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GDRileyx
Rock Star
Platinum Level
One of the reasons I post is to laugh at some of the things your kind of players say in response to my unorthodox methods. But this one, it's just priceless. It perfectly illustrates the ignorant "one way to play poker" attitude so many people here display. It's even funnier than all the flack you guys gave me about minraises. Both concepts are right out of Sklansky.
Sklansky's basic textbook on poker, No Limit Hold 'Em: Theory and Practice has an entire chapter called "The Advantage of Being Short Stacked." Sklansky's Advanced Concepts number 24 and 29 are about how to use minraises. Yet you and Stu and the other yahoos will go to your graves heaping derision on anyone who doesn't play the way you do.
As for the way I count outs, that's straight from another pro's book. But I'm not going to name that book, because I am content to have you continue to figure odds incorrectly. Never wise up a sucker, as they say.
I now have one win, and five other money finishes in the CC freerolls. In the two months I've been eligible to play here. An impartial observer might conclude that I know how to play.
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WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
Answer all my questions please.
Oh and 50bb is not a short stack. It's an awkward in between stack that horrible players often play.
I've read many many books on poker and I have NEVER seen anyone count out the way you do here. Please enlighten me so I might check out the wonderfully hidden, incredibly math challenged author you're keeping to yourself.
Oh yeah, and you still owe Stu an apology.
For easy ref here are the questions I asked earlier:
Just how big of a favorite do you think you are in this hand?
What range are you assigning the villain?
Do you know what a range is? (Hint in this context it has nothing to do with deer or antelope).
Why in the **** are you sitting in a ring game with a half stack?
Why is a "Solid player" also sitting with a half stack?
Is this whole post just some ZOMGPOKERISRIGGED BS because I lost when I basically 53% equity.
Oh and 50bb is not a short stack. It's an awkward in between stack that horrible players often play.
I've read many many books on poker and I have NEVER seen anyone count out the way you do here. Please enlighten me so I might check out the wonderfully hidden, incredibly math challenged author you're keeping to yourself.
Oh yeah, and you still owe Stu an apology.
For easy ref here are the questions I asked earlier:
Just how big of a favorite do you think you are in this hand?
What range are you assigning the villain?
Do you know what a range is? (Hint in this context it has nothing to do with deer or antelope).
Why in the **** are you sitting in a ring game with a half stack?
Why is a "Solid player" also sitting with a half stack?
Is this whole post just some ZOMGPOKERISRIGGED BS because I lost when I basically 53% equity.
GDRileyx
Rock Star
Platinum Level
I have no obligation to answer your questions, which aren't really questions so much as they are challenges. But because it amuses me, this time, I will answer some of them.
Oh and 50bb is not a short stack. It's an awkward in between stack that horrible players often play.
Was that a question? 50BB is a short stack that I already doubled up on a previous hand, and his previous big stack that I already took half of.
I've read many many books on poker and I have NEVER seen anyone count out the way you do here. Please enlighten me so I might check out the wonderfully hidden, incredibly math challenged author you're keeping to yourself.
Sorry nope. As I already said, I'm not giving away this secret.
Oh yeah, and you still owe Stu an apology.
In your opinion perhaps, not in mine. Stu is flat wrong.
Just how big of a favorite do you think you are in this hand?
Read back, I already answered that. I'm going to hit the hand 2/3 of the time, and if I hit it, I expect to win.
What range are you assigning the villain?
When I said he was "solid" that was the closest definition. He's playing like he's trying to be solid, but he has flaws. At this point in the game, I've got him on KQ, KJ, KT, or KA, in that order. I don't think his cards are suited, or he'd have bet more. I acknowledge a remote possibility he has K9, 66 or 77. As it turned out, he had KQ.
Do you know what a range is? (Hint in this context it has nothing to do with deer or antelope).
There are actually two kinds of ranges. There is the range of hands somebody will play, and what range of possible hands you think someone else has.
Why in the **** are you sitting in a ring game with a half stack?
