The river check/call. Important limit hold'em tactic

F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
This particular example was from a 6-max table, which accentuates it, but the principle is the same even at a full table:

I have 10-8o in the big blind. Very loose and somewhat passive player limps from MP, and hyperaggressive player raises from the button. I call. Loose player calls.

Flop comes 10-5-2 rainbow.

I check with the intention of checkraising the button (whom I'm sure will bet). Limper checks. Button bets. I raise. Limper folds. Button calls.

Turn is a 4.

I bet. Button calls.

River is an ace.

I check with the intention of calling a bet.

Why do I do that?
 
titans4ever

titans4ever

Legend
Joined
Apr 20, 2005
Total posts
1,238
it removes the reraise and you can see his cards for one bet?

Hope I am close
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend
Joined
Jan 14, 2006
Total posts
4,193
that and your 10 high has equity to call one check-call, but not to bet-call?
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
You're both on the right track, but need to take the line of thinking a bit further. Come up with some different scenarios.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
Joined
May 25, 2005
Total posts
5,587
If you bet, he'll only call (or raise) if he's got a better hand, so it's a waste of a bet.

If you check and he bets, you're more than likely beat but you've got pot odds to call.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
robwhufc said:
If you bet, he'll only call (or raise) if he's got a better hand, so it's a waste of a bet.

If you check and he bets, you're more than likely beat but you've got pot odds to call.
Yes and yes!

Now, there's also another possibility that we must not forget: He's hyperaggressive, and he could see my river check as a sign of weakness, and bet with air to try to force me out, in which case I'll gain a bet from a hand that would otherwise have folded if I had bet out myself.

It's possible he'll check behind a hand like K5, that he would have called with, but within his range that he'd raise with preflop (which is big, but not infinite) there are very few hands that he'd call with that I'd beat.

When I'm behind, I save a bet by check/calling. When I'm ahead, I sometimes (maybe even often, depending on the player) manage to convince him to bluff or bet a weaker hand.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Total posts
2,380
You forgot to add in that the Hyper aggresive player could be holding which must be taken into consideration of A,10 A,J, A,Q, A,K Not to mention any high pocket pair from 10's- A's. Then for all you know he could be smooth calling you all the way down with the higher pocket pair.

His holding can be also AX and that X could have been a 10,5, or a 2.
Just because he is hyper aggresive we must know that he knows something about the game.

Since he is Hyper Agressive I would say that you haven't seen many of his hands cause people have been folding to his hands. His range of hands at this point can and will be astronomical at this point in time.Then you are hoping that your weak kicker stands up.

You were beat to start with, why you call with a very marginal hand is behond me even if you know that it may be a steal. Why chance on beating this guy with a marginal hand when you would be much better off having a hand to beat him. By calling his raise, you are falling into his style of play instead of your own style. Then not to mention you become 1st to act and you are way out of position.

Definatly a hand that you shouldn't be in to begin with. However a check/call is your best bet because you don't need to be risking any more money on a marginal hand while yet there is a possibility you still have the best hand going.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
If you routinely fold 10-8o in the BB when a very aggressive player tries to isolate the weak limper in 6-max, you're giving up a lot of profit. It's close, but with reads on the other players, it's most definitely +EV to call here.

And a hyperaggressive player does not smoothcall when you play shorthanded.

The fact that I was first to act is not as important as the fact that I had the raiser to my right. I knew Mr. Passive would check to him on the flop, leaving me lots of openings for getting tricky on the flop.

His hand is not A-10. An aggressive player does not call down with TPTK.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend
Joined
Jan 14, 2006
Total posts
4,193
"His hand is not A-10. An aggressive player does not call down with TPTK."

exactly. they won't stop betting even if they flop a straight flush.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Total posts
2,380
His hand is not A-10. An aggressive player does not call down with TPTK

He does if #1 you have fired back at him and #2 The Smooth Calling Tactic.
Have you labeled all Hyper Aggresive people as stupid players who also don't know how to play??

A hyper aggresive player probably knows more then 1 strategy in general. Just like any one of us also know more then 1 strategy in general.

Are you really risking to gamble that this is all the guy/gal knows how to do is play any 2 cards aggresively while hoping that those 2 cards are rubbish.
Bad mistake playing a very marginal hand against a loose maniac.

