RING: Why do people NOT like short stackers?

Crummy

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They may not bring their own win rate down, so that is not quite accurate. Most people who play poker are interested in their own win rate, not the overall welfare of the table as a whole.

AGREED! There are MANY pros that play short stack strategy and make a killing off of it. They do it for certain reasons...... No matter how you play the game, weather it is by the book or your own aggressive style, each person has a "style" that they prefer and that works for them.

Short Stack play can be looked at by different ways:
I'm the short stack:
I buy into a $1/$2 game with $50 bucks and everybody else has $200. I go all in with my $50 get called and only win $100 pot. If I had bought in for the full $200 I'd have won a $400 pot. My mistake for not buying in full.

I'm the Big Stack:
I buy into the same game with $200 guy next to me only has $25 - 50, I flop something nice, I think its the best hand. SS goes all in, I call I beat because the SS limped and slow played top set to my top pair top kicker? (just making hands up here (there you like that?)). Now if he had the full amount and went all in I might not have called unless I was 100% that I had the best hand.

Short stack again:
I buy in same game for $50, make a hit and run after all in and a double up. Move to another table, so the same thing. After 30 minutes I'm up a few hundred bucks!

I don't mind SS players in certain situations.
 
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PattyR

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^^ the "hit and run" strategy seems very common at the .25/.5 tables.

i never tried it...but maybe i should
 
tenbob

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People seem to be mixing things up. There is a big (HUGE) difference between the standard <nl$100 shortstackers that are generally brutal players and the 24 tabling shortstackers that play nl$200 and above, and usually there is several of them on most tables.
 
Monoxide

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poker is an emotional game.
 
JimmyBrizzy

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So from my point of view what I can see from this thread is microstakes players are stereotyping their shortstackers they see as bad where they dont think as much and dont play well.
On the other hand belgo etc play with good, thinking shortstackers and pro at that so they are stereotyping them as good.

I think you both need to compensate with each other and appreciate that shortys at the micros are in general bad and low/mid stakes thinking shortys are usually good even if they are exploiting an unfair edge over deepstackers.

ps, i'm with jurn
 
Suited Frenzy

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I've read every comment so far.

Very interesting argument going on & I see great points on both sides.

I'd like to add that these type of 'arguments' or 'discussions' are generally okay as long as the viewers/readers of this particular thread gain some valuable knowledge out of it :top:
 
Stu_Ungar

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I'd like to add that these type of 'arguments' or 'discussions' are generally okay as long as the viewers/readers of this particular thread gain some valuable knowledge out of it :top:


So far I have learned that Short Stackers are more technically referred to as scumbags. :D
 
dj11

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Still in the 'I hate SS'ers' vein I see. The belgo's etc (please take no offense as non is intended), hate SS'ers because they have the perception that SS'ers diminish their potential. As well as nulify their advantage. So of course they will be upset, and it seems that the easiest way to eploit that group would be to announce, via the chat window, at every table I (you) as SS'ers sit at something like "I'm one of those dreaded SS'ers"

Watch the tilt and the SHIT fly!

So, If a player come in with a strategy to play against deep stacks, you get upset?

Don't go swimming boys, you can't tell the fish from the sharks.....
 
bob_tiger

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anyone who doesnt hate shortstackers to death hasnt fully experienced the annoyance they bring imo

solution: play hu and insta sit out, works for me yo :p

+1
 
zachvac

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Sorry don't want to seem arrogant but the people who play micros and are saying shortstackers aren't that bad are sorta like a little league player arguing with players in the MLB that spitballs aren't that bad because when their friends spit on the ball it doesn't move. For those who don't know baseball too well a spitball is an illegal pitch and when thrown right can make the ball move a lot more than natural because it affects the physics of the ball. Obviously it's more sofisticated than just spitting on it and throwing a fastball.

