Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[mottotom27]

Thinking about it only a queen or AA is realistically raising here . There is too much chance from your triple barrel you have a queen here and won't fold to punt off 58bb.
Doesn't mean we still can't chop or beat QJ. I would raise a Q here in the absence of any flush and likely straights especially QK. At these stakes I like your fold... interesting hand. Also interested to see you on the zoom tables not my personal choice, there are some very good regs in zoom I think I find more fish/recreationals on conventional tables where they are also easier to identify
Anyone else with some input?

i moved to zoom recently. i don't like the hassle of constantly opening and closing masses of tables in the regular format, it's distracting and i think it hinders my play. i've tried 6 tabling but then i get bored since i like fast action.

zoom gives me the action i crave whilst i can still concentrate easily on four tables at once, and i love the format and the fast fold button! my winrate has improved after i switched to zoom, not just my hourly (more volume) but also my bb/100.

but each to his own

 

[Figaroo2]

i moved to zoom recently. i don't like the hassle of constantly opening and closing masses of tables in the regular! my winrate has improved after i switched to zoom, not just my hourly (more volume) but also my bb/100.
but each to his own

I agree with all your points. regular 6 max tables can break up quickly once the fish disappears.
I have heard that better winrates are possible at zoom and clearly volume can be greater.
I think the reason I don't like them as much is the levels of aggression seem higher and it's harder to know when someone is simply out of line. I suppose once you have played in the pool for a week or so the regs stand out pretty quickly.
Maybe I will have a zoom month at some point as a development step, it might assist with some of my aggression issues.
I did play some zoom to knock off the new Pokerstars challenges over the weekend and wrapped up 4 buyins at 68bb/100 hands at lowly 1c/2c lol..

 

[John A]

BTN: 138.1 BB
SB: 133.2 BB (VPIP: 10.71, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 30)
BB: 51.5 BB (VPIP: 7.38, PFR: 3.70, 3Bet Preflop: 2.83, Hands: 249)
UTG: 100.5 BB (VPIP: 14.35, PFR: 8.97, 3Bet Preflop: 1.20, Hands: 226)
Hero (UTG+1): 100 BB
MP: 164.7 BB (VPIP: 40.00, PFR: 40.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)
MP+1: 155.2 BB (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
MP+2: 113.5 BB (VPIP: 18.87, PFR: 15.09, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 53)
CO: 74.5 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 2)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q<font color='black'>♠</font> K<font color='black'>♠</font>

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (7.5 BB, 2 players) Q<font color='black'>♣</font> Q<font color='red'>♥</font> A<font color='red'>♥</font>
Hero bets 4.8 BB, BTN calls 4.8 BB

Turn: (17.1 BB, 2 players) 4<font color='red'>♦</font>
Hero bets 11 BB, BTN calls 11 BB

River: (39.1 BB, 2 players) T<font color='red'>♦</font>
Hero bets 24 BB, BTN raises to 58 BB, fold

BTN wins 83.2 BB

Here's an interesting hand. I kinda wanted to throw up when he raised smallish on the river cos i thought my hand was strong but i just didn't know what i beat then. maybe a couple of QJ or QT combos if he chose to raise those?? or is he gonna show up with boats too often here? it's tough since there are hardly any combos that beat me but it's hard to see what i can beat here...

No stats? There's more combo's that beat you. QT, AQ, AA, KhJh. If I were looking into my crystal ball I'd put most of my money on KhJh even though it's the smallest of the combo bunch.

There's a good chance you're splitting also. It's close, but probably a marginally good fold. Stats would really help though.

 

[mottotom27]

No stats? There's more combo's that beat you. QT, AQ, AA, KhJh. If I were looking into my crystal ball I'd put most of my money on KhJh even though it's the smallest of the combo bunch.

There's a good chance you're splitting also. It's close, but probably a marginally good fold. Stats would really help though.

yea unfortunately that guy was the one player at the table i didn't have stats on

 

[mottotom27]

I think the reason I don't like them as much is the levels of aggression seem higher and it's harder to know when someone is simply out of line.

one thing to note is people play very spewy in blind wars, especially in blind vs blind spots. i've seen players bluff raise the flop with air, and barrel turn and river. so if i have top pair decent kicker vs an unknown b vs b then i'll sometimes just call down. if my kicker is weaker then i might check the flop, this also helps balance my checking range.

i think having a balanced checking range is an important adjustment to make in zoom imo, since the population tendency is to bet IP when the preflop raiser checks to them, so you can make money off check/calling with some decent top pairs as well as showdown value hands. i dropped my cbet % from 75 to 55 and it's been a big improvement for me. there's no need to be overly aggro at zoom, if anything i'd tighten up a bit.

