BelgoSuisse
Legend
Silver Level
I agree. But i think in this case it was deserved.
I agree. But i think in this case it was deserved.
BelgoSuisse
Legend
Silver Level
They don't "create action" in any remote sense of the word.
They do generate rake.
But from the sites' point of view, their main usefulness is to decrease the edge good regs have over fishes. Big edges means the regs end up with most of the fishes' money. Small edges means the sites end up with most of the fishes' money through rake.
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
Getting back to Sticks OP. We have not produced anything other than a "why I hate SS'ers' thread here.
If I ever do turn to ring as my bread and butter, and I read this thread, it seems clear to me that the right way to do it is to be a SS'er!
Egons post # 3 sort of tells the story in a nutshell. When a SS'er sits down, he effectively limits his opponents to his stack. He is not short in his mind. You are all overstacked to him. And probably represent a gold field to him.
It is a Point of view situation. SS'ers tend to determine what they are willing to risk (lose) for a session, and how they want to lose (risk) it. Some folks just can't play penny games so they play $1 games.
Seems the solution is that you who play big games (over $50 nl) should change your mindset. Take that $50 [or whatever] max buy-in and find the bigger game tables where that $50 becomes the min buy-in.
If you are great poker players, it seems your win rates would go through the roof.
If I ever do turn to ring as my bread and butter, and I read this thread, it seems clear to me that the right way to do it is to be a SS'er!
Egons post # 3 sort of tells the story in a nutshell. When a SS'er sits down, he effectively limits his opponents to his stack. He is not short in his mind. You are all overstacked to him. And probably represent a gold field to him.
It is a Point of view situation. SS'ers tend to determine what they are willing to risk (lose) for a session, and how they want to lose (risk) it. Some folks just can't play penny games so they play $1 games.
Seems the solution is that you who play big games (over $50 nl) should change your mindset. Take that $50 [or whatever] max buy-in and find the bigger game tables where that $50 becomes the min buy-in.
If you are great poker players, it seems your win rates would go through the roof.
Dorkus Malorkus
HELLO INTERNET
Silver Level
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Attachments
BelgoSuisse
Legend
Silver Level
No. At 200nl+, the best shortstackers typically earn 1BB/100, while the best deepstackers can earn 3 or 4BB/100. The one thing in favor of shortstacking is that you don't really need a brain to do it. A trained monkey can probably make a living that way. Or a bot.
I don't think you understand the points made by zach and I in this thread. And frankly, i don't know how to make them any more clear than what zach did.
About your suggestion. I'm very confortably bankrolled to play 200nl. But I'm no way bankrolled enough to shortstack 1000nl buying in for $200. Variance would be ridiculously higher doing that.
NoWuckingFurries
Legend
Silver Level
I don't agree with that, they have chosen a style of play that suits them, and it doesn't suit you. They are playing within the rules, and their money is just as good as anybody else's.
Maybe you are actually the parasite?
BelgoSuisse
Legend
Silver Level
I don't agree with that, they have chosen a style of play that suits them, and it doesn't suit you. They are playing within the rules, and their money is just as good as anybody else's.
Maybe you are actually the parasite?
Educate yourself, please: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism
Parasitism is a pretty accurate metaphore of shortstacking deep stacked games. They cannot survive (profit) without their deep stacked hosts. Otherwise tables full of shortstackers would not split, and they would actually choose to play at cap NL tables instead of infecting the real NL tables.
I have absolute respect for regs who play the cap NL (30bb max) tables. If they can make a profit playing 30bb deep poker, so much the better for them. I don't think it's a very enjoyable form of poker, but if they enjoy it, it's fine with me. I have zero respect for regs who buy in short at NL tables, because they are parasites. And i choose that word very carefully.
Infamous1020
Visionary
Platinum Level
umm pretttttttttty much this.
Jurn8
Legend
Silver Level
So from my point of view what I can see from this thread is microstakes players are stereotyping their shortstackers they see as bad where they dont think as much and dont play well.
On the other hand belgo etc play with good, thinking shortstackers and pro at that so they are stereotyping them as good.
I think you both need to compensate with each other and appreciate that shortys at the micros are in general bad and low/mid stakes thinking shortys are usually good even if they are exploiting an unfair edge over deepstackers.
On the other hand belgo etc play with good, thinking shortstackers and pro at that so they are stereotyping them as good.