This hand shouldn't be happening in the 1st place against a player of this caliber.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
twizzybop said:
He does if #1 you have fired back at him and #2 The Smooth Calling Tactic.
Smooth calling is not viable tactic in shorthanded play. And me firing back at him means I represent exactly what I have: Top pair.

Have you labeled all Hyper Aggresive people as stupid players who also don't know how to play??
When I say hyper aggressive, what do you think that means in terms of which hands he'll raise from the button in a 6-max game with a lone limper in so far?

A hyper aggresive player probably knows more then 1 strategy in general. Just like any one of us also know more then 1 strategy in general.
Uh. Ok. Whatever he was doing in this hand after I checkraised him, it was no tactic - he was calling down.

Are you really risking to gamble that this is all the guy/gal knows how to do is play any 2 cards aggresively while hoping that those 2 cards are rubbish.
Not any two cards. But 30% of them, yes.

Bad mistake playing a very marginal hand against a loose maniac.
No, it's not a bad mistake. It could be argued that it's borderline, but as a general rule of thumb, unless I think my opponent has a very narrow range of raising hands, I do not fold 10-8 out of the big blind when the button raises.

This hand shouldn't be happening in the 1st place against a player of this caliber.
I wholeheartedly disagree. This is exactly the kind of player you want to play this hand against. A timid player is not going to pay you off when he misses the flop.

What range do you put him on here, anyway? Do you think he has anything?

No, he'll have A-10 here virtually never. A-10 with this flop in a shorthanded game against a player who's only represented top pair (or any pair, really) means he would 3-bet the flop (half the time) or raise the turn (the other half).

A player who likes to raise whenever he has something - and a lot of the times when he has nothing - is not a player who smooth calls with a hand like AA on this flop and turn. What's he doing - waiting to pop the river?

Before the river, this player does not have a better hand than me, or we would have heard from him. Even JT would have 3-bet this flop and likely raised the turn.

Protecting your blinds against an aggressive player raising the button is absolutely key in 6-max. I can see an argument for not taking this battle with T-8 preflop, but I absolutely cannot see an argument for not playing this hand postflop when you flop top pair.

This is more of a sidenote in blind protection in shorthanded though - the important street here was the river. The flop and the turn are about as standard as they come regardless opposition, and preflop is absolutely okay against the opponents I was up against. Although not likely, there's even a chance I had the best hand preflop.
 
F

Fish

Rock Star
Joined
Feb 5, 2006
Total posts
367
I agree with F Paulsson here.
Good explanation.
 
bubbasbestbabe

bubbasbestbabe

Suckout Queen
Joined
May 22, 2005
Total posts
10,637
Awards
1
Actually you are stating the way a hand should play out according to the "rules". But you are making a mistake in assuming that this player will play the way you assume he will. Taking into consideration of what you have, I myself playing a game like that would have love to have someone like you make that play on me.
If the player is hyperaggressive, he would not have called your raise unless he had a better underhand. You just set the pot up for him. Your check/raising the pot will just make it all the sweeter for his win.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
bubbasbestbabe said:
Actually you are stating the way a hand should play out according to the "rules". But you are making a mistake in assuming that this player will play the way you assume he will. Taking into consideration of what you have, I myself playing a game like that would have love to have someone like you make that play on me.
If the player is hyperaggressive, he would not have called your raise unless he had a better underhand. You just set the pot up for him. Your check/raising the pot will just make it all the sweeter for his win.
What street are you talking about? The flop?

What's an underhand?

Explain your thinking; I don't understand. Do you mean that I'm incorrect in saying that a hyperaggressive player who calls this turn has a worse hand?
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Total posts
2,380
Smooth calling is not viable tactic in shorthanded play. And me firing back at him means I represent exactly what I have: Top pair

Of course it is viable, you forgot 2 things which in this case makes it viable.
#1 You act 1st and #2 You are firing at him.
A higher pocket pair, trips, and A,10 would definatly make it Viable. You represented top pair with the 10. So keep on firing while going 1st to put money in his pocket. Any constant re-raising is going to make you suspectable to folding.

When I say hyper aggressive, what do you think that means in terms of which hands he'll raise from the button in a 6-max game with a lone limper in so far?
Means a variety of hands. Yet you are hoping it is going to be 9,2??

Not any two cards. But 30% of them, yes. Yet 70% of them will destroy your hand.