I repeat, dj/nwf/etc. would you have a problem if the sites lowered the min buy-in to 1 BB? 50nl players could now choose to buy in for 50c etc. Would you have a problem with it? They would have the ultimate edge mathematically and if you can understand that hopefully you can extend that to understand why 20 BBers have an edge and it has nothing to do with skill. Also "amount won" in a hand is a dumb argument. Whether you could have won a 200 BB pot or 40 or w/e just makes no difference. It's about long-term ev not how much you could have won in a pot. Also lol at people talking about deepstackers being trapped by a shortstacker slowplaying top pair. The way they make their money is pushing super-wide preflop meaning that they never slowplay their good hands. So if you are playing against shortstackers who slowplay their good hands you're not playing real shortstacker and as Belgo put it I consider those fish that just so happen to have a short stack. If they don't exploit their edge with their stack size they're just fish and I'm glad to have them there. But when they basically exploit a built-in mathematical edge those are the ones I mean when I say shortstacker.

Also I know people think 100nl is high but even most 100nl/200nl shortstackers aren't that good. I'm not sure what his poker site name is but imsxxakid on 2p2 is a known shortstacker and apparently he is able to grind out a small winrate shortstacking like 400nl-5knl. Not entirely sure on his story but that's what a good shortstack does. Most of the 100nl and even 200nl are just the ones who nit it up and I don't even mind those since they just bleed away money and when a nit 3-bets and I have a weak hand I'm folding whether they have 20 BBs or 100 BBs. Also people saying shortstacking is so easy a monkey could do it are also being unfair. It does take skill and there are a lot of adjustments and counteradjustments they have to make to shove/calling ranges. But that's it. They don't need to learn poker, they need to learn simple shove and calling ranges and adjust those to exploit the loophole in the rules. Fortunately if they were smart they'd probably deepstack so there really aren't that many good shortstackers. Of course the bad ones still basically are able to breakeven at least after rakeback.
 
bob_tiger

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How is this fundamentally different from a shark with a good winrate who sits at a table full of decent nits/regs? If someone's winrate is going down, someone else's is going up.

I beg to differ. Just because they don't choose to play with the maximum buyin doesn't mean they suck or can't make money. If they are so bad, why don't you just win all their mahnies and make them quit? (See above posts for answers)

i'm going to assume you don't understand SS strategy and it takes no skill at all so people who aren't able to think at higher levels and can't beat people at real poker decide to play shortstacked because if they understand the strategy for SS they can't be exploited which has been stated 100 meeeelion times in this thread.
 
vanquish

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Still in the 'I hate SS'ers' vein I see. The belgo's etc (please take no offense as non is intended), hate SS'ers because they have the perception that SS'ers diminish their potential. As well as nulify their advantage. So of course they will be upset, and it seems that the easiest way to eploit that group would be to announce, via the chat window, at every table I (you) as SS'ers sit at something like "I'm one of those dreaded SS'ers"

Watch the tilt and the SHIT fly!

So, If a player come in with a strategy to play against deep stacks, you get upset?

Don't go swimming boys, you can't tell the fish from the sharks.....

does your own post make sense to you?

it sure as hell doesn't make sense to me.

as part of the Belgo Etc. conglomerate, i assure you that we don't sit there stewing in our own tilt when a shortstacker sits at the table. it's just part of the "sigh this table just got drier" effect, same as when the biggest winning reg sits directly to our left (except when a good reg sits, you can give him respect for being good, and when a shortstacker sits, the only thing you get to "respect" is the mathematical edge he has, and try to adjust accordingly), or when a fish leaves and gets replaced by a reg. it's not like every tom, dick and jane can just sit shortstacked at our tables and go "HI IM A DREADER SHORTSTACKER, EAT MY SHIT, HEATHENS" and we'll all start shipping funds to his account.
 
C

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Wading back into this for some reason.

I am somewhat indifferent on the concept of whether shortstackers are good or evil. So right up front I am not defending their play as much as playing a little devils advocate.

The restated argument that micro players cannot understand how shortstackers make their money because they don't have the experience of higher limit players is a fallacy.

It's obvious to me that not all of us kiddie table players understand from the comments I read here. Some comments are ignorant.

