WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
bgomez89
Resident Thugmaster
Silver Level
protip, never fold kings preflop in 100bb games
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fx20736
Legend
Silver Level
Yes, I'm aware. I have some anxieties to work out and would prefer to not be stressed about this before the Holidays. Now, if by some chance I went on a sick heater and my BR doubled I would then take a shot.
And I really do think I suck at Poker. Aside from memorizing EV charts and knowing some percentages I'm pretty bad. But CC has improved me alot.
:icon_sunn
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fx20736
Legend
Silver Level
Ok, so I slept on it and woke up thinking that I am an uber nit. I realized that playing 4 tables of 5NL was putting a little less in play than my usual 12X2NL tables so I took deep breaths and said, I am going to play my game, wait for situations and be patient. So I played a 44 minute session.
Just one session but it did build some confidence.
One of the tables featured a Hyper Aggro Maniac. His session stats were 81/45/ 4 with an aggression freq of 66.67 and who went to showdown 34% of the time. Two orbits in I played this hand with him.
Full Tilt - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
CO: $5.00
BTN: $5.00
SB: $1.76
BB: $5.78
UTG: $5.07
Hero (UTG+1): $5.20
MP: $3.12
MP+1: $5.00
LP: $11.19
SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has K♠ K♣
fold, Hero raises to $0.20, fold, fold, LP calls $0.20, fold, fold, SB calls $0.18, BB calls $0.15
Flop: ($0.80, 4 players) 2♠ 2♥ A♦
SB checks, BB bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80, fold, fold
Turn: ($2.40, 2 players) 6♣
BB bets $2.40, Hero calls $2.40
River: ($7.20, 2 players) 8♠
BB bets $2.38 and is all-in, Hero calls $1.80 and is all-in
BB shows 2♦ 5♦ (Three of a Kind, Twos)
Hero mucks K♠ K♣ (Two Pair, Kings and Twos)
BB wins $10.08
With his PFR I thought that having an Ace was such a small part of his range that I could call him all the way down. Boy was I surprised by his hand. This hand kind of tilted me and I wanted to nail him. 3 hands later I got my chance:
Full Tilt - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
MP: $5.00
MP+1: $1.56
CO: $8.88
BTN: $5.00
Hero (SB): $5.00
BB: $5.00
UTG: $5.00
UTG+1: $15.47
Hero posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has T♦ T♥
fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to $0.10, fold, Hero raises to $0.55, fold, CO calls $0.45
Flop: ($1.15, 2 players) 3♠ 7♦ 8♦
Hero bets $1.15, CO raises to $2.30, Hero raises to $4.45 and is all-in, CO calls $2.15
Turn: ($10.05, 2 players) 7♠
River: ($10.05, 2 players) T♠
CO shows 4♦ 3♦ (Two Pair, Sevens and Threes)
Hero shows T♦ T♥ (Full House, Tens full of Sevens)
Hero wins $9.38
He sat out after that one for a few hands. Then he and I played this:
Full Tilt - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
MP: $5.49
CO: $5.00
BTN: $2.62
SB: $3.35
BB: $5.38
Hero (UTG): $9.38
UTG+1: $5.00
SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has J♥ A♥
Hero raises to $0.17, fold, fold, fold, fold, SB calls $0.15, fold
Flop: ($0.39, 2 players) 6♠ K♦ 2♥
SB checks, Hero checks
Turn: ($0.39, 2 players) A♦
SB checks, Hero bets $0.39, SB calls $0.39
River: ($1.17, 2 players) 6♦
SB bets $0.25, Hero raises to $1.92, fold
Hero wins $1.56
He was starting to limp and fold after that. Then came his final hand. I opened UTG with AQ and got 3bet by an unknown in MP. Predictably maniac 4bet. I 5bet to isolate and actually thought I shoved preflop and was a little surprised that MP called:
Full Tilt - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
LP: $5.17
CO: $6.09
BTN: $2.05
SB: $1.76
BB: $5.31
Hero (UTG): $10.18
UTG+1: $5.00
MP: $5.00
MP+1: $5.56
SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has A♦ Q♠
Hero raises to $0.17, fold, MP raises to $0.45, fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to $1.76 and is all-in, fold, Hero raises to $3.07, MP calls $2.62
Flop: ($7.95, 3 players) A♠ 6♦ 9♣
Hero bets $7.11 and is all-in, fold
Turn: ($7.95, 2 players) 8♦
River: ($7.95, 2 players) 2♦
SB shows K♥ Q♥ (High Card, Ace)
Hero shows A♦ Q♠ (One Pair, Aces)
Hero wins $7.42
So, I think I am going to go from 12 x 2NL to 3x5NL+5X2NL and see how it goes. The worst that can happen is I go back to being a shark in the fishbowl.