I like to buy in for the minimum, or a little more. I want strangers to take me for a fish, and try to be the one to get my money before somebody else does. Sometimes I put on a show of being weak tight, limping in and letting people knock me out a few times. Then I chip-up and I'm playing with their money rather than my own.
Why is a "Solid player" also sitting with a half stack?
I already sprung my little trap on this guy and doubled up. So he's off balance and not sure if he wants to buy more chips, or move to another table. He doesn't know if I got lucky, or if I'm a better player than he thought. So he is in no hurry to replenish his stack, and maybe have me take that off him too. Which I did on this hand, when I went all in and flushed up. Which, incidentally is why Stu's math was wrong. It was in fact, two draws for one bet.
The only play here was all-in, because it avoids a tough decision if I don't hit my hand on the turn. You have to trust the math here, that if you always play this hand this way, you are going to win more in the long run. Even if you lose this hand this particular time, you always have to play this particular hand this way. Any pro will tell you, if you flop a flush draw on top of open-ender, you almost always have the best hand, and you need to bet it.
For those who are worried that it's not a nut flush, I agree with my favorite annymous pro, the Poker Pigeon, who says "You will lose more in the long run if you are afraid of losing to a bigger flush, than you can ever lose to bigger flushes."
Oh and 50bb is not a short stack. It's an awkward in between stack that horrible players often play.
Was that a question? 50BB is a short stack that I already doubled up on a previous hand, and his previous big stack that I already took half of.
I've read many many books on poker and I have NEVER seen anyone count out the way you do here. Please enlighten me so I might check out the wonderfully hidden, incredibly math challenged author you're keeping to yourself.
Sorry nope. As I already said, I'm not giving away this secret.
Oh yeah, and you still owe Stu an apology.
In your opinion perhaps, not in mine. Stu is flat wrong.
Just how big of a favorite do you think you are in this hand?
Read back, I already answered that. I'm going to hit the hand 2/3 of the time, and if I hit it, I expect to win.
What range are you assigning the villain?
When I said he was "solid" that was the closest definition. He's playing like he's trying to be solid, but he has flaws. At this point in the game, I've got him on KQ, KJ, KT, or KA, in that order. I don't think his cards are suited, or he'd have bet more. I acknowledge a remote possibility he has K9, 66 or 77. As it turned out, he had KQ.
Do you know what a range is? (Hint in this context it has nothing to do with deer or antelope).
There are actually two kinds of ranges. There is the range of hands somebody will play, and what range of possible hands you think someone else has.
Why in the **** are you sitting in a ring game with a half stack?
I like to buy in for the minimum, or a little more. I want strangers to take me for a fish, and try to be the one to get my money before somebody else does. Sometimes I put on a show of being weak tight, limping in and letting people knock me out a few times. Then I chip-up and I'm playing with their money rather than my own.
Why is a "Solid player" also sitting with a half stack?
I already sprung my little trap on this guy and doubled up. So he's off balance and not sure if he wants to buy more chips, or move to another table. He doesn't know if I got lucky, or if I'm a better player than he thought. So he is in no hurry to replenish his stack, and maybe have me take that off him too. Which I did on this hand, when I went all in and flushed up. Which, incidentally is why Stu's math was wrong. It was in fact, two draws for one bet.
The only play here was all-in, because it avoids a tough decision if I don't hit my hand on the turn. You have to trust the math here, that if you always play this hand this way, you are going to win more in the long run. Even if you lose this hand this particular time, you always have to play this particular hand this way. Any pro will tell you, if you flop a flush draw on top of open-ender, you almost always have the best hand, and you need to bet it.
For those who are worried that it's not a nut flush, I agree with my favorite annymous pro, the Poker Pigeon, who says "You will lose more in the long run if you are afraid of losing to a bigger flush, than you can ever lose to bigger flushes."
GDRileyx
Rock Star
Platinum Level
BTW, the Poker Pigeon's maxim on bigger flushes does not apply to Omaha or Stud. He's strictly a Hold 'Em guy.
His book is on Limit Hold 'Em, but I have kinda expanded his ideas to use in No Limit.
jdeliverer
Legend
Silver Level
I think your sig says it all about your personality, and I'm not sure that that makes a productive member of a forum.
