I'm planning to make a post about a specific topic that I think is fairly widely misunderstood, but I want to make a not entirely scientific poll first to see how you think this should be played:

You're in the big blind in limit hold'em, and suddenly God Almighty stops time and comes down and shows what all the others at the table have. You find out, then, that, in order:

The first player to act raised with


He was cold called by a player with


Then, a call came from


The player on the button 3-bet with


And you look down to see that you're holding



You know that no matter what you do, everyone currently in the hand are going to come along to the flop.

What do you do? Fold, call or raise? I don't want to have a discussion about this just yet, because I want you to vote accordingly to how you would play it, not how someone else at this forum eloquently thinks you should play it. So, just vote, and we can comment and discuss why one is better than the other at a later time. Thanks.

Freddy, i'll vote, but can you just clarify what this means for me.

"The player on the button 3-bet with"

Did he call, raise, i dont understand the terminology, sorry!?

Ah, sorry. 3-bet here means that he raised.

If you bet, and I raise you, and it gets back to you and you raise me back, that's usually called a "re-raise". But in this case, it was a new player who hadn't spoken yet, so he wasn't "re-raising" (since he hadn't raised before he couldn't do it again). Then it's usually called "3-betting".

Good thread FP. The nature of poker means that you have to bet hands that are currently the best. Id raise here and re-evaluate on the flop. Ok the likelyhood that the flop helps "someone" is huge. Hopefully you could get well paid off here with a good flop tho.

RAISE !

Originally Posted by F Paulsson

So, just vote, and we can comment and discuss why one is better than the other at a later time. Thanks.

LOL, I knew this would be ignored, but I didn't think Tenbob would be the 1st culprit!

I'd fold. Pocket Jacks are evil and even if you do hit your set, there are straight possiblities for the other players. True, you have the highest flush providing four diamonds come on the board. Even if I see the flop and it looks good for me, it also looks good for some of the other players as well. I don't know about you, but I would fold.

LMAO - Freddy, you should have put it in bold!

Raise
If your gonna go go all the way or stay home

Originally Posted by robwhufc

LMAO - Freddy, you should have put it in bold!

Yeah. Fortunately, we've gotten some differing views, so the people who have yet to decide may not have been persuaded one way or the other by reading before voting.

To me, this decision is not even a close one. I'll make a post explaining why; tonight, hopefully. I have some other stuff to do so I won't be home until late, but hopefully I'll have some time left.

Keep voting though. Now that there are multiple people on every option, adding your voice won't single you out! Vote vote vote!

You have to raise here. You have the best starting hand. it's as simple as that. You would raise if you didn't know what the others had. You need to play this hand. There are only 2 overcards that beat you. there is only one smaller pair. Even if the flop does come with a straight draw you still need to play your hand. If no A Q 7 come on the flop you are ahead. unless someone spikes 2 pair 89 ect which is unlikely. Plus your implied odds are huge. You are rasing 1 sb to win 8sb which is 8-1 on your money. I'll take those odds all day.

I call because blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah. Yadah, Yadah,Yadah,Yadah,Yadah,Yadah,Yadah,Yadah,Yadah,Ya dah,Yadah,Yadah.
Or I might 4 bet.(Is that possible?)

Originally Posted by Four Dogs

I
Or I might 4 bet.(Is that possible?)

Yes. That would be capping the bet (if I'm not mistaken, FP?). I voted call.

equity(%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 32.8650 % 32.84% 00.02% { JdJs }
Hand 2: 16.1377 % 16.11% 00.02% { 7c7h }
Hand 3: 16.7794 % 16.41% 00.37% { QhTc }
Hand 4: 14.6336 % 14.61% 00.02% { 9d8d }
Hand 5: 19.5843 % 19.21% 00.37% { AsTd }

I think it's pretty clear you need to cap it preflop. Solid poker is based on getting as much money in as possible while you have the best hand.