Anyway, sorry for annoying everyone with my psychodrama, so here's a little reward:
Attachments
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Big_Rudy
Legend
Silver Level
I see from the hands you posted that you play on Full Tilt. I don't know if they have anything similar or not since I only play on pokerstars, but when I first move up to a new level I usually start at the short buy-in tables. For example, right now I'm playing .05-.10, but only on the short buy-in tables. So, at each table I'm only buying-in for $5, which is the table maximum. Although I am a bankroll nit and am comfortably rolled for this level, it still puts me a little more at ease when I move up to only play half-stack poker. I'm risking less of my BR on each table, yet still get to move up to the next higher level.
Before I get flamed, let me make it clear... I am NOT playing short-stack poker. I am buying in for the MAX, just playing at the short-stack tables. This may be crazy, but it works for me. Eventually I do move to the full-stack tables after I get comfortable at the new stakes. There does seem to be a difference in player ability between the full and short-stack tables too. Right now I'm at about 2.5BB/100 over 45K hands at the short buy-in tables and have just begun to move up to the full stack tables. Unfortunately, between a mix of poor play, tilt, and coolers plus a very small sample size, I'm actually currently a losing player at the full-stack .05-.10 tables and am running about -5BB/100 over 15K hands. So be aware if you use my strategy, don't get too comfortable beating-up on the short-stackers, because you'll likely have to twaek your play a little as you move to the full-stack tables.
Before I get flamed, let me make it clear... I am NOT playing short-stack poker. I am buying in for the MAX, just playing at the short-stack tables. This may be crazy, but it works for me. Eventually I do move to the full-stack tables after I get comfortable at the new stakes. There does seem to be a difference in player ability between the full and short-stack tables too. Right now I'm at about 2.5BB/100 over 45K hands at the short buy-in tables and have just begun to move up to the full stack tables. Unfortunately, between a mix of poor play, tilt, and coolers plus a very small sample size, I'm actually currently a losing player at the full-stack .05-.10 tables and am running about -5BB/100 over 15K hands. So be aware if you use my strategy, don't get too comfortable beating-up on the short-stackers, because you'll likely have to twaek your play a little as you move to the full-stack tables.
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fx20736
Legend
Silver Level
thanks. Not sure what the short stack tables look like. Is it 60BB/ 40???
It's good that you are aware of some of the reasons why you are losing. I tried to play some 5nl last week but lost 3+ buy-ins so am back down to 2nl. Sadly I have lost some of my equillibrium and am tilting a little. It doesn't help that I lost AA to AK (you know your running bad when you lose as a 93% favorite)and ran into sets with AA & KK several times in the past two days. I am really trying to be patient and keep my cool and not get any further in the hole. Like a mantra I keep telling myself, it's only my bad plays that should upset me. If I get my money in correctly the outcome of any individual hand doesn't matter. I know that intellectually and I am pretty far along emotionally but losing does put me on tilt a little which for me means I go a little shovetard at times. Fortunately I had been running really well so my BR is still at 55 BI for 2nl. Until I resolve some more issues with my game I don't really want to go anywhere. It looks like if I do become successful at Poker it will be a long road.
twoturntablez
Rock Star
Silver Level
I read this so much, and beleive I play accordingly, I played 9.5k hands and made KK 49 times and was still down $8.
QQ was killing me after 48 hands although now is $2.02+.
I had lost $9 over this whole period and realise im still a little too loose.
Frustrated by the play sometimes and catching the wrong end of my 58%ers too often i was still kind of happy that I had made it to 9.5k hands without losing too much. Hopefully there are some fine tunings that can be made to get myself above break even.