Also, how is Stu "flat wrong"? He uses a clearly correct definition of outs (regardless of whether your definition is also correct) and now you call him flat wrong? Before, you were saying that there were multiple methods, and now you're the only right one?
Interesting...
Also, how is Stu "flat wrong"? He uses a clearly correct definition of outs (regardless of whether your definition is also correct) and now you call him flat wrong? Before, you were saying that there were multiple methods, and now you're the only right one?
Interesting...
GDRileyx
Rock Star
Platinum Level
This is where Stu is "flat wrong". He's figuring the odds as being one draw to make my hand, instead of two draws. He's saying it would be 15 outs times two, if it was an all-in bet. He's saying I only get one draw for that bet, and denying that I can multiply by two, the way he counts outs. But I can make it two draws for the one bet by pushing all-in. Therfore, I am entitled to use the times two multiplyer, which I count as 30 outs, and he counts as 15 outs times two.
As for whether I am "a productive member", there is a little trick. Click on the link for my name, and choose "View all posts by....". Then you'll be in a position to judge how "productive" I am.
As for my sig, that's my poker personality. Do you think Hellmuth cares if people respect him? Do you think Phil Laak cares? No, Hellmuth and Laak realize that the lower peoples' estimation of them is, the easier it is to take their money. I don't play poker to make friends, I play poker to make money. But, since CC helps me make money (about $100 now) I do my share to educate people and contribute to discussions. Otherwise, I'd never lift a finger to wise up the suckers. And believe me when I tell you, I firmly believe that the rigid-thinkers with whom I argue, and those who listen to them, are the biggest suckers of all.
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GDRileyx
Rock Star
Platinum Level
This is actually a good point, that I overlooked. Whether or not the 4H is actually an out. Thanks for pointing that out.
Zorba
27
Platinum Level
I just curious on one thing, you replied to a question about a no limit hand, and you quote information from a person that you won't name, whose information was written about limit poker, that you have expanded to suit your needs more like it.
Stu is correct
GDRileyx
Rock Star
Platinum Level
On reflection, I probably went too far with the above statement. But it's too late to edit it.
There are people who don't know the first thing about poker who play, and they are the biggest suckers. But rigid-thinkers and system-players (and their disciples) are up there near the top of the sucker ladder. Fortunately, those people can't be wised up, so it does no harm to my bankroll to argue with them. My purpose in arguing with them is to present a diverse point of view, for open-minded people to consider. In those few open-minded people becoming a little wiser, there's where my contribution is. That's how I pay for my seat in the freerolls.
GDRileyx
Rock Star
Platinum Level
You misunderstood me.
I won't name the professional card player who wrote the book about card math. Me counting 30 outs is straight from that book, without adaptation. It is basic algebra. (15 outs) x (2) is 30 outs, if you are thinking algebraicly. There is no disputing it. It is simply more advanced math than is generally applied to poker. That is an entirely different book than the one upon which I expanded.
The anonymous poker pro who wrote the book Play Poker Like a Pigeon, and Take the Money Home, he won't name himself. He uses the pseudonym Poker Pigeon. I started a previous thread about this book, to which I just referred in this thread. While this book is about Limit, I have taken his concepts and applied them, in my own way, to No Limit.
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Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
LOL
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
Woah.. slow down braniac... algeb-what-icaly. Thats a tad advanced.
Oh I see why you get so defencive now.
This poll was really just a chance for you to plagiarise something from that 'play poker like a pigeon' book that your really like.
People have disagreed and this has prevented you passing off his ideas as your own.
If it wasn't for those pesky kids you'd have got away with it too.
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W
witl69
Rock Star
Silver Level
This was a reallyinteresting discussion to me and I learned some things I didnt kniow before but my question to you would have to be is how sick would you feel with that many out in a hand to push and then just flat miss it all?
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
What happens if you had 30 outs on the turn and 30 on the river? 60 outs? What if nlhe was a 7-street game so 4 more instead of 2 more cards to come? 15*4 = 60?
