, and I think he will, he (and we) will thank you when we see his skills in cyberspace develop.

So cheer up and go get an ice cream, get one for Roy too OK?.

 

[Makwa]

BTW I know you guys enjoy the poker rooms down there, but I'm sure you and Roy know that the vast majority of poker players are now online, and for most (including me) there are no local casinos, so I firmly believe the future of poker is online.
Don't worry, there will always be a Vegas and a wsop or equivalent, home games and bar tourneys... but cyberspace is where it's happening big time right now, and I love it here!!

 

[Cowboy8112]

The point is that if they have a flush draw (especially backdoor) and you already made your hand, you don't want the chaser folding...

I disagree, I suck out on the river has been the source of many an ulcer. You want the chaser to fold up shop and go home. A pot won on the turn is much better than one that has been lost on the river.

 

[Makwa]

I disagree, I suck out on the river has been the source of many an ulcer. You want the chaser to fold up shop and go home. A pot won on the turn is much better than one that has been lost on the river.

While I agree with your sentiment cowboy, zach and others are right -- in the long run, the chasers will build your bankroll, and peeps chasing with backdoor draws will shower you with chips in the long run.
Short term, sure it feels good yr As didn't get cracked when he folds, or feels awful when he sucks out on your 'best' hand, but your ulcers will thank you if you don't look at the hand and the suckout, and look to the big picture (which is a whole lifetime of poker).

 

[pkrplr4116]

Thanks you so much! I did feel EXACTLY LIKE THAT!

well pkr, you and Roy sure took some shots here, but you got the worst because u r in the middle. Emotionally, I'm sure it feels terrible.

But!

What you are doing to drag Roy into cyberspace is wonderful. I work a lot with Mohawk elders up here, and I've seen some amazing transformations as people in their 60s to 80s finally get going on computers. They all said they didn't want to, would never try the 'devil's machine' etc... But basically they were scared, and watching their kids and grandkids disappear into a territory (cyberspace) that they couldn't join.

 

[zachvac]

CONGRATULATIONS!
You guys win. There will be no more poker strategy from me and from me helping any pro I know contribute to this site. If the older pros want to contribute without me pushing them, it's on them. I will no longer encourage them to do so. I will no longer encourage the other pros I know, to join.

umm, so can I get this straight? You want these pros to join a poker forum, and just have it as a medium to post articles? You don't want anyone to give feedback, ask questions, or attempt to understand the concepts better? CC is aimed at people trying to get better, and I think we all try to do it. That doesn't come from just seeing articles and copying what they say to do. It comes from understanding the concepts behind them and being able to know when and where to apply them correctly. I'm sorry but I don't see how anyone could possibly do that just given the OP. So we asked a few questions, it is a forum after all is it not? So you can imagine the surprise when you clarify that he was talking about limit, when in his OP he specifically said no limit and mentioned bet sizing. We ask about that and then get this?

What you do is your business but DO NOT attempt to pin this on myself and others who attempted to help understand the post better. It seems others did and I myself attempted to be completely respectful in the posts simply asking for a clarification and if he could explain some of what he meant. This is a poker forum, not a medium for articles to be posted and blindly accepted with no responsibility on the OP to explain what he meant. If Roy wanted to post this piece and not field any questions about it perhaps he should have submitted it to Cardplayer.

 

[zachvac]

I disagree, I suck out on the river has been the source of many an ulcer. You want the chaser to fold up shop and go home. A pot won on the turn is much better than one that has been lost on the river.

So can you explain to me where you make your money in poker if it's not from mistakes by your opponent? Last I checked we aim to win money in poker, not minimize ulcers .

 

[Dwilius]

I have to say I see Jane's concern, some of the response was a bit harsh.
Naturally posts are going to be open to questions and debate, but more tact would have been nice. Not the smoothest introduction to someone new to the forum that we would love to have around.

I don't even see an error in the OP...

Sorry, but your opponent isn't going to pick up a flush draw 75% of the time on the turn.

That's not what was said, (nearly) 75% of the time a flushdraw will be possible on the turn even when flop comes rainbow.

Seventy Five percent of the time, the turn card will quite possible give the 'ol flush chasers the flush draw they've been looking for.

Of course, it depends on how many players are in the hand as to how possible. Agreed, we can't be too worried about backdoor flushdraws but I'm not sure if Roy meant betting big on the flop or on the turn. I would be interested in more specifics...hope we get the chance to hear more.

 

[Makwa]

This is a poker forum, not a medium for articles to be posted and blindly accepted with no responsibility on the OP to explain what he meant. If Roy wanted to post this piece and not field any questions about it perhaps he should have submitted it to Cardplayer.

Chillax bro. I've been reading the Cardplayer articles (there are a lot!), each one has some valuable insights into limit play and, more important, winning attitude. At the end of each piece is a box for comments, suggestions, feedback etc., and I'm sure Roy fields a ton of questions at Cardplayer.

 

[Cowboy8112]

So can you explain to me where you make your money in poker if it's not from mistakes by your opponent? Last I checked we aim to win money in poker, not minimize ulcers .

Money not lost spends as well as money won. If I am understanding this right, your suggesting that we allow chasers to stay in the hand and see if they can hit!!?, Thats just bad poker IMO. Taking a small pot is AWAYS better than loosing a big one.

 

[rileyl]

No what zach is saying is that the goal of playing poker is too have your opponents play incorrectly(make mistakes). By chasing the flush draw with improper pot/implied odds your opponent is making a mistake which over the long run will make us money.

 

[Cowboy8112]

No what zach is saying is that the goal of playing poker is too have your opponents play incorrectly(make mistakes). By chasing the flush draw with improper pot/implied odds your opponent is making a mistake which over the long run will make us money.

What he said was "you don't want the chaser folding", And I disagree with that. You don't want someone in a hand that could out draw you. Unless you like posting in the bad beat and vent threads

 

[rileyl]

Yes you don't want the chaser folding if he is not getting the proper odds to call you. Let me put it to you in a simple way.

If i was to offer you 2:1 odds on the flip of a coin would you take the bet?

You would be stupid not to because over the long run you will make money. You may lose the first 5 flips but as the number of coin flips approaches infinity your amount of money won will equal your mathematical expectation.

So now why would you want your opponent to fold when he is taking the "worst of it" on this wager. The logic makes no sense.

 

[Cowboy8112]

Yes you don't want the chaser folding if he is not getting the proper odds to call you. Let me put it to you in a simple way.

If i was to offer you 2:1 odds on the flip of a coin would you take the bet?

You would be stupid not to because over the long run you will make money. You may lose the first 5 flips but as the number of coin flips approaches infinity your amount of money won will equal your mathematical expectation.

So now why would you want your opponent to fold when he is taking the "worst of it" on this wager. The logic makes no sense.

Your argument is sound, just on the wrong side. If the pot has 500 in it, and you are sitting with AcAs and the board has 3d Qd 8s and the turn is 10d, you do not want to bet 100 and let him get those kind of odds to call. You bet the pot or more, make him pay or fold. you be 50, 100 or 150 he is going to call. and you are risking a 500 chip pot to try to get another 100? where are the odds in that?