 

[No Brainer]

So this is where all the 25nl people are hanging out nowdays? I am returning after a 4 year break and getting straight back into the cash grind. Played a few hands at 2nl/5nl/10nl over the last week or two to get the brain back into gear. Jumped up to 25nl today and I think that is where I will play for while I go over some of my old books, videos, articles etc.

I think one problem I had before was playing too many tables. I would get through the hands but would be on auto pilot the whole time I was playing, not thinking the decisions through enough. For now I plan on playing a max of 2 Zoom or 4 regular tables.

Looks like I have a lot to catch up on, read the book and get through 40 pages of this thread. Thanks John for all the info you are giving us here, at first glance it looks great!

 

[John A]

So this is where all the 25nl people are hanging out nowdays? I am returning after a 4 year break and getting straight back into the cash grind. Played a few hands at 2nl/5nl/10nl over the last week or two to get the brain back into gear. Jumped up to 25nl today and I think that is where I will play for while I go over some of my old books, videos, articles etc.

I think one problem I had before was playing too many tables. I would get through the hands but would be on auto pilot the whole time I was playing, not thinking the decisions through enough. For now I plan on playing a max of 2 Zoom or 4 regular tables.

Looks like I have a lot to catch up on, read the book and get through 40 pages of this thread. Thanks John for all the info you are giving us here, at first glance it looks great!

Yeah, join in. Most of the guys have started out at lower micro or small stakes, and we have the goal of getting everyone into the 100nl games. So that's kind of our range now - 2nl to 50nl (most 5nl to 25nl).

Everyone in the thread is supportive of each other. A good group of guys and people working on their games.

 

[JohnKlizer]

2nl to 50nl ... hoh

 

[John A]

I think that's the realistic range for this study group now. And if we get enough people moving up into the 25nl+ realm, then we'll push it further.

 

[rhombus]

Bet or take free card on Turn when equity improves
only 2 hands on villain
poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $10.21 (102.1 bb)
BB: $10.14 (101.4 bb)
UTG: $15.59 (155.9 bb)
MP: $10.32 (103.2 bb)
CO: $9.90 (99 bb)
Hero (BTN): $11.53 (115.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A

2

3 folds, Hero raises to $0.25, SB folds, BB raises to $1, Hero calls $0.75

Flop: ($2.05) 9

4

K

(2 players)
BB bets $1.07, Hero calls $1.07

Turn: ($4.19) 5

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero ?????

 

[Figaroo2]

This early id 4 bet, probably dominated as played.... Could bet to take control but Id take the freecard if we hit a backdoor flush.. lovely. Don't want to get raised off it now.

 

[rhombus]

This early id 4 bet, probably dominated as played.... Could bet to take control but Id take the freecard if we hit a backdoor flush.. lovely. Don't want to get raised off it now.

think as soon as i bet, I thinks its obv check and maybe bluff river if i dont hit

As played I bet and spewed when got raised prob out of frustration



Turn: ($4.19) 5

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.90, BB raises to $8.07 and is all-in, Hero calls $6.17

River: ($20.33) 8

(2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $20.33 pot ($0.91 rake)
Final Board: 9

4

K

5

8

BB showed T

A

and won $19.42 ($9.28 net)
Hero showed A

2

and lost (-$10.14 net)

 

[rhombus]

One thing I noticed tonight, a few occasions in the BB i had mid pocket pair 77 88 and 99, in general if middle player rasies 3BBs and maybe another calls, at what point do you 3bet.

