Moving from 2NL to 5NL....

[fx20736]

What? If you hold KK and an Ace hits you're raising flop donk bets IP? You do realize that one of the KEY ADVANTAGES of having position is that you can help control the size of the pot right? So what you're doing is bluffing with KK AND it's a bad bluff because nothing better is folding and almost nothing worse is calling. The pot only gets bigger, when you're behind.

So let's say you raise KK from the CO and get called by the BB. Flop is A72r and the BB leads out for 2/3 pot. You raise and he folds.

That is a HORRIBLE result for you. You've just forced your opponent to play perfectly against you and he can make no further mistakes in the hand.

Now instead of raising if you just call his flop bet how often do you think your OOP opponent will bet the turn with less than TP? No very, is correct. So if he bets again, you fold (unless it's a ridiculously small bet) and if he checks, you check behind to control pot size AND to possibly get a bet from a worse hand on the river. Playing the hand this way makes you more money when ahead AND costs you less money when behind.

Also don't think your opponent might fold a weak Ace to your flop raise. No one calls OOP with A-rag to fold it on an Ace high flop. Stop throwing your money away and wasting value playing your big pairs this way.

Not a fan of cbetting OOP either but that's better than your method for playing them IP vs a donk bet.

Ok, you got me on the re-raise when IP. I don't do it all the time but sometimes I do bluff here.

OOP, I do feel that having KK means playing a small pot, so cbetting has been better here than check/ calling. Occasionally you might check/ call here and get to a showdown with QQ or JJ but against a loose opponent who played lots of Aces the Ax is such a huge part of their range and TT-QQ is a small part it. I would say that most of the time I've check/ called on the Ace flop, I've had to fold to a bet on the turn, so I feel that calling OOP is just throwing my money away.

While we're talking about betting, maybe you can comment on this phenomenon I see at 2nl all the time. The 1bb donk bet followed by the 1bb turn bet, followed by the all-in on the River. Sometimes an opponent is giving me great odds to stay in with a smal pocket pair to hit a set by the river but If I am drawing to a straight or flush I generally re-raise them which inevitably is followed by a shove.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Ok, you got me on the re-raise when IP. I don't do it all the time but sometimes I do bluff here.

OOP, I do feel that having KK means playing a small pot, so cbetting has been better here than check/ calling. Occasionally you might check/ call here and get to a showdown with QQ or JJ but against a loose opponent who played lots of Aces the Ax is such a huge part of their range and TT-QQ is a small part it. I would say that most of the time I've check/ called on the Ace flop, I've had to fold to a bet on the turn, so I feel that calling OOP is just throwing my money away.

While we're talking about betting, maybe you can comment on this phenomenon I see at 2nl all the time. The 1bb donk bet followed by the 1bb turn bet, followed by the all-in on the River. Sometimes an opponent is giving me great odds to stay in with a smal pocket pair to hit a set by the river but If I am drawing to a straight or flush I generally re-raise them which inevitably is followed by a shove.

To your 1st point, if Ax is such a huge part of their range wouldn't you be better off ch/folding? Also to play a small pot, as you say you want to with KK on a A high board, do you recommend betting or checking? Also if you cbet and get called/raised doesn't it cost you about the same as if you ch/call? But by ch/calling you get to see a turn AND you get to see what your opponent does after you check again. Very often even when your opponent holds an Ace he'll check back the turn giving you the chance to see the river as well.

I think you answered your 2nd question yourself. If they're min donking and then shoving over a raise, it sounds like 2pair+ to me. My experience however, albeit not at 2nl, doesn't support this however as I have always generally raised the min donk when I have air/little SD equity and I generally get more folds than calls/shoves.

 

[fx20736]

To your 1st point, if Ax is such a huge part of their range wouldn't you be better off ch/folding? Also to play a small pot, as you say you want to with KK on a A high board, do you recommend betting or checking? Also if you cbet and get called/raised doesn't it cost you about the same as if you ch/call? But by ch/calling you get to see a turn AND you get to see what your opponent does after you check again. Very often even when your opponent holds an Ace he'll check back the turn giving you the chance to see the river as well.

I think you answered your 2nd question yourself. If they're min donking and then shoving over a raise, it sounds like 2pair+ to me. My experience however, albeit not at 2nl, doesn't support this however as I have always generally raised the min donk when I have air/little SD equity and I generally get more folds than calls/shoves.

awesome advice. Thanks. I keep saying, I can make decent assumptions but decisions are often A$$ backwards!!!!

 

[WVHillbilly]

awesome advice. Thanks. I keep saying, I can make decent assumptions but decisions are often A$$ backwards!!!!

You can also occasionally take the same lines (ch/calling when OOP, checking back when IP) when you hold a weakish Ace because A3s is essentially the same as KK on an Ace high board.

 

[Pascal-lf]

Your sample is too small to make conclusions.

