questions for chuck,fish, and others who do well in low limit NL cash games

D

Dingodaddy23

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Well, my bankroll got knocked back the other day (dont worry i didn tilt it off playing 50/100!!) needed the money to pay to get my ride fixed and buy some really good trees:) So I'm back to about 300 bucks, grinding 11 dollar sng's again. I really want to get better at cash games because thats where the consistent cash is IMO. I figure 300 is enough for the 25 max buy-in, i know its less than the reccomended figure but come on, they're 99% donks right? I just have a few questions about playing in these low limit cash games.


1- I'm planning to play 6-max, what type of hands and from what position are you raising in these, and how big of a PF raise do u put in? If you are opening, are you raising up any ace, any 2 paint, and any PP 66+? Also, are you raising more like 6x BB since 3-4x raises seem to get called like they're seeing the flop free. How about if there is limpers before and u have a hand like A9 in position, are you putting in raises there? Are you taking a stab at a lot of pots on the flop if you are in position and its checked to you? What are most of your re-ranging raises (I know its player dependant, but what are you re-raising against your avg 25max donkey?)

2. Do you EVER run bluffs? Eg-check raising a draw and firing on the turn and river? I was playin earlier and set one up perfect, I was sure the guy had QQ or JJ and I check-raised when a king hit and he just pushed, had to call with my OESD for pot odds, and he flipped QQ, I mean, no way would I push QQ with that type of action, you see this a lot in these games?

3. When you hit a big hand, do you slowplay it more often than u would at a higher limit, eg you hit a set and you know ur opponet has either AA or AK or something and he's probably gonna give you his stack if u let him lead, or is straightforward the way to go? My buddy, who played poker for the first time for real money today, deposited 100 on party and made 400 dollars in 3 hours playing .25/50c NL. Whenever he caught, he just check-raised all in and got a surprising amount of calls. Seemed like they all thought an all-in represented a bluff, or they couldnt get away from TP or lost with a smaller overpair. It was kinda crazy, I mean the kid has never played hold'em for money in his life. He is really good at every other card game i've played with him tho, i guess card games are just card games. the dude will own you in TONK (tonk is great anyone know how to play?)

3. What situations do you normally C-bet, and when do you lay off the c-betting? Will you C-bet on a rag flop with 3 callers? 2 callers? I know it's all situation dependant but generally speaking, do most of these guys fold out if they didn't catch a piece? Another thing, it seems like a lot of these guys like to peel a card and try to hit an overcard, the little bit i've played 25 NL the last couple days I see this all the time and I backoff on the turn a lot when there is no draws and end up winning it with ace high, how do you recognize this other than just watching who's doing it.

4. Is open-pushing or check-raising all-in on the flop a viable way to get consistently paid? I bet theres a lot of donks in 25max who would call off their whole stack with a flush draw on the flop but woulnd't put out a bet if its checked to them. Anyone ever tried things like open-pushing sets on an ace flop when u know the original raiser hit his TPTK? Seems to me like the fish think TPTK is gold on the flop, but they can figure out they're beat by the turn or river if u bet hard. But then again sometimes they'll just randomly bet, i dunno, i think once i adjust a little they'll be easy to read, its crazy you'll see huge pots for the stakes and ppl in there with TPNK and middle pairs and crazy stuff, i've folded out a ton of winning hands that were very marginal and I really thought I was most likely behind.


just puttin some things up for discussion, any replies are welcome. I might write some more later if i'm not busy.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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first things first, I'm piss drunk, and may have to revise what im about to say, so ignoring this post isn't a bad idea :)
Another thing is that I've had VERY inconsistent results in cash games (just take a peek at my BR progress thread :eek:), maybe due to variance, maybe due to some big leak in my game, but either way my advice may not be the best.

I haven't played .10/.25 enough to give solid advice on it specifically, but IMO 50 Max and under are basically the same, and I have decent experience at 50 max.

Basically I play 6-handed tables in a Brunson style, but tighter (I'm sure he'd be in literally every hand at a 6-max, completely dominating the table. I like to dominate, but I couldn't possibly handle people pushing back at me every other hand because of my style like brunson could). I'm either folding or raising and reraising like crazy. I hardly limp unless I've got 2 or more limpers ahead of me, and I have a small pair or suited connector. Even then, I over-do my table image advertising and end up folding in situations where I really should call.

My answers are all conditional (to the OP, to the table's style, to my image at the table etc.), though generally the tables I pick are either fairly passive (allows me to dominate) or loose aggressive (I'll play tighter and overpower them with my hand strength).

To answer your questions:

1) It's been said before, but it's basically the way I play: I treat it as if the first 4 seats of a 10-handed table have folded to me, and play my hands positionally based on that. My general hand selection ranges from J9, A6, 22 and up (when I'm trying to dominate a passive table) to AJ, KQ, 88 and up (when the table's loose aggressive, and I'm playing fairly tight). I always bet the same amount, 4BBs, because its both big enough to sweeten the pot, and small enough not to get to 'attached' or committed to my hands when I'm stealing. Though I've got to say that the players are probably inobservant enough for you to bet your steals with 3BB bets, and your premiums with 5 or 6BBs for value. They'll still call with their AJs and 99s when you're holding your AA or KK.
Against the general player at that level, my re-range level is probably 99 and up for PPs, and AJ for high cards. I'm being pretty cautious when I'm raising with hands this weak though.