I think you both need to compensate with each other and appreciate that shortys at the micros are in general bad and low/mid stakes thinking shortys are usually good even if they are exploiting an unfair edge over deepstackers.
BelgoSuisse
Legend
Silver Level
As part of the "belgo etc" team, i'd like to state that we don't see a bad shortstacker as a shortstacker at all. He's a fish. And fishes can buy in for any amount they want even though the deeper the better.
When we say we hate shortstacker, we implicitely mean 24-tabling ratholing rakeback pros.
Jurn8
Legend
Silver Level
which therefore backs up what I just stated about us micro stakes guys not seeing these type of people.
Microstakes players and belgo players (we shall call you guys this) see the same players in different perspectives because we see shortstackers as bad players who buy in for 20BBs. You guys see them as 24 tabling rakeback pro's therefore no comparison can be made between the two.
Micros should appreciate that belgo players play vs good competant thinking shortys and belgo players should appreciate the 20BB players at the micros are seen as bad players because they are.
Egon Towst
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
A fair point imo.
Well-known pros Ed Miller and Rolf Slotboom have both written published works on short-stack strategy. Are we going to call those distinguished senior members of the poker fraternity "parasites" and "scumbags" because they advocate a style some of us may not be comfortable with ?
NoWuckingFurries
Legend
Silver Level
I know what a parasite is. I come to this forum to educate myself, but not by looking up things that I already know, thanks. That's not education.
Egon Towst
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
My friend, you are too modest and missed out the obvious punchline.
For the benefit of those who don`t know, NWF is a teacher of the English language in real life and assuredly knows the meanings of words rather better than most.
S
switch0723
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
The fact that everyone argueing for shortstackers are not full time cash game mid stakes players should say it all really. They bring down the winrate of everyone at the table because they suck at poker.
The fact of the matter is that shortstackers should be slowrolled as often as possible
The fact of the matter is that shortstackers should be slowrolled as often as possible
NoWuckingFurries
Legend
Silver Level
They may not bring their own win rate down, so that is not quite accurate. Most people who play poker are interested in their own win rate, not the overall welfare of the table as a whole.
I have to stress that I never play at cash tables, as I don't consider myself to be a good enough player, but I still want to defend the right of those who choose to do it.
Being too modest is not something that I am usually accused of!
I must say, however, that I did find you to be an extremely modest and likeable person at the CardsChat London meeting, so many thanks for your kind words.
KoRnholio
Visionary
Silver Level
How is this fundamentally different from a shark with a good winrate who sits at a table full of decent nits/regs? If someone's winrate is going down, someone else's is going up.
I beg to differ. Just because they don't choose to play with the maximum buyin doesn't mean they suck or can't make money. If they are so bad, why don't you just win all their mahnies and make them quit? (See above posts for answers)
S
switch0723
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Because a shark comes to the table and wins money by beating everyone at the table at their own game. They are quite simply better at poker so bring down everyone elses winrates just by being better. Shortstacks are not better at poker, they bring down the winrate of everyone because of the style they play. Also sharks can make money playing everyone, they don't care who they play, shortstacks cant survive without deepstack players to exploit
Monoxide
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
So we are talking about real short stackers here, not the ones that have $13.50 in their stack at 50nl who are really bad, loose players. They are nice to have as they always bust eventually and reload for questionable amounts.
The short stackers who know what they are doing are awful for the game. They are not really good to make money off of as I find most of the time you are flipping or you are calling them off light and they have the preflop nuts...often. God they ****in make the tables so difficult to play at sometimes it just makes me only want to play deep.
They make tables bad to join, they smell, they are probably ugly irl, i hate shortstackers.
The short stackers who know what they are doing are awful for the game. They are not really good to make money off of as I find most of the time you are flipping or you are calling them off light and they have the preflop nuts...often. God they ****in make the tables so difficult to play at sometimes it just makes me only want to play deep.
They make tables bad to join, they smell, they are probably ugly irl, i hate shortstackers.
S
switch0723
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Do you not read any other posts in the thread? It has been explained many times why the style of good shortstackers is pretty much unexploitable for deepstack players, so you can't win all of their money and make them quit. Deepstack players make their money by beating other deepstack players at the table, they are't going to change styles so they win at 1bb/100 just to beat the shortstackers, when they can win at 5bb/100 playing normally. Its just without the shortstackers the winrate would go up to like 7bb/100 without changing their game, just purely from the lack of shortstacks