The kings eh, well after just a few hundred more hands and a decision to play 02./04 instead I got the correct math probabilitis in my favour and they now profit by $7.72 so theyve not only swung back but helped move my $24 2nl roll to $47.
I made it to 10k hands a winning player yay! ( yes yes too small a sample) but
yay!I am still dubious now as to whether aiming to get it all in preflop should be our biggest aim if we are a player who does not have a large bankroll, lets say $50. We raise and Ax calls. We 3x and 4x with the kings and then end up in a large pot where it seems, there will be an ace good deal. Especially if you got it all in preflop. After reading the spoof check call/ limit losses strategy, this advice seemd to ring in my ears about KK.
At the lowest limits, many hands call KK, and beat it their share too.
Im still out to lunch on kings, if my current trend continues and I keep winning then I'll carry on stuffing the lot in preflop, should we ever just flat call the 4bet or just jam anyway, after all who is folding if the betting goes 8, 24, 72, is anybody folding for 1.28 more after betting 72c.
KK such a great hand but can we get our money in in better spots over the next 1k hands with 45h on the big blind or when we get our flop 2pr or straight/flush draw hands, or simply nice made hands instead of going for a $2 risk with one pair.
Im not so poker articulate yet sorry.
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Big_Rudy
Legend
Silver Level
On Stars the short-stack tables limit your buy-in to between 20 and 50BB, so if you buy-in full you're still only playing $5 on the 5-10c tables. You could buy-in at the low end for only $2 on these tables, but I don't recommend that.
The full-stack tables on Stars have buy-ins ranging from 40 or 60BB to a max of 100BB so if you bought-in full you'd be playing with a $10 stack on each table. My method lets me try new levels while only risking half as much money on any one table, at least until I get comfortable with the new level, then I move to the full-stack tables.
Stars also offers a limited number of deep stack tables with buy-ins of between 100 and 250BB, but I've never played them. These tables also feature antes collected from each player as well as the normal blind structure. This has the effect, usually, of inflating the betting since there is more in the pot to begin with.
The full-stack tables on Stars have buy-ins ranging from 40 or 60BB to a max of 100BB so if you bought-in full you'd be playing with a $10 stack on each table. My method lets me try new levels while only risking half as much money on any one table, at least until I get comfortable with the new level, then I move to the full-stack tables.
Stars also offers a limited number of deep stack tables with buy-ins of between 100 and 250BB, but I've never played them. These tables also feature antes collected from each player as well as the normal blind structure. This has the effect, usually, of inflating the betting since there is more in the pot to begin with.
BelgoSuisse
Legend
Silver Level
Post of the month, imo. Short but enlightening.
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fx20736
Legend
Silver Level
I'm not glorifying anything. I've delayed moving up because I'm still a bad poker player. I sometimes make bad assumptions. Sometimes I make correct assumptions but make bad decisions based on flawed logic. When I was in my teens and twenties I could do trig problems in my head, but at my age my math skills have grossly deteriorated. Combine that with the fact that I'm a bankroll nit who doesn't want to ever deposit another dollar and 2nl is just right for me, thanks. In this morning's session I undid all the damage I did by taking a shot at 5nl and then the subsequent tilt I went on.
I am debating my next step which I would like to include some kind of Poker Coaching, whether it is something like dragthebar, cardrunners, etc. or a private tutor. I know I need someone to sit down with me and challenege my assumptions and decisions in real time.
Until I can crystallize that plan I will continue to play 2nl as most of the players there are worse than me and it allows me to build my bankroll and experiment with different ideas. This morning I realized that I had become lost in too many hands played and had forgotten what had been successful for me so far; play tight, play raise or fold preflop. Where I have improved is opening up my game in late position and the button. Yesterday I actually had a VPIP on the button of 53.7 with a very small profit but which I hoped would create some metagame benefit when I had a monster. That was actually exhausting to play and defend the button that much but this morning's session I successfully played a 43/36 game from the button as opposed to a 2/2 game from UTG.