Also, if you know what everybody else has, it makes your postflop decisions far easier.

I would definately raise here. You have way the best and want to get as much money in the pot as you can. Of course There's a lot of cards that will give another player a better hand, but at the moment you are the favourite. It's actually very simple: Bet/raise with the best hand and Check/fold with the worst hand.

Edit: I just ran it through an odds calculator, and you are a 32.84% favourite to win, so with 4 other people in the pot, it's a definate raise. The 10♦A♠ is the second best hand with a 19.21% chance of winning the pot.

Let's bring it uptown.

You have 33% equity in this pot, and are only contributing 20% to the pot.
There are many dangerous flops sure, but a little variance never hurt anyone (sufficiently bankrolled of course)



I vote for taking uptown one more time.

Bill

If Bill says raise then I want to change my vote to raise as well.

Yet raise cause you have the best hand??

You don't know you have the best hand... To assume that you do is nuts especially with the the 2 raises(not 3 by the way). Not to mention that you act 1st as well because you are in the blinds. One definatly needs to recognize position here as well.

So yes you could raise but you still will be acting 1st. Since we've become Fortune tellers, you are now drawing against an Ace, Queen, a flush draw, not to mention cards that will help you make your straight.

Definate call.. a bet saved is a bet earned.

- Yes you do know you have the best hand, and that capping is a profitable move in the long run. Read the posts by Bill and I.

- Position is irrelevant here as you have all the information you need anyway, seeing as you know the other people's hole cards.

Originally Posted by t1riel

I'd fold. Pocket Jacks are evil and even if you do hit your set, there are straight possiblities for the other players. True, you have the highest flush providing four diamonds come on the board. Even if I see the flop and it looks good for me, it also looks good for some of the other players as well. I don't know about you, but I would fold.

I wonder whether Poker is really the game for you if you think this! Although there is every possibility that you could lose this hand, the potential rewards far outweigh the risks. If you play 10 hands like this you will make a significant profit. Pot odds are what poker is all about, and need to be understood if you are ging to make poker pay.

Well I am here to learn. I would raise. Can't wait to here if I am wrong or not!

Originally Posted by F Paulsson

suddenly God Almighty stops time and comes down and shows what all the others at the table have.

Did you guys see this part??

Actually I would raise not because I have the best hand (all you have are the best under cards),but to get rid of any riders.

Yes you do know you have the best hand

No you don't and you know what assuming is.. it is the mother of all **** ups.

Position is irrelevant here as you have all the information you need anyway, seeing as you know the other people's hole cards.
Wow! Dorkus I want you at all my tables considering now you've become a fortune teller. In reality you don't know the nature of any of these hands, yes you can guess, yes you may guess correctly, yes you may guess wrong.
But to safely assume again that you have the best hand and in best position which you are not is wrong.

I am sure as well that you aren't superman and have x-ray vision. 4 others hold cards which there are 8 cards out on the table. We can only guess what they may or may not have. Safe to assume the 1st raise was indeed pocket cards? Nope for all we know it is a 10,2 doyle hand.

Unrealistic vision by the god allmight shows you are against all those hands.. Now if we know god all mighty is going to give us insight then by all means raise till the cows come home, and by the way. You are at the wrong tables then.. you'd be better off at limits considering the god all mighty just gave you superior vision.

Realism shows this isn't even a mock hand. Now what if you have the 9,4 would you cap off the bet?? Wait what if you have pocket 22's? How about pocket AA's?

Lets play with the unknown factors which scientifically the game is supposed to be played by. Sceintifically there is no such thing as god.. we came from apes remember?

....what on earth are you going on about?

Read the first post. It's a hypothetical question (bolded and italicised so maybe, just maybe you'll pay attention to it), your inane rambling is completely irrelevant, though quite amusing.

lol.Twizzybop, i guess you didn't see this in the first post: You're in the big blind in limit hold'em, and suddenly God Almighty stops time and comes down and shows what all the others at the table have. You find out, then, that, in order.