No, it's not a bad mistake. It could be argued that it's borderline, but as a general rule of thumb, unless I think my opponent has a very narrow range of raising hands, I do not fold 10-8 out of the big blind when the button raises
Reasons are previously mentioned with the recent addition of again you act 1st with a very marginal hand. You always need a good hand to come out of the blinds with while acting 1st, especially on pre-flop raise from the button who is a hyper aggresive player. A player like this you must have him betting into you, and not the other way around.

I wholeheartedly disagree. This is exactly the kind of player you want to play this hand against. A timid player is not going to pay you off when he misses the flop.
Yet for some reason this aggresive player isn't paying you off either. Again you want aggresive players betting into you, and not vice versa. You also want a good hand to extract as much money from the hyper aggresive player.
Yet there was no re-raises from him to do such a thing. That is why it is advised/guidlines to let the hyper-aggresive/meglo maniacs bet like mad with any 2 cards while you fold looking for the better starting hands.

What range do you put him on here, anyway? Do you think he has anything? I wouldn't be in this hand to play such a guessing game.
I am trying to win, not have my bankroll fluctuate on a guessing game.

No, he'll have A-10 here virtually never. A-10 with this flop in a shorthanded game against a player who's only represented top pair (or any pair, really) means he would 3-bet the flop (half the time) or raise the turn (the other half).
Not when he is Smooth Calling. You are betting into him, any raise and you may fold. So in essence he is making maximum profit by you betting into him.

A player who likes to raise whenever he has something - and a lot of the times when he has nothing - is not a player who smooth calls with a hand like AA on this flop and turn. What's he doing - waiting to pop the river?
Its a possibility, again you are betting into him. Acting last while one has a pretty strong hand is the way to go. You checked while acting 1st remember, so a bet would normally make a person fold especially acting 1st.

So normally a re-raise over your raise would put up a red flag. So why not just call on his part to eliminate the red flag if he knows he has the much stronger hand. While letting you continously bet into him.

Before the river, this player does not have a better hand than me, or we would have heard from him. Even JT would have 3-bet this flop and likely raised the turn.
You may have heard from him. I just told you why you may not hear from him. Why scare you away from putting any more money into the pot when you are constantly betting into him to start. Any re-raise from him will definatly put up a red flag. You represented a 10.. He stop representing a strong hand just by calling(yet a viable option of having a good hand while you bet into him).

Protecting your blinds against an aggressive player raising the button is absolutely key in 6-max. I can see an argument for not taking this battle with T-8 preflop, but I absolutely cannot see an argument for not playing this hand postflop when you flop top pair

Many players feel they must defend their blinds by calling all raises even with marginal hands. Don’t waste additional money on marginal hands

This is more of a sidenote in blind protection in shorthanded though - the important street here was the river. The flop and the turn are about as standard as they come regardless opposition, and preflop is absolutely okay against the opponents I was up against. Although not likely, there's even a chance I had the best hand preflop.
One doesn't have to defend thier blinds on marginal hands.
I won't disagree there is a chance you have best hand pre-flop but also a chance that you didn't.
 
bubbasbestbabe

bubbasbestbabe

Suckout Queen
Joined
May 22, 2005
Total posts
10,637
Awards
1
F Paulsson said:
What street are you talking about? The flop?

What's an underhand?

Explain your thinking; I don't understand. Do you mean that I'm incorrect in saying that a hyperaggressive player who calls this turn has a worse hand?

Yes I am talking about the first raise on the flop.

The underhand is my own lingo for the hand pre-flop.

I am saying that you are the player here who is making the amature move with the hand you have unless the player you are playing against is a total donk. If this was me and I had anything better than the 10"s I would let you hang yourself.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Total posts
12,422
Wow, I want all you naysayers at my table so I can steal yer blinds and bluff you off hands all day long. ;)
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Total posts
2,380
Wow, I want all you naysayers at my table so I can steal yer blinds and bluff you off hands all day long.

Awesome!.. Note: Dorkus is A Hyper Aggresive player. :)
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
twizzybop said:
Of course it is viable, you forgot 2 things which in this case makes it viable.
#1 You act 1st and #2 You are firing at him.
A higher pocket pair, trips, and A,10 would definatly make it Viable. You represented top pair with the 10. So keep on firing while going 1st to put money in his pocket. Any constant re-raising is going to make you suspectable to folding.
Smooth calling with A-10 is a horrible tactic here. Absolutely dreadful. He's vulnerable to so many different cards that may come that not raising with such a vulnerable hand is awful.