Every day is a learning experience for me. I know I'm getting better, albeit slowly.
btw: how do I copy/ paste or insert Pokerstove evals in a post? I tried playing with it last night and I could only save the results as a .pst file which I thought was for archiving e-mails in Microsoft Outlook.
Pascal-lf
Legend
Silver Level
Get some friends
Like, not in that way! Casually chatting about hands with friends is just as good as coaching IMO. Get some Skype contacts, etc - I've got a bunch from 2+2 - and it's a big help.
Oh and don't worry about metagame at micros. You could play 0/0 for 200 hands at 2NL and then raise AA UTG and if they've got QQ it's still going in
Like, not in that way! Casually chatting about hands with friends is just as good as coaching IMO. Get some Skype contacts, etc - I've got a bunch from 2+2 - and it's a big help.
Oh and don't worry about metagame at micros. You could play 0/0 for 200 hands at 2NL and then raise AA UTG and if they've got QQ it's still going in
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fx20736
Legend
Silver Level
LMAO!Get some friends
Like, not in that way! Casually chatting about hands with friends is just as good as coaching IMO. Get some Skype contacts, etc - I've got a bunch from 2+2 - and it's a big help.
Oh and don't worry about metagame at micros. You could play 0/0 for 200 hands at 2NL and then raise AA UTG and if they've got QQ it's still going in
You made my morning! Thanks!!!
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Big_Rudy
Legend
Silver Level
^^This.^^
I'm normally an uber-nit anyway, running about 10/7 0ver 50K hands at .05-.10, but when I get into a bad patch or a little too big of a downswing, I tighten-up even more. I've been on such a downswing for the past couple of days so today I played a short session running at 7/5. Sure enough, still called-down every time I raised big (even got re-raised once after a large river bet). Finished the session with 100% W$SD (won$at showdown) and +44BB/100. Nice.
I've often wondered just how tight you can actually be and still show a profit at the micros. Apparently there is no limit. I know I've had decent winning sessions running with a vpip of 5 or 6. Makes you wonder what your opponents are thinking.
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fx20736
Legend
Silver Level
Wow, I've been running 14/11 over the past 50k hands and thought I was tight. I do see the 8/5 guys routinely. Generally when they raise I just fold without a pocket pair or AK. Occasionally I'll try to call or even 3bet with suited connectors like 76s but haven't seen that pay off much.
What is your default opening range by position? If you truly play that tight you must folding AQ 99 88 from EP. I am thinking about going back to my old UTG standards of TT+ AQs+ AKo as EP is not good for making money, especially since I now have opened up my VPIP on the button from 22-24 and now run 34-35% from there (I'll now open raise hands llike 85o from the button until the blinds start 3betting me more).
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Deceitful_Frank
Rock Star
Silver Level
I am an 11/9 now at full ring 5NL. UTG default at a full table is 99+ AQs+ which is pretty damn tight but I start to loosen up a lot towards LP. I will generally raise a couple limpers from the button with KTo or QJo and default blind steal down to K6o, J9o any ace etc. Perhaps this is a little too loose but I am more than happy to get stuck in post flop IP.
I have never been one for stealing with ATC till they adjust. I just look at stats and stack sizes etc.
I have also gone back down from 6-4 tables. Playing this tight it can seem painfully slow but I can use the extra time to really take advantage of all info available, try to make every bet perfect and look as large or as small as I want given the situation and what I want to achieve.
Most recently I have begun to defend my blinds and now take into account my position, their position, their stacks and what I think they think of me.
My default play will see me defending a button steal with AJo, 88+ when I am in the BB.
Strangely I am also starting to think that the gap concept when merely calling a LP steal when I am in the blinds is reversed. I find myself thinking I can call with a worse hand than I would raise with!
Earlier I was in the BB, the button, a witless 60/30 with a steal of 90 (over 120 hands) attempted a steal. The SB wasn't interested and I look down and see K8s!
I didn't feel I could 3-bet but I guessed if I called and a king came with no ace I'd probably be in good shape.
A king came, I donked in to him and he folded.
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Big_Rudy
Legend
Silver Level
I'm nearly always the tightest guy at any table I play, yet I still get paid-off enough to be profitable. My typical EP opening range is:
99+, A-Qs, A-Kos.