2)Yes. This is very conditional, but I definitely do it when I sense weakness, or when I need to protect a big pot ([old link~tb]. OP was a strong player, and I knew I could make him fold JJ and down If I put out a very strong C-bet. After his PF call, i would know that he had to have a top-10 hand, probably JJ TT or AQ, and had to bet him off it. This would never work with a weak player). I'll also do it to let my OPs know not to mess with me, and that I will reraise big when I have a hand (or so they think). I've definitely been caught a few times, and have been so pot committed that I feel I have to steal the pot and shoot out that second (or third!) bullet to try and take the pot down. This has bitten me in the ass a few times because players often slowplay sets or two pair. I remember having a few huge deficit days solely from c-bets and bluffs not being respected.
The big thing about bluffing IMO is to know who you're trying to bluff, and also to keep your table image in mind.
Guys will also overvalue pocket pairs or TPTK hands, like in your example, and that's something you must have notes on about the player so you don't walk yourself right into that trap.

3) Unless I've got the deck seriously crippled (say I PF raise with AA, flop gives me AA3), then I'll almost never slowplay.
My style, always betting and raising, will make my opponents think that I'm bluffing, and they'll pay me off big time when I hit those sets. Another thing to keep in mind is that most people don't expect you to lead with a set. Most of the time, people will lead with top pair, middle pair, maybe a draw, so they'll underestimate your hand strength and will either pay you off or try to push you off what they think is a weak hand.

3(part two;)) I'm always c-betting, unless I have a hand like AK, and flop comes 789 or something like that. That and if I get too many callers. I have had hands where I've actually successfully C-betted 4 players out of a pot, but they were complete luck that noone had a hand. I will c-bet a strong hand like AK with up to 2 callers on the flop. If they call, I'll just pray for an ace or king on the turn, then act accordingly.

4) I wouldn't know about check-raising all in, or open pushing. That's not my style of play. I wouldn't be surprised if they paid you off though. Donks will definitely call all in with a flush draw, sometimes OESD, or TPTK especially if they've seen you open push a few times because they will see you as a crazy/wild player.


anyways I really rambled there...I think I've sobered myself up :)
...but that's how I personally play. Some things I definitely need to work on, because I haven't found a consistent profit from cash games yet. Plenty of ups and downs.
 
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F

Fish

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WOW> That's a lot of questions.
I'll answer later.

Here's a quick bit of advice.
Throw away the "trickyplay syndrome".
You made the Ace high flush on a fourflush board? Bet into it.
You flopped a straight? Bet into it.
You flopped just about anything? Bet into it.

You will be called a good percentage of the time.
Don't bother slowplaying.
 
poettic1

poettic1

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one more thing i think fish missed.

have a decent hand wiffed the flop.....bet into it. costs you alot less to bet than call and allot of the time you will get people to fold
 
F

Fish

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poettic1 said:
one more thing i think fish missed.

have a decent hand wiffed the flop.....bet into it. costs you alot less to bet than call and allot of the time you will get people to fold
Nope.
You can do that, but at these levels, these will NOT be your moneymakers.
Middle and Bottom pairs WILL call enough times to make this unprofitable.
That said, this play although usually the correct play, falls into "fancy play syndrome".
 
F

Freakakanus

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Listen to Fish, he's got it pretty much spot on in my opinion.
 
poettic1

poettic1

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what lvl the 1/2$ or higher cause i'm finding the 1/2$ my bank right now lil over 1k this month different sight and all but i can not change my ways this far up.

so yall listen to fish he's a safer player. i just pay my mortgage(600$ a month condo) with poker thats all.

and it is very true you might get callers but recently the ultra ROCKS have made it possible to be great as the agressor if you get called try to make a trapping play or fold but stabs win pots lots of them my wallet says so

this is in no way a correct play at theh micro lvl 1$ or less. i'm not trying to ruffle any feathers just saying what works very well for me against player who "think" they are good
 
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ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Fish said:
WOW> That's a lot of questions.
I'll answer later.

Here's a quick bit of advice.
Throw away the "trickyplay syndrome".
You made the Ace high flush on a fourflush board? Bet into it.
You flopped a straight? Bet into it.
You flopped just about anything? Bet into it.

You will be called a good percentage of the time.
Don't bother slowplaying.


exactly. ABC poker is what works best in the low limits. Not only will it decrease suckouts, but players at that level think that everyone slowplays a hand of 2 pair and above, so lead with your made hands and you will get paid off.
 