That said: Someone who smooth calls with marginal hands (a pair of 10s certainly qualifies) is not someone who fits the description "hyper aggressive."

Not any two cards. But 30% of them, yes.
Yet 70% of them will destroy your hand.
What? You must not have understood: He raises on average about 30% of his preflop hands. How many of those hands do you think have me beat right now?

Reasons are previously mentioned with the recent addition of again you act 1st with a very marginal hand. You always need a good hand to come out of the blinds with while acting 1st, especially on pre-flop raise from the button who is a hyper aggresive player. A player like this you must have him betting into you, and not the other way around.
Out of curiousity, presuming you somehow misclicked and called preflop, would you have folded when he bet on the flop? Would you have called? Would you have raised?

Let's examine the three options:

Folding. Out of the question. You have top pair, and even if that's not good enough, you're still likely to have 5 outs (to hit two pair or trips), and it's only a single bet in a 7 bet pot. You don't quite have the pot odds, but you definitely have the implied odds - and that's if you somehow know that you're beat right now.

Calling or raising. Better than folding, given your outs and the pot size. But raising has the added benefit of possibly driving out the weak limper in MP, and that's definitely something you want to do. He could call a single bet with a hand as weak as Q7, and you want that queen the hell out of your pot. Don't let him draw cheaply. This pot is reaching a size where it's worth fighting for, and your equity goes up a lot if you can drive out any hand that contains overcards to the board. It's possible that raising this flop will also drive out villain (although it's unlikely - he's borderline correct to call with most two overcards), but that shouldn't discourage you.

Yet for some reason this aggresive player isn't paying you off either. Again you want aggresive players betting into you, and not vice versa. You also want a good hand to extract as much money from the hyper aggresive player.
Oh, he's paying me off, alright. He called my raise on the flop, he called my bet on the turn, and now I check to him on the river to allow him to try to bluff me out of a pot. A passive player will check behind on this river with garbage. An aggressive player will jump at the sign of perceived weakness and try to steal it. Hence this thread.

Yet there was no re-raises from him to do such a thing. That is why it is advised/guidlines to let the hyper-aggresive/meglo maniacs bet like mad with any 2 cards while you fold looking for the better starting hands.
I could have checked the turn, and he would have bet. I could have checkraised him there, but that would have folded him out. Instead, I bet, and planning to check the river to induce a bluff. I can't do this with a passive player (because then betting the river would be better, but they would fold almost any hand that I can beat).

I wouldn't be in this hand to play such a guessing game.
I am trying to win, not have my bankroll fluctuate on a guessing game.
Then this may be something you need to work on. It's absolutely imperative that you try to put your opponent on a hand all the time, because that's the only way to improve your handreading.

Not when he is Smooth Calling. You are betting into him, any raise and you may fold. So in essence he is making maximum profit by you betting into him.
And risking to be outdrawn by Jx, if he has a pair of 10s with a better kicker than me. No, smooth calling with a marginal hand is NOT the way to go, and it is not the way of a hyperaggressive player. Calling and hoping to catch a bluff, on the other hand, is.

Its a possibility, again you are betting into him. Acting last while one has a pretty strong hand is the way to go. You checked while acting 1st remember, so a bet would normally make a person fold especially acting 1st.

So normally a re-raise over your raise would put up a red flag. So why not just call on his part to eliminate the red flag if he knows he has the much stronger hand. While letting you continously bet into him.
If you, in limit shorthanded poker, do not raise when you think you have the better hand, you're missing out on a lot of profit. If he thought I was just bluffing, this would be an okay way to play it. But why would he think that? If he believes me when I tell him I have a top pair, he also knows I'll be forced to call a raise from him. Not raising is terrible.

You may have heard from him. I just told you why you may not hear from him. Why scare you away from putting any more money into the pot when you are constantly betting into him to start. Any re-raise from him will definatly put up a red flag. You represented a 10.. He stop representing a strong hand just by calling(yet a viable option of having a good hand while you bet into him).
And again I have to ask: What does "hyper aggressive" describe to you?

Many players feel they must defend their blinds by calling all raises even with marginal hands. Don’t waste additional money on marginal hands
Don't give generalized advice that in no way takes into account who you're playing against. If a rock had raised, I would have folded. I've folded much stronger hands than this in the big blind.

One doesn't have to defend thier blinds on marginal hands.
I won't disagree there is a chance you have best hand pre-flop but also a chance that you didn't.
I don't have to have the best hand preflop to profitably call, though, I hope you realize that.

