PLEASE more people play Omaha. Here's Why.

[glworden]

Now, I've always equated low flop %s to a maniac or 2 at the table who keeps raising, so everyone folds. There's no way, especially in Omaha HL that any hand would be totally folded to the BB. Am I missing something?

Yes, that's a good possibility. Either that or a table full of tighter i.e. better players. Either way it's not the kind of table you want to play at, because in the first situation the maniac interferes with your ability to see flops and destroys the multi-ways, and in the second - you really don't want a table full of skilled players. This is more important in Omaha than in Hold Em, since skill is a bigger factor in Omaha. Badger makes this point really well in that link from cp. High flop percentages are more important in Omaha than Hold Em. In Hold Em it might just be passive players who are folding to every raise, and those players aren't too hard to beat. Omaha is a good game as long as there is a big skill disparity at the table. A table full of highly skilled players would be a terrible terrible grind.

I rarely raise pre-flop, but there are instances you should do it. In limit, you should always do it with a strong hand. In pot limit, with a strong hand, especially in late position, I never bet pot if several have called in front of me. I will however do a min-raise or a little more. This is NOT to push anyone out of the hand. Like Gary says, you want the multi-way pot, especially if your hand is far stronger for either the hi or the lo, but not both. Rather, I do it so that in the event I hit my flop, I can come out with a fat raise to either 1) push people out and take the pot down, or 2) build a bigger pot faster, if I see fit. If I don't hit any part of the flop, I can then get off the hand with no major loss. In EP, I'll only raise with a very premium hand. Not sure my advice is any good, but that is my level of comfort.

Excellent points. Although as far as early position raises with a premium hand, I'd be reluctant to do them at all unless I knew there were a lot of callers at the table, and I'd be very careful about sizing my raise. Unlike Hold Em, you don't want to take it down to early. Omaha is a big pot game and you want those premium hands to generate a big pot. Don't kill it with aggressive early raises. This is, like I said, why the crossover hold em players really stick out like a sore thumb. They bet too big early, are easily gratified that they win a lot of pots (Wahoo!), but they leave a lot of money on the table. I complain about them, but I should just calm down, because it's exactly who I want to be playing against, especially if they can't lay the hand down after the flop.

Gary

 

[c9h13no3]

With PLO8, you're playing to scoop/quarter people (obviously). You're not playing to win 1 side of the pot or the other, you're playing to win both. I hate when people say "play for high first!" or "play for low first!". Its ridiculous. Play for both.

Raising preflop cuts down on the number of players postflop, which can often help your scooping/quartering chances. You can often quarter bad players with the nut low and top pair if the pot is heads up, but its pretty difficult to accomplish multi-way.

Additionally, raising preflop can often buy you position. The button should be limping with a wide range of hands preflop after a couple of other limps. But if you raise, you can often act last on all the later streets, which is a good thing.

And lastly, while the flop does change a lot in PLO8, some hands hit flops way better than others. A4KTr is a pretty speculative hand, and doesn't hit that many flops very hard. A23Kds, AA3Qds, or A2KQds on the other hand nails a ton of flops and you should be willing to push your preflop edge, even though it adds to your variance tremendously. Its much easier to play a big pot when you've raised preflop.

 

[Divebitch]

In EP, I'll only raise with a very premium hand.

Excellent points. Although as far as early position raises with a premium hand, I'd be reluctant to do them at all unless I knew there were a lot of callers at the table, and I'd be very careful about sizing my raise.

Oh, that was a 'given' that it would be a very small raise. As I said, in LP, my raise would be smallish, even truer for EP. We don't want a snowball to become Mr. Snowman by the time it's back to you.

With PLO8, you're playing to scoop/quarter people (obviously). You're not playing to win 1 side of the pot or the other, you're playing to win both. I hate when people say "play for high first!" or "play for low first!". Its ridiculous. Play for both.

you should be willing to push your preflop edge, even though it adds to your variance tremendously. Its much easier to play a big pot when you've raised preflop.