As for what i would do: I would raise.

Originally Posted by Dorkus Malorkus

equity(%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 32.8650 % 32.84% 00.02% { JdJs }
Hand 2: 16.1377 % 16.11% 00.02% { 7c7h }
Hand 3: 16.7794 % 16.41% 00.37% { QhTc }
Hand 4: 14.6336 % 14.61% 00.02% { 9d8d }
Hand 5: 19.5843 % 19.21% 00.37% { AsTd }

I think it's pretty clear you need to cap it preflop. Solid poker is based on getting as much money in as possible while you have the best hand.

Also, if you know what everybody else has, it makes your postflop decisions far easier.

I think most of who will vote would have done so by now, so here's what I wanted to say:

Chris has got it precisely right, and even (which I was hoping someone would) used the Odds Calculator to see why. We know precisely where we stand, here, and we know that our hand is 33% to win at this point, but we have four opponents. Put in other words, since we will win this pot 33% of the time, you could say that 33% of THIS pot's money belongs to us. What happens if we raise?

... we get another 5 dollars in the pot.

... Another 5 dollars that we "own" 33% of.

... 33% of $5 is $1.7.

... In other words, we're getting a 70% return on our investment. That's awesome.

This is the basic idea of "equity". We want to push as much money as we can into this pot right now, because every cent that goes in means more profit for us. The point where it breaks even, of course, is at 20% - so the guy with A-10 is close.

In other words, the only reason that we would ever consider doing anything but raising here is if we believe that we could somehow win something on disguising our hands. However, I don't believe this to be a good enough reason, because we have such a strong lead here that we want to make the maximum of it right now.

Now, as for calling and "safing" (checking that there are no queens or aces on the flop before continuing), there's a problem with that: Don't you suppose the other hands are also safing? If this is a good flop for you, it's often a bad flop for them. Woo, you hit a safe flop and bet! ... aaand they fold. You raise now, because now is when they're likely to pay you off. When people talk about aggressive poker players, this is what they mean: Pushing your edges. You have an edge - backing down and not taking advantage of it is passive, and it's costing you money.


And never - ever - fold.

And just to clarify for the 4 "folds", yes you are more likely to lose this hand than win it, but long term winning a third of these big pots is going to leave you well ahead.

Originally Posted by robwhufc

And just to clarify for the 4 "folds", yes you are more likely to lose this hand than win it, but long term winning a third of these big pots is going to leave you well ahead.

Precisely.

Originally Posted by robwhufc

I wonder whether Poker is really the game for you if you think this! Although there is every possibility that you could lose this hand, the potential rewards far outweigh the risks. If you play 10 hands like this you will make a significant profit. Pot odds are what poker is all about, and need to be understood if you are ging to make poker pay.

Now that I have re-read this post. I have changed my mind. Yes, there are starting hands that could beat pocket Jacks depending on the flop. But if I make a large raise, some players will probably fold giving me better odds to win. I must have been tired when I first read this or wasn't thinking. So, I change my vote to raise and a big raise at that.

Originally Posted by t1riel

Now that I have re-read this post. I have changed my mind. Yes, there are starting hands that could beat pocket Jacks depending on the flop. But if I make a large raise, some players will probably fold giving me better odds to win. I must have been tired when I first read this or wasn't thinking. So, I change my vote to raise and a big raise at that.

It's a limit game, so you can't make a big raise. Besides you know from the predetermined rules that they are going to call if you raise.

*Smacks* self with spooon.. *smacks again*.. lol.. for purpose of me being________(insert whatever word you want here). or words if you prefer.

Call or raise here cause it won't matter what comes for the flop you will know exactly where you stand from there. Unless of course for sceintifically purposes the god allmighty lets you also see the cards in the deck that is coming for the flop.

Since everyone else is breaking the rule, I voted to raise with the best hand, if an A hits and you lead out then the other players have to at least think that you could have A/A or A/K.