Do you polarise and 3bet 22 33 44 QQ KK and AA and Call 55 - TT or just call 2-9s and 3Bet TT+

 

[mottotom27]

preflop seems spewy imo, raising to 2.5bb and calling a larger than average 3bet to 10bb with a speculative hand A2s and completely readless. 4betting is an option but given his large sizing i think it's less likely a bluff so i'm leaning towards a fold.

as played i would fold flop. all we have going for us is a backdoor draw and i think the king hits his range fairly well for 3betting. if the king was a 3 instead i'd much prefer a float.

turn is one of the best cards we could have hoped for. my first instinct was to bet since we can get some better hands to fold, but on reconsideration we do have some marginal showdown value with A high and don't wanna get raised off the hand with so much equity. i think with TJ of spades i'd be more inclined to bet turn.

i will bluff most rivers if he checks to us again (and value bet when we hit )

 

[mottotom27]

One thing I noticed tonight, a few occasions in the BB i had mid pocket pair 77 88 and 99, in general if middle player rasies 3BBs and maybe another calls, at what point do you 3bet.

Do you polarise and 3bet 22 33 44 QQ KK and AA and Call 55 - TT or just call 2-9s and 3Bet TT+

this is an interesting question. i don't like 3betting small pocket pairs because they have so little postflop playability and no blockers. with a raise and a call i'm usually calling with 22-TT (JJ sometimes) in the big blind. i don't really wanna 3bet TT vs a hijack open and especially not when there's a caller too since it's not a hand i wanna bloat the pot with multiway and we usually won't be ahead of the hijack's range for calling 3bets, same with JJ a lot of the time. so just setmine with all non-premium pairs and sometimes you can continue when you miss your set on good boards.

 

[mottotom27]

vs a hijack open and a caller the hands i like to squeeze with as a bluff are hands like AJo and KQo since they're often not strong enough to call with and also don't play well 3 way, so i think turning these hands into a bluff is the best strategy.

 

[Figaroo2]

preflop seems spewy imo, raising to 2.5bb and calling a larger than average 3bet to 10bb with a speculative hand A2s and completely readless. 4betting is an option but given his large sizing i think it's less likely a bluff so i'm leaning towards a fold.
as played i would fold flop. all we have going for us is a backdoor draw and i think the king hits his range fairly well for 3betting. if the king was a 3 instead i'd much prefer a float.
turn is one of the best cards we could have hoped for. my first instinct was to bet since we can get some better hands to fold, but on reconsideration we do have some marginal showdown value with A high and don't wanna get raised off the hand with so much equity. i think with TJ of spades i'd be more inclined to bet turn.
i will bluff most rivers if he checks to us again (and value bet when we hit )

I like this analysis Tom ++
And so we were dominated....and if we had 4 bet he might have folded

 

[Figaroo2]

One thing I noticed tonight, a few occasions in the BB i had mid pocket pair 77 88 and 99, in general if middle player rasies 3BBs and maybe another calls, at what point do you 3bet.
Do you polarise and 3bet 22 33 44 QQ KK and AA and Call 55 - TT or just call 2-9s and 3Bet TT+

Against MP only I'm only 3 betting TT+
Against LP only I'm 3 betting all pairs and A9s+
Squeezing I agree with your polarised range. I hate to fold away the equity of mid pairs to 4 bets.

 

[mottotom27]

I like this analysis Tom ++
And so we were dominated....and if we had 4 bet he might have folded

true, although i have to say villain's play was atrocious! first villain 3bets with a hand that in general plays much better as a flat (although in this case i guess he was doing it for value given how wide hero flatted). and then he check shoves a blank turn, potentially drawing dead ?? total spewtard imo

 

[mottotom27]

Against MP only I'm only 3 betting TT+
Against LP only I'm 3 betting all pairs and A9s+

i don't get this. why are you 3betting a depolarised range from the big blind vs a LP open? from the small blind i can understand (since bb can squeeze) but big blind why not polarised?

also where's the value of 3betting TT and JJ vs a MP open? vs a fish yes there's value. but vs unknowns or regs it sucks having to fold to a 4bet and typically will be a slight favourite at best vs their calling 3bets range. why turn such strong hands into coinflips?

 

[rhombus]

preflop seems spewy imo, raising to 2.5bb and calling a larger than average 3bet to 10bb with a speculative hand A2s and completely readless. 4betting is an option but given his large sizing i think it's less likely a bluff so i'm leaning towards a fold.

as played i would fold flop. all we have going for us is a backdoor draw and i think the king hits his range fairly well for 3betting. if the king was a 3 instead i'd much prefer a float.

turn is one of the best cards we could have hoped for. my first instinct was to bet since we can get some better hands to fold, but on reconsideration we do have some marginal showdown value with A high and don't wanna get raised off the hand with so much equity. i think with TJ of spades i'd be more inclined to bet turn.

i will bluff most rivers if he checks to us again (and value bet when we hit )

thanks, ive been mixing up my raise bet sizes from 2.5 -3 when no limpers and play low suited aces sometimes like pocket pairs/setmining so do agree that the call preflop was bad 75 cents and they only had $9 after their raise.