Maybe it wasn't directed at me, but certainly no one should be playing mainly for the low first. And of course you should play for both, but fact is, most playable hands are at least a little skewed more toward one or the other:

As2s3cKd (powerful low, good hi)
As3sKdQd (powerful hi, good low)
As2s3c4h (best low hand possible, only a barely decent hi, but you make that sacrifice)
AsKdQsJd (no low possible, but are you really gonna throw that away?)

Excellent point on the preflop raise. Usually don't give variance any thought, but guess the principle is that many small smart risks pay off in the longrun.

 

[FEARFACTOR]

Players Only used to have a $1000 PL OHL8 freeroll every week. In fact, last week they had two tourneys, exactly the same, running at the same time. I don't see any more scheduled for this week. Anybody know if they have stopped running them?

 

[c9h13no3]

As2s3c4h (best low hand possible, only a barely decent hi, but you make that sacrifice)

While its true, these are just low cards, the combination of 4 cards that work together, plus the suited ace allows you to hit flops exceptionally hard. For example, anytime you flop two pair with this hand, you will also have the nut low draw and a straight draw. 4 cards that work together is always going to be a much more dominant hand when playing for high.

AsKdQsJd (no low possible, but are you really gonna throw that away?)

In early position in a full ring game, I just might. Hands like this aren't especially strong because they usually have zero equity in half the pot. You don't want to make a big investment with hands like these preflop (since they're speculative), and its hard to know if you're going to see a cheap flop from early position. I'd rather limp this behind several other limpers, or raise it as a steal against the blinds.

 

[zachvac]

running out of suckers are we ?

this post reinforces my belief that poker in inherently evil...a pyramid scheme where the experienced prey on the beginner....

capatilism at its worst

do you ever feel like a leech? taking money from stupid people to the benefit of some corporation...

ok i feel better now...had to get that out.

back to work theres more suckers out there to skin!

You have a job? Where's the money come from? Sorry but life's a competition. Capitalism is how life works. The best advance at the expense of the worst. When you get a job basically you're saying "I have a skill set that you don't have, it's worth x$ to me but since you don't have it it's worth y$ to you so you pay me y$ and I'll work for you and turn a profit". The smarter/higher paid are typcially the ones who can maximize y. If there were other people as good they would of course make the higher wages as well. Same with poker. I work to maximize my edge and make money. Life/the economy/poker is a zero-sum game (although both are actually slightly negative, rake and taxes). When you make a profit someone else takes a loss. That's how it works. I'm gonna outwork everyone else though, so my edge is big. That goes for life when I go to school and am more qualified than the HS dropout and that goes for poker when I'm putting in the study time while others are just playing. It's how life is, work hard and get better or everyone else passes you by.

 

[glworden]

You have a job? Where's the money come from? Sorry but life's a competition. Capitalism is how life works. The best advance at the expense of the worst. When you get a job basically you're saying "I have a skill set that you don't have, it's worth x$ to me but since you don't have it it's worth y$ to you so you pay me y$ and I'll work for you and turn a profit". The smarter/higher paid are typcially the ones who can maximize y. If there were other people as good they would of course make the higher wages as well. Same with poker. I work to maximize my edge and make money. Life/the economy/poker is a zero-sum game (although both are actually slightly negative, rake and taxes). When you make a profit someone else takes a loss. That's how it works. I'm gonna outwork everyone else though, so my edge is big. That goes for life when I go to school and am more qualified than the HS dropout and that goes for poker when I'm putting in the study time while others are just playing. It's how life is, work hard and get better or everyone else passes you by.

I think he was just kidding, as evidenced by his last sentence. But you are right, and it's only fair that those who work harder profit more. I work hard at poker. It's not everybody's bag, and I'm glad. The game needs hobbyists, it needs those who only do it for fun, and it especially needs those who think it's all a matter of luck.

My point in starting this thread was to invite people to Omaha Hi/Lo. Selfish reasons were we need a bigger player base with more recreational players, and that the action junkies might actually have more fun with all those cards out there. Altruistic reasons are that for those who want to work at it, it's a consistently more profitable game than hold em.