The way you play a hand should not be influenced by your bankroll, ever. If that's the case you are playing at stakes too high for your bankroll so you should drop down. KK is the 2nd most powerful hand in Hold'em. You should not base your preflop play on whether you might run into AA or AK.You could flat call a large3bet and the flop could come down without an Ace, you could get it all in and still run into AA. You have to accept the fact that losing your stack is part of playing and being along term winner involves accepting this risk. You should play at stakes where you are not afraid to get stacked as long as you made the best decision based on your assumptions.

Postflop KK needs to be treated with a little caution if an Ace hits. There are different schools of thought on what to do here. My feeling and it is the way I play KK on an A high flop is to cbet if OOP or re-raise if IP. That Ace means I want the hand to end right there. If they fear the Ace and fold you made a small pot. If they call and you are OOP, you can check/fold the turn. A certain percentage of the times they will be bluffing but they'll have an Ace often enough at micros that it is better to fold. This also doesn't account for the times villain's turn bet/ raise is because he hit a set or two pair. Otherwise, if no Ace hits the flop and the board is dry bet big (pot sized) if you are against a fish or 1/2 pot against a decent player. Bet again on the turn, say 1/2 pot and on the River, say 1/3 pot. If you get re-raised it is ok to fold usually. There is no shame there. Just remember some of the times you will hit a set of Kings and be up against a smaller set, 2 pair or even AA.

Bankroll management = No Fear Poker.

(that's why i'm a 2nl troll)

You say you want the hand to end right there so you bet whenever there's an Ace on the board - surely that makes no sense?

The only reason the hand will then end is if they DON'T have an Ace, and you are ahead?

So basically you are saying:

If they have an Ace - "If I pay you xBB will you tell me if you have an Ace?" "I have an Ace" "Oh thanks"
If they don't have an Ace - "I have a better hand than you, please fold" "Oh OK"

I'm not saying that your bets or plays street by street are wrong, I'm saying that your reasoning is off IMO

 

[Big_Rudy]

I'm pretty new to poker and new to these forums as well, so bear with me if this goes wrong. This is a situation I face all the time. I'm IP with K-K v. EP/MP limper. I bet out and get flatted pre. Now the flop comes pretty ragged, but with an Ace. If its checked to me and I DON'T bet the flop (which is what I think you're saying is a better play), I can almost guarantee you I'll be facing a bet regardless of what the turn brings v. my missed CB.

Now what? My initial thought is either (a) villain has a weakish Ace and didn't bet the flopped Ace fearing I may hold a stronger Ace or (b) villain is way behind, but has decided to represent just such an A-rag type hand since I didn't CB. So, bearing in mind this is the micros, what is your move if you don't CB v. flop containing an Ace and then are facing a turn bet v. OOP villain? (Assume turn is of no obvious help to anyone) This is why I generally take the (inferior?) line of CB while holding K-K v. OOP villain when the flop contains an Ace.

 

[WVHillbilly]

I'm pretty new to poker and new to these forums as well, so bear with me if this goes wrong. This is a situation I face all the time. I'm IP with K-K v. EP/MP limper. I bet out and get flatted pre. Now the flop comes pretty ragged, but with an Ace. If its checked to me and I DON'T bet the flop (which is what I think you're saying is a better play), I can almost guarantee you I'll be facing a bet regardless of what the turn brings v. my missed CB.

Now what? My initial thought is either (a) villain has a weakish Ace and didn't bet the flopped Ace fearing I may hold a stronger Ace or (b) villain is way behind, but has decided to represent just such an A-rag type hand since I didn't CB. So, bearing in mind this is the micros, what is your move if you don't CB v. flop containing an Ace and then are facing a turn bet v. OOP villain? (Assume turn is of no obvious help to anyone) This is why I generally take the (inferior?) line of CB while holding K-K v. OOP villain when the flop contains an Ace.

So what you're saying is that they bet the turn regardless right? That's great. You call the turn and against some opponents you call again on the river (depending on bet size and how aggressive/bluffy they are). You get value when they are behind and you keep the pot as small as possible when they are ahead. You should almost never be cbetting an A high board with KK/QQ.

Here is a thread that goes into the WA/WB concept in detail : https://www.cardschat.com/f49/wa-wb-concept-76525/?highlight=WA/WB

 

[TheUndesirable]

100 buy-ins is just ridiculous. you don't need $500 to play 5NL. I'd say that the lowest number of buy-ins you want to have is 20 so $100 is about right. personally I prefer to have at least 30 buy-ins.

 

[Big_Rudy]

You should almost never be cbetting an A high board with KK/QQ.

Thanks for the tip. Its nice to see how more advanced players approach a problem like this. I'm going to give your thoughts a try. I can tell you from personal, recent experience at the micros that my line is more frequently taken. I'm not saying its right. In fact, I follow your logic and your play makes more sense. That's just not the standard play at the micros. Maybe that's why we're still micro players .

Just another quick question. You say you are calling a turn bet and against some players, depending upon their bluffiness, you are calling a river bet too. Is there ever a situation where (if you have a VERY tight image as I do (about 10/7), that you are calling the turn and RAISING a river bet IP, or is that more micro spewiness?