Now, here's the thing. With skilled enough opponents, you won't get the privilege of waiting for monster hands that you can safely raise. They will outplay you if you do this, because you won't get paid enough when you do get them, and you will be forced to pay too much in blinds in between. Learning to play marginal hands well is difficult, but absolutely necessary when playing tougher competition. It's not essential at 2/4 (although there's a noticeable difference between 1/2 and 2/4 - there are actually internet professionals starting at the 2/4 limits), but it definitely puts more money in your pocket.

BBB:
bubbasbestbabe said:
I am saying that you are the player here who is making the amature move with the hand you have unless the player you are playing against is a total donk. If this was me and I had anything better than the 10"s I would let you hang yourself.
When you say "let me hang myself," do you mean the same "smooth calling" that Twizzy is talking about? If so, what range of hands would you be calling down with here? There are very few hands that are not extremely vulnerable, and failing to raise to protect all but those hands is a huge mistake (that you shouldn't be making).

I said it once, but I'll say it again: It's vital that you try to put villain on a hand here. Playing the way I did is obviously correct if he has a worse hand than me exactly 50% of the time (as there is some dead money generated by the guy in MP, I would show some profit from that).

Do you think he has a better hand than me more than 50% of the time? How many percent of the hands that he'll raise with preflop have me beat on this flop?
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Total posts
12,422
twizzybop said:
Yet for some reason this aggresive player isn't paying you off either. Again you want aggresive players betting into you, and not vice versa.

Yeah, being a calling station is by far the best way to play against overaggro players.

When's yer book coming out twizzy? ;)

(I'd say more, but FP has everything bar sarcastic remarks covered here, so I'll just cover that)
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend
Joined
Jan 14, 2006
Total posts
4,193
sorry but i agree with fpaul. only hand id fear him having is a-3.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend
Joined
Jan 14, 2006
Total posts
4,193
"I am saying that you are the player here who is making the amature move with the hand you have unless the player you are playing against is a total donk. If this was me and I had anything better than the 10"s I would let you hang yourself."

and other times (read: the vast majority) you would call down with a/x k/x hoping to draw and pay him off.

"Do you think he has a better hand than me more than 50% of the time? How many percent of the hands that he'll raise with preflop have me beat on this flop?"

let's see.. what are the odds of hitting your single overcard on the flop? that percentage, minus the variance of when you hit 2p/straight, or when he flops something stupid like 558 with k5 and you with 8/10
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend
Joined
Jan 14, 2006
Total posts
4,193
i don't know much about limit, but i do know this:

not raising when you know you have the best hand is the biggest mistake you will make.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Total posts
2,380
Smooth calling with A-10 is a horrible tactic here. Absolutely dreadful. He's vulnerable to so many different cards that may come that not raising with such a vulnerable hand is awful.

That said: Someone who smooth calls with marginal hands (a pair of 10s certainly qualifies) is not someone who fits the description "hyper aggressive."


Granted it may not fit the description but it is a viable tactic that has been and used by plenty of hyper aggresive folks. We folks at CC aren't the only ones learning and playing the game as well. Just because someone plays a certain way doesn't mean he/she won't switch in mid-stream. It can/has and does happen.

What? You must not have understood: He raises on average about 30% of his preflop hands. How many of those hands do you think have me beat right now? At least 60-65% of that 30%.

Out of curiousity, presuming you somehow misclicked and called preflop, would you have folded when he bet on the flop? Would you have called? Would you have raised?
Would have folded.. No reason to get in a pissing contest with a marginal hand with a weak kicker. Most I would have is a 20% chance to hit on the turn for either 2 pair or trips. A bet saved is a bet earned for later when the % is in your favor.

Oh, he's paying me off, alright. He called my raise on the flop, he called my bet on the turn, and now I check to him on the river to allow him to try to bluff me out of a pot. A passive player will check behind on this river with garbage. An aggressive player will jump at the sign of perceived weakness and try to steal it. Hence this thread.
Yeah until he does turn over the A,10.. K,10.. Q,10.. High pocket pair and then you look like an amateur cause you didn't take into account every possible strategy/skill he has in his repetoire. Then the assumption that it is indeed a steal will make you look foolish.
Yet it isn't even a steal if he does bet(then it becomes a value bet) and value bets aren't even a steal.