Gary

 

[Nigel1963]

I wouldn't dare try playing omaha 2 years ago, didn't have a clue as to what it was. Now, I love playing it, if for no other reason than to have a break from hold'em. I play some horse and stud, but not so keen on them.

I will stick to the holdem games primarily and dabble in omaha, when feel the need to have a break from holdem.

 

[glworden]

i have player a few times did ok but you still have chasers and river beats

Yes, but sometimes those chasers are justified due to the higher number of outs in Omaha. Often the drawing hand has better odds of winning than the made hand. But sometimes, they're just clueless chasers, and that's OK too. You want opponents who play poorly and make mistakes.

 

[DawgBones]

OK so I decided to give this Omaha another whirl...just for a few hands of course. Went to FT and entered a game with only 1 player sitting at the table. Posted the bb and was dealt the hand. Boy I felt like the teacher just put a trigonometry test in front of me and I had been studying for the Algebra quiz. Then decided to dissect the four cards a little different this time. Maybe this is so basic that everyone already knows it but it seemed new to my brain. Looking at I tried to break it down. 2-9's decent high hand,possible spade flush with the nut hi and hi and low end of straight which could act as hi,low or both. Feeling fairly comfortable with a decent chance to take both high and low I called my opponents raise. Don't want to go through a hand analysis cause this isn't the place. Anyway the table filled and everyone seemed to hold true to what you said gl, not too many large raises just people looking to fatten the pot. Couple of times I just checked on the river when it was revealed afterwards that I had won( once with only trip 7's mind you) but the board looked a little concerning and my slow play probably gave away the fact that I was still new. Only saw one really large raise but that was on the river with only a high hand possible so that was understandable. Had fun and made a small profit to boot. Will be going back again...little at a time. Thanks again for the help and encouragement from you and DB. Btw this was in NL not PL

 

[shoshaku]

I can't remember who said it but:

"Omaha is a game invented by a sadist and played by masochists."

 

[Divebitch]

OK so I decided to give this Omaha another whirl...just for a few hands of course. Went to FT and entered a game with only 1 player sitting at the table. Posted the bb and was dealt the hand. Boy I felt like the teacher just put a trigonometry test in front of me and I had been studying for the Algebra quiz. Then decided to dissect the four cards a little different this time. Maybe this is so basic that everyone already knows it but it seemed new to my brain. Looking at I tried to break it down. 2-9's decent high hand,possible spade flush with the nut hi and hi and low end of straight which could act as hi,low or both. Had fun and made a small profit to boot. Will be going back again...little at a time. Thanks again for the help and encouragement from you and DB. Btw this was in NL not PL

Shortened your post, hope you don't mind. Yes, that's a decent hand HU (you'd fold it at a full table). How did it go? I'm still an amatuer, but I love the game, and glad to be of any help at all. Hope I don't hurt anything. Wow though, never played O8 NL, except for the freeroll at poker stars (and got a couple round 2 tix in it). This is a very wild game, even for a freeroll. Very tough to make the first break. But once you get past the crazies, it's almost shocking how tight it's played, even on that level. Congrats on your early success.

I can't remember who said it but:

"Omaha is a game invented by a sadist and played by masochists."

I've heard that too. In fact I heard it here first. And initially was stupified by this. :laugh: Guess it's not for everyone.

 

[Janon]

the nuts in omaha changes too quicck and often ,one of the only reason why i dont like it as much as holdem. but i over all still a fun game when i need a break from holdem

 

[channing73ny]

i agree

recently i started playing more omaha just because i was getting burnt out in no limit definately is good for the mind too switch up some times thx for sharing i vote too tr too get some omaha hi/lo games rolling here at cardschat

 

[glworden]

Btw this was in NL not PL

Glad you did well and had fun. I've never tried NL. The advantage of PL is that you usually can see speculative flops without some maniac putting you all in. Also, the art of pot-building in PL is one part of the game that's kind of fun.
Gary

 