My Vpip stays so low since I don't expand my range enough as I move into later positions. I know I'm leaving money on the table, but when I'm playing poorly/ making mistakes/ lacking confidence in my game my LP opening range (unless I have really good reads on players to act after me and the blinds) is:
88+, A-10s, A-Jos, K-Js, and K-Qos.
That's about it. No connectors, no one gappers, no weak Aces etc. Riducously tight, I know. But I, at least with my current ability, cannot play a much wider range and remain profitable. That's my number one goal, learn to turn a profit with a wider range of hands. Until then, I'll remain a super-nit and continue to get paid-off by the clueless.
99+, A-Qs, A-Kos.
My Vpip stays so low since I don't expand my range enough as I move into later positions. I know I'm leaving money on the table, but when I'm playing poorly/ making mistakes/ lacking confidence in my game my LP opening range (unless I have really good reads on players to act after me and the blinds) is:
88+, A-10s, A-Jos, K-Js, and K-Qos.
That's about it. No connectors, no one gappers, no weak Aces etc. Riducously tight, I know. But I, at least with my current ability, cannot play a much wider range and remain profitable. That's my number one goal, learn to turn a profit with a wider range of hands. Until then, I'll remain a super-nit and continue to get paid-off by the clueless.
brank
Back in!
Silver Level
There is nothing wrong with being as tight as you are in the micros if you can handle it, I assume you're playin more then 1 table. I hope that you set mine vs other nits like you tho as it can be hugely profitable. Most UTG ranges from nits will pay you off when you hit a set.
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fx20736
Legend
Silver Level
I know why you want to play this way but you will not make money long term playing this narrow of a range. Observant opponents will generally fold to your raises, some will float on you and try to push you off your hands because they know when you don't have the nuts you'll fold to a big raise.
Your EP range is fine. Mine is (back to) TT+ AQs+ AKo but your LP is exactly my MP range. You need to loosen up as you approach the button.
A rule of thumb is this:
When UTG you should look for a reason to fold.
When on the button you should look for a reason not to fold if it is folded to you. Take advantage of your tight table image and steal the blinds with almost ATC.
Why don't you try this range for a few thousand hands and report back:
EP: TT+ AQS+ AKo
MP: 88+ ATs+ AQo+ KJs+ QJs
Hijack (LP1): 55+ A7s+ AJo+ KTs+ KQo QTs+ JTs
CO: Any pair, any suited Ace, ATo+ Any two Broadway, any two suited 9 or better any suited connector down to 76s, any suited gappers to 86.
Button: All of the above PLUS any suited King, K8o+ PLUS amy suited OR offsuit connectors, gappers or two gappers down to 85o.
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Big_Rudy
Legend
Silver Level
No, I really don't set-mine at all. I would probably do this if I played at the full-stack tables, but I'm currently playing the Short-stack tables (still buying in full though). What happens at these tables is there is not usually the implied odds to set mine.
Its not at all unusual to see 1/2 to 3/4 of the table sitting on the minimum stack size ($2). So if another nit opens, they are usually not limping, they are usually raising to 30-40c (3-4BB) and this only leaves them about $1.60 behind, not enough to be profitable if you should hit your set.
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Big_Rudy
Legend
Silver Level
Grrrr..... I'm starting to have a real issue with this forum. I typed out a very detailed response to your suggestions, TWICE, and each time, as I went to post it I found out I had been auto logged-off the site and my response deleted before I could post it. What is the time-limit for opening and entering a response on this site. Apparently its pretty short.
Anyway, short and sweet so I don't get auto logged off YET AGAIN while I'm responding.
Thanks a lot for your starting hands chart. I'm going to try to expand my range using your chart a a guideline, but I'm going to do it slowly over time. I feel its just too big a change to make all at once and still be profitable. The problem, as I see it, is if I just simply jumped to your starting requirements I'd find mysel in too many spots where I'd be lost.
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fx20736
Legend
Silver Level
I read this so much, and beleive I play accordingly, I played 9.5k hands and made KK 49 times and was still down $8.
QQ was killing me after 48 hands although now is $2.02+.
I had lost $9 over this whole period and realise im still a little too loose.