I could have checked the turn, and he would have bet. I could have checkraised him there, but that would have folded him out. Instead, I bet, and planning to check the river to induce a bluff. I can't do this with a passive player (because then betting the river would be better, but they would fold almost any hand that I can beat).
Yes until he re-raised for either the A,10 or any A X card. You can't determine yet if he has A,10 or A X just because he called your re-raise on the flop. Right now again you are betting into him, if he was betting into you it would be a diffrent story. Position here is the key and in this scenario you don't have it.

Then this may be something you need to work on. It's absolutely imperative that you try to put your opponent on a hand all the time, because that's the only way to improve your handreading.
I read it all just fine, I just don't get into hope/wish/luck pissing contests very often at all especially when I am 1st to act. That is why I love this hyper aggresive person, he has you by the nuts because he has position.
Being that one must need a good hand to come out of the BB while acting 1st which in your case you didn't have a good hand. You shown that by calling his pre-flop raise. Yet you only shown that you have paired the 10 which now your weakness (pre-flop call)shows that you don't have a greak kicker for that 10. It is an easy read on the player who is in the blinds(that didn't show strength by re-raising pre-flop) . Now the hyper-aggresive player who's in position has a read on you which is much better then having a read on the cards. Something you need to work on, reading the player and not the board. Stop stereo typing players.. Yes we can label one as hyper-aggresive, passive aggresive, a rock, et-cetra. Yet to discount that they can change strategy in the middle of any hand is to believe they only play one certain way(Period). The saying goes "Mix it up" so those who are labeled as such, I am sure as well also "Mix it up".

And risking to be outdrawn by Jx, if he has a pair of 10s with a better kicker than me. No, smooth calling with a marginal hand is NOT the way to go, and it is not the way of a hyperaggressive player. Calling and hoping to catch a bluff, on the other hand, is Yet it isn't always the way with a hyper-aggresive player. Keep generalizing and stereo typing those players, to constantly think that is the way they always play is stereo typing. Even a rock can all of a sudden become the hyper-aggresive. Now if the hyper-aggresive has changed in this hand, then what you going to think?
It will definatly throw you off your game into again guessing what hands he may or may not have.

If you, in limit shorthanded poker, do not raise when you think you have the better hand, you're missing out on a lot of profit. If he thought I was just bluffing, this would be an okay way to play it. But why would he think that? If he believes me when I tell him I have a top pair, he also knows I'll be forced to call a raise from him. Not raising is terrible.
I don't need to think, I know when I have the better hand. I don't pussy foot around, slow play, check raise. No fancy pants play here.. Either you have the hand or your don't, throw out the occasional bluff(semi bluff), feeler bet to see where everyone stands. I told you plenty of times, one must pay to beat me. If I am beat and I know it.. no need to screw around and try to outbeat someone when there are plenty of other battles/times I can outbeat them.

And again I have to ask: What does "hyper aggressive" describe to you?
Any 2 Card player, which we shouldn't discount that he doesn't have any other skills or strategies in his repetoire.


Don't give generalized advice that in no way takes into account who you're playing against. If a rock had raised, I would have folded. I've folded much stronger hands than this in the big blind.
Are you not wasting money on a marginal hand? Last I recalled 10,8 is marginal, so yes it takes into full account who you are playing against. A marginal hand is a marginal hand no matter how you try to slice and dice it.

Now, here's the thing. With skilled enough opponents, you won't get the privilege of waiting for monster hands that you can safely raise. They will outplay you if you do this, because you won't get paid enough when you do get them, and you will be forced to pay too much in blinds in between. Learning to play marginal hands well is difficult, but absolutely necessary when playing tougher competition. It's not essential at 2/4 (although there's a noticeable difference between 1/2 and 2/4 - there are actually internet professionals starting at the 2/4 limits), but it definitely puts more money in your pocket.

I never said you have to have a monster hand. Just a little more the marginal will do especially when you are 1st to act.



Yeah, being a calling station is by far the best way to play against overaggro players.

When's yer book coming out twizzy?

(I'd say more, but FP has everything bar sarcastic remarks covered here, so I'll just cover that)

Nope by having you bet into my superiorior hand is better then having you fold to it.

My books is allready out, they were thinking of putting it next to yours in the comic book section.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Total posts
2,380
not raising when you know you have the best hand is the biggest mistake you will make

Yet odd how that raise can make an opponent fold when indeed you could be extracting more money from them just by calling instead.
 
Top