Going the non-poker route if it's 75% to rain on Saturday and 75% to rain on Sunday, is it 150% to rain for the weekend? Simply put even ignoring the fact that you're just using poker terminology completely wrong, you're also making an error in probability.
Going the non-poker route if it's 75% to rain on Saturday and 75% to rain on Sunday, is it 150% to rain for the weekend? Simply put even ignoring the fact that you're just using poker terminology completely wrong, you're also making an error in probability.
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
You can, but unless you first consider each street individually, you will never know if the shove is the correct decision.
Once you shove, sure you get to see 2 streets for one bet.. but is it correct?
If the stack sizes and bet sizes change a little, then maybe a fold is correct. Maybe a call followed by a fold if you don't hit is correct. Maybe the shove is still correct. You will never really know unless you consider the streets individually.
Where you are getting confused is that you are not CALLING a shove. You are shoving an already raised flop.
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Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
Oh and here is another factor.
I cannot be bothered to work out the odds for 30 outs, so I will use 8 and 16 outs for the example.
8 outs = 4.88:1 on the flop for the turn, 4.75:1 on the turn for the river and 2.18:1 combined.
16 outs = 1.94:1 on the flop for the turn, 1.88:1 on the turn for the river and 0.75:1 combined.
What you are saying is that 16 outs on the flop for the turn = 8 outs for the flop and turn combined.
or 2.18 = 1.94:1
Well it dosent!
The 16 outs figure is higher than the 8 outs combined over two streets figure.. so assuming 16 outs rather than 8 outs twice leads you to incorrectly estimate your odds.
So its not mathmatically correct either!!!
Oh yeah I can see 15 x 2 is far more advanced than my way of thinking.. that makes 30.
Ill try and remember that for next time... 15 x 2 = 30, and there was me thinking I needed to remember odds charts... dont I feel a fool!
I cannot be bothered to work out the odds for 30 outs, so I will use 8 and 16 outs for the example.
8 outs = 4.88:1 on the flop for the turn, 4.75:1 on the turn for the river and 2.18:1 combined.
16 outs = 1.94:1 on the flop for the turn, 1.88:1 on the turn for the river and 0.75:1 combined.
What you are saying is that 16 outs on the flop for the turn = 8 outs for the flop and turn combined.
or 2.18 = 1.94:1
Well it dosent!
The 16 outs figure is higher than the 8 outs combined over two streets figure.. so assuming 16 outs rather than 8 outs twice leads you to incorrectly estimate your odds.
So its not mathmatically correct either!!!
Oh yeah I can see 15 x 2 is far more advanced than my way of thinking.. that makes 30.
Ill try and remember that for next time... 15 x 2 = 30, and there was me thinking I needed to remember odds charts... dont I feel a fool!
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WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
I'm done with your thread GD. I wish I had left it at my original comment. It was right.
Dwilius
CardsChat Regular
Silver Level
ROFL
Roflstiltskin..and citing your own book, nice touch. Also if you have 15 outs on the turn you'll hit ~1/3 and won't hit ~2/3 so you would have to multiply that times the 15 on the river, you don't get bonuses for hitting your outs twice (and 2 hearts more likely hurt you obv).
Your arrogance is hysterical, keep the posts coming GDRiley :top:
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bob_tiger
Legend
Silver Level
popcorn please...
bob_tiger
Legend
Silver Level
first of all, is this a 9 max table or 6 max table, what kind of a solid player? lag? tag? this matters in determining the range, either way the range shouldnt be too big since its a "solid" play. and also like someone else said in the thread, not a single solid player will sit a table short stacked. Solid players are out to make money, you don't make money playing short stacked. You do indeed have an advantage as a short stack if you play correctly, which is basically shove or fold for most part, but in order to maximize your winrate you need a full stack in order to play "poker" not shortstack lottery. Also there is no way to have 30 outs, you are calculating wrong, so just stop arguing for the sake of the argument and accept that you are wrong because this thread has no point whatsoever and is retarded.
bob_tiger
Legend
Silver Level
care to show how?
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