Oops, didn't see the 2nd page until after I posted, rookie mistake.

I would call. Now we have to see what is correct?

I also did not see the second page!

I'm with Sammy on this one, like him can't wait to hear the ending.

Honest question & forgive me for sounding negative: If we have a 33% chance of winning, that means we have a 67% chance of losing. Please explain to me why it's a good idea to risk MORE money by raising on odds that are 2-1 against us.

(My vote was to call, because of the multi-way pot.)

Originally Posted by MrSticker

Honest question & forgive me for sounding negative: If we have a 33% chance of winning, that means we have a 67% chance of losing. Please explain to me why it's a good idea to risk MORE money by raising on odds that are 2-1 against us.

(My vote was to call, because of the multi-way pot.)

Because you are getting 4-1 on a 2-1 chance.

Originally Posted by MrSticker

Honest question & forgive me for sounding negative: If we have a 33% chance of winning, that means we have a 67% chance of losing. Please explain to me why it's a good idea to risk MORE money by raising on odds that are 2-1 against us.

(My vote was to call, because of the multi-way pot.)

Rob's explanation is correct, but I'll try to expand a bit on it.

Let's say that we play this hand 100 times. We expect, then, to:

* Lose 33 times.
* Win 67 times.

Right?

If we raise in this situation, we will lose $67 (67*1). But we will win $132 (33*4). This is why we should raise. If this was a heads-up situation, and we were still only 33% to win, raising would be bad. But here, you're the favorite.

Originally Posted by F Paulsson

* Win 33 times.
* Lose 67 times.

Ahhh, I see now. Thanks FP!

/me shakes her blond hair and says, even a blond got this one right.

knowing the hands...i'd probably fold. Simply because 2 over cards and 4 people in teh pot is not good odds...

However, i'd call anything if i didn't know the hands with JJ...

call, assuming I didn't know the players

Originally Posted by MrSticker

Honest question & forgive me for sounding negative: If we have a 33% chance of winning, that means we have a 67% chance of losing. Please explain to me why it's a good idea to risk MORE money by raising on odds that are 2-1 against us.

(My vote was to call, because of the multi-way pot.)

A lot of people probably are thinking this (^), and it was explained well here. Just to put it another way: the goal in poker isn't to win hands or pots, it's to win money. Understanding the concept of equity is so crucial I might go so far as to say that it's the big "secret" of poker. Of course you need to add the words "long term" on to my statement to make it technically correct.

Originally Posted by Dorkus Malorkus

Also, if you know what everybody else has, it makes your postflop decisions far easier.

this is the easiest reason to raise and it's not even close.

but just knowing we're 33% to win alone should be enough

20 month old thread alert!

^^^

And after all the explaining as to why raising is the right move all of the time, you still say call, Insomniac?

welp, considering I'm not sleeping much these days, I will have to look at this when I can do some ana. ooops almost derailed the thread. Will look at it when I can actually stop and think about.

Nope changed my mind.

Fold.

Are we talking the Fundmental therom of poker, and if so doesn't it apply to seeing all of your opponents cards, not just the hole cards.

With everybody in, with a raise and a reraise, someone is going to shove the pot and I don't tend to risk all of my chips preflop so I would be out the cost of the bet and one big blind.

I'll wait for a better hand.

Originally Posted by Insomniac_1006

Nope changed my mind.

Fold.

Are we talking the Fundmental therom of poker, and if so doesn't it apply to seeing all of your opponents cards, not just the hole cards.

With everybody in, with a raise and a reraise, someone is going to shove the pot and I don't tend to risk all of my chips preflop so I would be out the cost of the bet and one big blind.

I'll wait for a better hand.

you know everyone's cards and you're favored to win over anyone else. if you can't use that to your advantage to the point where you want to pump as much into the pot as possible preflop, there's a huuuuge problem with the way you're playing