 

[fx20736]

What? If you hold KK and an Ace hits you're raising flop donk bets IP? You do realize that one of the KEY ADVANTAGES of having position is that you can help control the size of the pot right? So what you're doing is bluffing with KK AND it's a bad bluff because nothing better is folding and almost nothing worse is calling. The pot only gets bigger, when you're behind.

So let's say you raise KK from the CO and get called by the BB. Flop is A72r and the BB leads out for 2/3 pot. You raise and he folds.

That is a HORRIBLE result for you. You've just forced your opponent to play perfectly against you and he can make no further mistakes in the hand.

Now instead of raising if you just call his flop bet how often do you think your OOP opponent will bet the turn with less than TP? No very, is correct. So if he bets again, you fold (unless it's a ridiculously small bet) and if he checks, you check behind to control pot size AND to possibly get a bet from a worse hand on the river. Playing the hand this way makes you more money when ahead AND costs you less money when behind.

Also don't think your opponent might fold a weak Ace to your flop raise. No one calls OOP with A-rag to fold it on an Ace high flop. Stop throwing your money away and wasting value playing your big pairs this way.

Not a fan of cbetting OOP either but that's better than your method for playing them IP vs a donk bet.

Full Tilt - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
BTN: $2.90
SB: $2.47
BB: $3.59
UTG: $1.98
UTG+1: $1.65
MP: $2.28
MP+1: $2.40
Hero (LP): $2.27
CO: $0.67
SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02
Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero has K♥ K♠
fold, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to $0.06, Hero raises to $0.24, fold, fold, fold, fold, MP+1 calls $0.18
Flop: ($0.51, 2 players) T♥ A♥ 4♠
MP+1 checks, Hero checks
Turn: ($0.51, 2 players) T♠
MP+1 checks, Hero bets $0.20, MP+1 raises to $0.50, Hero calls $0.30
River: ($1.51, 2 players) 7♠
MP+1 checks, Hero checks
MP+1 shows Q♦ Q♥ (Two Pair, Queens and Tens)
Hero shows K♥ K♠ (Two Pair, Kings and Tens)
Hero wins $1.41

 

[WVHillbilly]

Thanks for the tip. Its nice to see how more advanced players approach a problem like this. I'm going to give your thoughts a try. I can tell you from personal, recent experience at the micros that my line is more frequently taken. I'm not saying its right. In fact, I follow your logic and your play makes more sense. That's just not the standard play at the micros. Maybe that's why we're still micro players .

Just another quick question. You say you are calling a turn bet and against some players, depending upon their bluffiness, you are calling a river bet too. Is there ever a situation where (if you have a VERY tight image as I do (about 10/7), that you are calling the turn and RAISING a river bet IP, or is that more micro spewiness?

Raising the river would be spew. The number 1 mistake people make at all levels but especially micro stakes is that they call too much, so don't reward them by bloating the pot when they're only calling when you're beat.

Here was an OOP turn and river call with QQ from my session last night. Villain was fairly tight but very aggressive.

Full Tilt - $1 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BB: $102.75
Hero (UTG): $102.50
UTG+1: $245.60
MP: $103.65
MP+1: $200.80
CO: $36.65
BTN: $144.85
SB: $103.30

SB posts SB $0.50, BB posts BB $1.00

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero has Q:heart: Q:diamond:

Hero raises to $3.00, fold, fold, MP+1 calls $3.00, fold, fold, fold, BB calls $2.00

Flop: ($9.50, 3 players) A:diamond: 6:spade: 6:heart:
BB checks, Hero checks, MP+1 checks

Turn: ($9.50, 3 players) 2:diamond:
BB checks, Hero checks, MP+1 bets $6.00, fold, Hero calls $6.00

River: ($21.50, 2 players) 7:heart:
Hero checks, MP+1 bets $16.00, Hero calls $16.00

MP+1 shows K:spade: Q:spade: (One Pair, Sixes) (PreFlop 36%, Flop 19%, Turn 7%)
Hero shows Q:heart: Q:diamond: (Two Pair, Queens and Sixes) (PreFlop 64%, Flop 81%, Turn 93%)
Hero wins $50.85

He pretty much bets the turn here 100% since 2 people have checked to him twice so the turn call is a no-brainer but the reason I called the river bet in this particular case was that of the 8 rivers I had on him he had bet 7 of them. Sometimes he has an Ace and we pay him off and that's fine because we've played our hand as well as possible.

If he had been a looser (more Aces in his range) or more passive (less likely to bet without an Ace) player the river is generally a fold.

 

[Big_Rudy]

Thanks for your thoughts and the hand demonstrating them in practice. That helps a lot. This forum ROCKS! Maybe I'll even manage to get out of the micros (eventually) .

 

[k1ngd0nk]

Sorry have not read whole thread but I would recommend going directly from 2nl to 10nl, skip the unnecessary 5nl part. Meaning you just get like 400-500 at 2nl and go directly to 10.
Cheers