Setmining usually look for 15-20/1 so maybe only worth call if 50cents to call or as suggeted 4Bet and fold to 5Bet

 

[rhombus]

true, although i have to say villain's play was atrocious! first villain 3bets with a hand that in general plays much better as a flat (although in this case i guess he was doing it for value given how wide hero flatted). and then he check shoves a blank turn, potentially drawing dead ?? total spewtard imo

lucky for him the battle of the spewtard commenced

although on the Replayer when they shoved I was getting 2:29/1(30%) and equity was 34% but against his range which included alot of Kings probably wasnt that good

 

[Figaroo2]

3rd barrel against loose agg fishy player?

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $56.57 (226.3 bb)
BB: $20.44 (81.8 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): $25 (100 bb) showing 14/11/63% agg in 44 hands
UTG+2: $25 (100 bb)
MP1: $25 (100 bb)
MP2: $50.38 (201.5 bb)
MP3: $15.46 (61.8 bb) 32/22/ag%55 in 95 hands. 0% 3 bet. 100% call cbet.
CO: $25 (100 bb)
BTN: $30.99 (124 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 9

9

Hero raises to $0.75, 3 folds, MP3 calls $0.75, 4 folds

Flop: ($1.85) 4

8

T

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.88, MP3 calls $0.88

Turn: ($3.61) 6

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.72, MP3 calls $1.72

River: ($7.05) Q

(2 players)
Hero bets $5.04, MP3 folds

Results: $7.05 pot ($0.32 rake)
Final Board: 4

8

T

6

Q

Hero mucked 9

9

and won $6.73 ($3.38 net)
MP3 mucked and lost (-$3.35 net)

What do we think of this? his stack size is fishy but hes quite agg, I had the feeling he was just floating with a heart and if I checked he was betting the river and putting me in a spot. As I was UTG I figured the 3rd barrel might get some respect, i dunno. I was reviewing the hand and wasn't sure if i liked it.

 

[mottotom27]

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $56.57 (226.3 bb)
BB: $20.44 (81.8 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): $25 (100 bb) showing 14/11/63% agg in 44 hands
UTG+2: $25 (100 bb)
MP1: $25 (100 bb)
MP2: $50.38 (201.5 bb)
MP3: $15.46 (61.8 bb) 32/22/ag%55 in 95 hands. 0% 3 bet. 100% call cbet.
CO: $25 (100 bb)
BTN: $30.99 (124 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 9

9

Hero raises to $0.75, 3 folds, MP3 calls $0.75, 4 folds

Flop: ($1.85) 4

8

T

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.88, MP3 calls $0.88

Turn: ($3.61) 6

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.72, MP3 calls $1.72

River: ($7.05) Q

(2 players)
Hero bets $5.04, MP3 folds

Results: $7.05 pot ($0.32 rake)
Final Board: 4

8

T

6

Q

Hero mucked 9

9

and won $6.73 ($3.38 net)
MP3 mucked and lost (-$3.35 net)

What do we think of this? his stack size is fishy but hes quite agg, I had the feeling he was just floating with a heart and if I checked he was betting the river and putting me in a spot. As I was UTG I figured the 3rd barrel might get some respect, i dunno. I was reviewing the hand and wasn't sure if i liked it.

turn i might check/call. river i don't like the bet, you're not folding better nor getting worse to call. i think i probably just check/fold river, board keeps getting worse, so many combos out there that have you beat. sometimes you fold the best hand but what can you do?

 

[Figaroo2]

i don't get this. why are you 3betting a depolarised range from the big blind vs a LP open? from the small blind i can understand (since bb can squeeze) but big blind why not polarised?

I'm 3Betting with many of these hands because unless they are rocks we know that our opponent’s range is often weak and especially so if they rarely 4bet (nuts only) . I don't like calling because we don’t have the implied odds that we do when the raise comes from EP or MP. Also why play without the initiative out of position?. It was cold calling from the blinds that was hurting my redline. I want to be more polarised from in position BUT & CO