F

Fish

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poettic1 said:
what lvl the 1/2$ or higher cause i'm finding the 1/2$ my bank right now lil over 1k this month different sight and all but i can not change my ways this far up.

so yall listen to fish he's a safer player. i just pay my mortgage(600$ a month condo) with poker thats all.

and it is very true you might get callers but recently the ultra ROCKS have made it possible to be great as the agressor if you get called try to make a trapping play or fold but stabs win pots lots of them my wallet says so

this is in no way a correct play at theh micro lvl 1$ or less. i'm not trying to ruffle any feathers just saying what works very well for me against player who "think" they are good
Step 1. Get pen and paper.
Step 2. Write down every time you take stab at pot.
Step 3. Report results after 5000 stabs.
Step 4. Apologize to fish.

Just curious. you're bankroll is "lil over 1k". Do you often play cash games with only 5 buy-ins?
That's a big % of your "roll" (lol) to lose with set over set.
And it sure would hurt to lose 2 or 3 big pots in a short time period.
But wow. you pay a $600 mortgage every month. OK, I guess you must be good. Winning $150 bucks a week at $1/2NL is definitely an accomplishment. Really. It is. I'm not joking.
 
poettic1

poettic1

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man it could be that you've said something but i went over my records. i thought i was way, way more aggressive than i am. i stab only at players that play less than 5% of hands available. damn. but in all farness i wanna be gus hansen really. like my appologies but i'ma a teddy bear. well from what it looks like i guess i play tight at the 50$ buyin lvl. listen to fish he at least knows himself. i do bet when it's checked to me allot more almost 50% of the time but thats standard.




p.s. man my bad i really thought i was an assasin. well whatever at least i'm up right. and yes 1k a month doing nothing but playing poker is kinda hot.

sry to start beef man, but starting today i will start being that guy
 
F

Fish

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I'm not sure I actually understood most of that poetic, but ok.
Play your way, I'll play mine, and some other guy is going to play his way.

I prefer the Gus Hanson Style myself also.
It just doesn't work as well against lower limit players that don't know how to fold.

I find the Hanson tpe LAG style DOES work quite well in $1/2NL and above (and is quite profitable also), but the swings are larger.

The question the OP asked had to do with smaller than $1/2NL so that is what my answer focused on. There TIGHT is right.
 
poettic1

poettic1

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ya when you quoted me i said that if you are playing lower than 1/2 disregaurd this entirely. lol miscomuntication


hey can someone delete my last post. I don't even know what i was saying
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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1- I'm planning to play 6-max, what type of hands and from what position are you raising in these, and how big of a PF raise do u put in? If you are opening, are you raising up any ace, any 2 paint, and any PP 66+? Also, are you raising more like 6x BB since 3-4x raises seem to get called like they're seeing the flop free. How about if there is limpers before and u have a hand like A9 in position, are you putting in raises there? Are you taking a stab at a lot of pots on the flop if you are in position and its checked to you? What are most of your re-ranging raises (I know its player dependant, but what are you re-raising against your avg 25max donkey?)
PF raising would be standard 3BBs + 1BB/limper usually, adding a BB if I'm in the blinds (to discourage action while OOP). There's no need to raise so much preflop, if you get callers you're (a) likely ahead of their calling range, seeing as some donks will cling for dear life to their 86 sooted, and (b) can hopefully outplay them postflop. I always assume a limp to be a sign of weakness in 6-max, as limp-reraising with a monster isn't a smart play (that said 25nl donks may try it), so something like A9 I'd raise standardly in decent position, but would probably limp/check in the blinds. As for c-betting flops, it's largely dependant on the players in the hand. I usually play very conservatively for a few orbits at a new table, just so I can get some (albeit speculative) reads and PAHUD numbers. If I'm in a hand with 3 calling stations, probably best not to c-bet. If I'm in a pot with one or two weak-tighties with a paired or ragged flop, I'll often go for a ~3/4 pot c-bet.

4. Is open-pushing or check-raising all-in on the flop a viable way to get consistently paid? I bet theres a lot of donks in 25max who would call off their whole stack with a flush draw on the flop but woulnd't put out a bet if its checked to them. Anyone ever tried things like open-pushing sets on an ace flop when u know the original raiser hit his TPTK? Seems to me like the fish think TPTK is gold on the flop, but they can figure out they're beat by the turn or river if u bet hard. But then again sometimes they'll just randomly bet, i dunno, i think once i adjust a little they'll be easy to read, its crazy you'll see huge pots for the stakes and ppl in there with TPNK and middle pairs and crazy stuff, i've folded out a ton of winning hands that were very marginal and I really thought I was most likely behind.
You're better off buying in short if you want to try stuff like this. Although it may show a small profit at 25nl, it's not really a sound long-term strategy, and you're not (a) progressing your game by doing it, and (b) almost certainly not maximising your winrate.
 
J

jokkeman

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This is my experience about low limit NL 6 max games:

First i just played tight. Probably Tight-SemiAggressive. I won probably 1/2 max buyin every hour. Then suddenly i thought I was Gus Hansen or whomever so i just lost all i won for a week in only 2 days. That's poker man: When you are trying to play a "fun" game you'll lose.
 
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