[glworden]

the nuts in omaha changes too quicck and often ,one of the only reason why i dont like it as much as holdem. but i over all still a fun game when i need a break from holdem

That's exactly the heart of the game. Hand-reading skills are so important in Omaha because it's not so much about what is, but what could be. The suckouts in Hold Em are more brutal and surprising and often harder to see. Whereas in Hold Em a hidden set is hard to spot, in Omaha a hidden set at a full table has to be considered as likely. So if you have a flush or straight on the turn, you do your best to bet big and take away drawing odds, because if the board pairs on the river (25% chance, or 3:1 against), you're most likely beat and, if you are a disciplined player, will have to give up the hand. Paradoxically I find it easier to avoid bad beats in Omaha simply because it is a game of the nuts, and if you're not holding the nuts or near nuts, it's easier to lay it down. In Hold Em, hope lives a little longer.

In Omaha, the power hands are often the big drawing hands. Playing Omaha HL with Hold Em expectations will make you feel sucked out on a lot. To understand how your wrap-around straights can have over twenty outs for the nut draw (8 is the max in hold em), see the first part of Hwang's book. It's kind of mind-boggling. But keep in mind the first part of that book is for the high game only, so don't get confused and start playing those mid-range straight draws in a hi/lo game.

CP, I appreciate your comments. Your raising strategies are a little more advanced than what I'd intended to introduce in this thread - but you are right, there are definitely spots where you want to buy position or invest in prospective high hands. Holding AA, it makes good sense to thin the field and knock out prospective draws. I think in learning Omaha, playing tight and understanding the benefit of multi-way pots is lesson number one, then learning when to thin the field is lesson number two. But as is always the case against weak opposition, it's likely that your bets won't be understood and that your opponents won't fold, even though they should. In such cases, post-flop play remains your strongest option. As always, your actions depend on the tendencies of opponents and whatever specific situation you find yourself in.
Gary

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

Glad you did well and had fun. I've never tried NL. The advantage of PL is that you usually can see speculative flops without some maniac putting you all in. Also, the art of pot-building in PL is one part of the game that's kind of fun.
Gary

I've been playing NL lately. This takes the game to a whole new level. It is not for the fainthearted.

 

[DawgBones]

Shortened your post, hope you don't mind. Yes, that's a decent hand HU (you'd fold it at a full table). How did it go? I'm still an amatuer, but I love the game, and glad to be of any help at all. Hope I don't hurt anything. Wow though, never played O8 NL, except for the freeroll at Poker Stars (and got a couple round 2 tix in it). This is a very wild game, even for a freeroll. Very tough to make the first break. But once you get past the crazies, it's almost shocking how tight it's played, even on that level. Congrats on your early success.

I've heard that too. In fact I heard it here first. And initially was stupified by this. :laugh: Guess it's not for everyone.

Have your way with my post I don't mind. I folded this hand after the flop and min raise by opponent. Thanks for the heads up on the freerolls. Will try them for practice.

Glad you did well and had fun. I've never tried NL. The advantage of PL is that you usually can see speculative flops without some maniac putting you all in. Also, the art of pot-building in PL is one part of the game that's kind of fun.
Gary

Guess I was fortunate. The table seemed pretty mild mannered for a NL game. Only one pre-flop raise that resembled Holdem,only a few 3xbb raises during play and only one pot sized+ raise but again that was on the river with only a high hand possible. This was only about a half hour session and maybe the others were fairly new to the game as well.

 

[unchosen]

I haven't really looked into playing omaha but is there any tutorials I can look at?

 

[glworden]

I haven't really looked into playing omaha but is there any tutorials I can look at?

First, check the strategy articles here on CardsChat. Then check the Golden Archives and search the forums. Then go to that Steve Badger page linked to from earlier in this thread. Then get a good book. Make sure you understand which game you're playing. Hi Only, Hi/Lo, Limit and PL are all very different.

 

[SusieP]

I agree its a really fun game but everyone who hasnt played you need to study the game far more than what you do in holdem and the strategy is far different if you want to be a winning player, ignorance will kill you in PLO8