Frustrated by the play sometimes and catching the wrong end of my 58%ers too often i was still kind of happy that I had made it to 9.5k hands without losing too much. Hopefully there are some fine tunings that can be made to get myself above break even.
The kings eh, well after just a few hundred more hands and a decision to play 02./04 instead I got the correct math probabilitis in my favour and they now profit by $7.72 so theyve not only swung back but helped move my $24 2nl roll to $47.
I made it to 10k hands a winning player yay! ( yes yes too small a sample) but
I am still dubious now as to whether aiming to get it all in preflop should be our biggest aim if we are a player who does not have a large bankroll, lets say $50. We raise and Ax calls. We 3x and 4x with the kings and then end up in a large pot where it seems, there will be an ace good deal. Especially if you got it all in preflop. After reading the spoof check call/ limit losses strategy, this advice seemd to ring in my ears about KK.
At the lowest limits, many hands call KK, and beat it their share too.
Im still out to lunch on kings, if my current trend continues and I keep winning then I'll carry on stuffing the lot in preflop, should we ever just flat call the 4bet or just jam anyway, after all who is folding if the betting goes 8, 24, 72, is anybody folding for 1.28 more after betting 72c.
KK such a great hand but can we get our money in in better spots over the next 1k hands with 45h on the big blind or when we get our flop 2pr or straight/flush draw hands, or simply nice made hands instead of going for a $2 risk with one pair.
Im not so poker articulate yet sorry.
Your sample is too small to make conclusions.
The way you play a hand should not be influenced by your bankroll, ever. If that's the case you are playing at stakes too high for your bankroll so you should drop down. KK is the 2nd most powerful hand in Hold'em. You should not base your preflop play on whether you might run into AA or AK.You could flat call a large3bet and the flop could come down without an Ace, you could get it all in and still run into AA. You have to accept the fact that losing your stack is part of playing and being along term winner involves accepting this risk. You should play at stakes where you are not afraid to get stacked as long as you made the best decision based on your assumptions.
Postflop KK needs to be treated with a little caution if an Ace hits. There are different schools of thought on what to do here. My feeling and it is the way I play KK on an A high flop is to cbet if OOP or re-raise if IP. That Ace means I want the hand to end right there. If they fear the Ace and fold you made a small pot. If they call and you are OOP, you can check/fold the turn. A certain percentage of the times they will be bluffing but they'll have an Ace often enough at micros that it is better to fold. This also doesn't account for the times villain's turn bet/ raise is because he hit a set or two pair. Otherwise, if no Ace hits the flop and the board is dry bet big (pot sized) if you are against a fish or 1/2 pot against a decent player. Bet again on the turn, say 1/2 pot and on the River, say 1/3 pot. If you get re-raised it is ok to fold usually. There is no shame there. Just remember some of the times you will hit a set of Kings and be up against a smaller set, 2 pair or even AA.
Bankroll management = No Fear Poker.
(that's why i'm a 2nl troll)
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
What? If you hold KK and an Ace hits you're raising flop donk bets IP? You do realize that one of the KEY ADVANTAGES of having position is that you can help control the size of the pot right? So what you're doing is bluffing with KK AND it's a bad bluff because nothing better is folding and almost nothing worse is calling. The pot only gets bigger, when you're behind.
So let's say you raise KK from the CO and get called by the BB. Flop is A72r and the BB leads out for 2/3 pot. You raise and he folds.
That is a HORRIBLE result for you. You've just forced your opponent to play perfectly against you and he can make no further mistakes in the hand.
Now instead of raising if you just call his flop bet how often do you think your OOP opponent will bet the turn with less than TP? No very, is correct. So if he bets again, you fold (unless it's a ridiculously small bet) and if he checks, you check behind to control pot size AND to possibly get a bet from a worse hand on the river. Playing the hand this way makes you more money when ahead AND costs you less money when behind.
Also don't think your opponent might fold a weak Ace to your flop raise. No one calls OOP with A-rag to fold it on an Ace high flop. Stop throwing your money away and wasting value playing your big pairs this way.
Not a fan of cbetting OOP either but that's better than your method for playing them IP vs a donk bet.