I*think* I get it though. ;)

Shortstackers use a mathematical edge by leveraging the power of tiny little ICM like push fold decisions in a cash game, reducing the game to a one dimensional strategy via which they can (if they are good at it, or their software is) eek out enough winrate to make a tiny amount of money usually after bonuses.

This screws up the game for players who play (what they perceive is) a more 3d form of "real" poker where their edge comes from exploiting bad players over the course of the hand. When the shortstacker comes in throwing bombs he effectively forces the deep player to play a one dimensional shortstacked game part of the time.

I get it. And I see why it sucks. I also think some of us other lowly micro players get it too.

The question some of us are asking is: "How is this not just the nature of poker"?

The problem as I see it, is this is the second big evolution of poker which has been caused by the game going online and being played on your computer screen.

The ONLY way the loathed shortstacker can make this worth his time is to play many many hands per hour. But since they can, there is a specific safe(ish) strategy for not losing.

The first giant revolution of poker was when online play allowed players to multitable in the first place. The addition of datamining and real time HUDs changed the game entirely in the same way shortstackers are changing it. They (somewhat passivlely) reduced anyone's win-rate who did not play this new form of game.

It was not too many years ago that the idea of playing more than 2 tables was anathema to most pros. "You drop your winrate" they would say. But as all good (and most bad) multitabling players now know not only can you sustain more $/hr but you even out the risk substantially. You'r edge might become finer, but that is actually safer poker in the end.

Shortstackers are just a new branch in the evolution of online poker.

I kind of wish we could all only play 1 table (ok maybe 2) and huds didn't exist. I think the game would be far more fun, and my edge would go up greatly since this is the situation in which I am most comfortable. But nomatter how hard I wish for this to be true it most likely never will be.

Poker is going to continue to evolve. There will be the occasional bright flame who rises above the pack in savant like glory... and there will be the hoardes of dull minded robots who develop thinner and thinner edges with less and less risk using more science and less art.

Poker is going to continue to evolve. We either evolve with it, or get left behind muttering about "scumbags".

My money is on the "belgos" evolving. Some of the "cAPSLOCKS" are gonna do their best to come along too.
 
Egon Towst

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The question some of us are asking is: "How is this not just the nature of poker"?

Excellent point, m8, and great post overall. Well said.

As many will know, I am primarily an MTT player. I play some 100NL Ring to fill in time between tournies.

Because I am a tourney player, I am wholly accustomed to an environment where all are deepstacked in the early game, there are mixed stacks in the middle game, and then all are short-stacked at the end. Adjusting for relative stack size is a normal part of the game and one of the basic skills which an MTT player must master. I therefore find it hard to understand that some otherwise sensible people get so stressed about it.
 
NoWuckingFurries

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I repeat, dj/nwf/etc. would you have a problem if the sites lowered the min buy-in to 1 BB?
I can't really say zach, because I dont play cash tables, I play tournaments. :dontknow:

Incidentally I'm not convinced that they're "exploiting a loophole", either. It's all part of poker.
 
BelgoSuisse

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Adjusting for relative stack size is a normal part of the game and one of the basic skills which an MTT player must master. I therefore find it hard to understand that some otherwise sensible people get so stressed about it.

Come on. You should know that shortstacks in MTT and cash are entirely different issues. In MTTs, ICM makes the last chips of a shorty a lot more valuable in $ than the equivalent chips for a deepstacked player, and that changes entirely who bullies and who gets bullied.

Also, you can't rathole MTTs, you can't buy-in half stacked for $100 in the sunday million, none of the scum tactics used by SS parasites apply in MTTs.
 
bob_tiger

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Excellent point, m8, and great post overall. Well said.

As many will know, I am primarily an MTT player. I play some 100NL Ring to fill in time between tournies.

Because I am a tourney player, I am wholly accustomed to an environment where all are deepstacked in the early game, there are mixed stacks in the middle game, and then all are short-stacked at the end. Adjusting for relative stack size is a normal part of the game and one of the basic skills which an MTT player must master. I therefore find it hard to understand that some otherwise sensible people get so stressed about it.

shortstacks in MTTs and cash games are two different stories my friend
 
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