Losing my "natural" game....

taaron

taaron

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Best way with threads is to read the whole thing, then comment. Otherwise you end up looking like a smartarse lazy prat who only reads the last few posts, and even then, only the ones with 20 words or less.

if you read cards like you read posts, i hope we get to play sometime.

no u don't wanna play JoeBob!!. . .atm. . . .he was referring to the spammer in post above. . . . .that post. . . .

about the critiques u r getting; take them in and apply. . .or don't; its completely up to you, but just know that an inflated ego is bad for solid poker play.

I embrace criticism, i would rather someone tell me i am flawed in my thought process/ or that i played a hand very bad, than for some1 to tell me that i play awesome, and then never improve. . .
all the best man. . .

whatever u do don't take offense every1 is just trying to help, :) .
 
CuttleFish

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OK, my ego has been bashed into submission. I have part of the live game worked out, but sounds like I need to almost start learning from scratch again on the basics of play.
Is there anyone that can help me through bit by bit? Im not asking for tuition, just steering in the right direction for where to start.
I do appreciate everyones responses.

thanks,

CuttleFish.
 
Stu_Ungar

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OK, my ego has been bashed into submission. I have part of the live game worked out, but sounds like I need to almost start learning from scratch again on the basics of play.
Is there anyone that can help me through bit by bit? Im not asking for tuition, just steering in the right direction for where to start.
I do appreciate everyones responses.

thanks,

CuttleFish.

Take up online poker (although I would consider starting either 5c/10c or 25/50c)

Then post hand histories for review.
 
bgomez89

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after seeing the way he plays, youre advising him to try 50nl? Try playing the .01/.02 cent games.

Also read the golden archives here and the why do you bet article and post in the HA section
 
CuttleFish

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seriously though, it would make more sense for me to play a game with $50 or $100 buy in otherwise it would be meaningless and i would end up playing like it was monopoly money. $50 or $100 buy in and at least I would start playing like i do at the live tables which is what i would need to replicate in order for anyone to help me with hand analysis.
 
Stu_Ungar

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seriously though, it would make more sense for me to play a game with $50 or $100 buy in otherwise it would be meaningless and i would end up playing like it was monopoly money. $50 or $100 buy in and at least I would start playing like i do at the live tables which is what i would need to replicate in order for anyone to help me with hand analysis.


Im advising you to start somewhere between 10NL and 50NL

If you want to go higher, sure. I just think you'll struggle at 50NL. I could be wrong.
 
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baudib1

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It's easy to lose a lot of money playing 25 NL, I'd be conservative.
 
bgomez89

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seriously though, it would make more sense for me to play a game with $50 or $100 buy in otherwise it would be meaningless and i would end up playing like it was monopoly money. $50 or $100 buy in and at least I would start playing like i do at the live tables which is what i would need to replicate in order for anyone to help me with hand analysis.

No. You would get crushed at those levels. Why would you want to play like you do at live tables? Your plays are bad. You need to totally rethink the game and practice all the concepts you're learning. The penny and nickel games are the best way to do that without risking much.

You need to get a good foundation before you start thinking about making a ton of money
 
JusSumguy

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In essence. If you look around the table and you don't know who the fish are... guess who's the fish?

When you play at the lower limits, you gain confidence in your play through losses/lessons. That's why it's importants to stay there untill you're consistemtly winning, and the folks here give you the go ahead to move up.

Believe it or not, it costs money to learn how to play poker. And hands. You can get the most hands for the least money. Great place to learn.

When you move up you'll find it harder to win. And a whole new set of lessons to learn. This is what bgomez89 is telling you. First you must learn. And the course is only as expensive as you make it.


-
 
Cafeman

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I agree with what's been said. It's cool that you've got so much money that losing buy in over buy in at $50 a pop makes it 'meaningful'. However, why not save yourself some money and play $10 for now until you get a feel for how the game plays online.

You've probably already made your mind up though...
 
CuttleFish

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I am pretty disheartened by some of the responses here. I thought the idea of cardschat was that everyone could discuss poker in all its forms but it seems like unless youre talking about online poker then no-one really wants to know.

Ive had one PM and 2 emails from different members of cardschat talking about the original post, but all of them are live cash players, and the funny part is none of them were comfortable posting responses on here because it wasnt online-related.

Poker is not a game of maths. Online poker might be, but poker is not. Its a combination of maths, reading skills, instinct, intuition and luck. I've played and beaten every mathematically programmed poker bot out there heads up. Its easy to do because mathematically programmed bots are predictable.

Music is a lot like poker. Music is highly maths related, but no amount of programming is going to produce "Sergeant Pepper" or "Beethoven's 5th". To produce these there is a human element that goes far beyond the realms of maths and pyhsics. To produce these you would need to tap into a higher source of information, not found in the conscious mind.

That is the part of the game I am interested in. If this isnt the place for me to discuss this then fair enough. If you have all the answers already, and are confident poker is all a game of maths then nothing I say is really going to influence you one way or the other. I will say this though; it's either a genius or an idiot who thinks they have nothing more to learn and only things to teach.

I have a massive amount to learn about the maths side of the game. I can help people with the human element of the game if they're interested.

Why play 25NL instead of 0.1cent games? Because one of the biggest factors in poker from the human element side of the game is the relative value of money. I would be interested in the mathematical formula you guys must have already worked out by now to show the impact of betting and play based on the relative value of the chip stack to the player. Or maybe you haven't? And maybe the reason someone chases down a flush draw and then rivers it without any of the right maths playing out is because $50 to him has the same relative value as $5,000 to someone else?

Then again, what do i know, Im just a live cash player..............
 
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baudib1

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I play 100% live cash now, and have always played at least as much live as online. I've played 500 hours live this year and probably more than that the previous year I have a blog that I haven't updated for a while around here, but I used to write about my sessions each night. I actually was never really interested in the math of poker until Black Friday and becoming strictly a live player six months ago.

Poker is always about math no matter what form it is. Whether or not you want to apply or ignore the math involved is up to you. Are there other skills involved? Of course. Reading people is as important online as it is live, believe it or not.

You should use correct bankroll management. You can be the greatest player in the world and lose your whole roll if you do not play within your bankroll. If you jump right into 50 NL, you should have a dedicated online bankroll of at least $2,000 and arguably $5,000. You are well-advised to play well within your financial comfort zone. You play so many more hands online than live that a single bad tilt-induced session can wipe out huge chunks of your roll all at once.

Again, I say this as a live player who never consistently posted winning results online other than in tournaments: the games you are playing in $1/$2 live cash games are comparable to 10 NL. If you dive into 50/100/200 NL games you will run into serious regulars who have played millions of hands and are professionals.
 
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Stu_Ungar

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Then again, what do i know, Im just a live cash player..............

Live or not, your the guy who played this hand this way and its really bad.

8 Handed game.
Josh - $220
Kate - $ 70
Dee (dealer)- $150
Hero (sb) - $250
Max (bb) - $440
Lane - $250
John - $180
Kevin - $ 650
I have pocket pair, 6h 6d
Lane folds.
John calls.
Kevin folds.
Josh calls.
Kate folds.
Dee raises to $15 (Dee plays any cards that have an ace in them. It doesnt matter to him what combination, as long as one of them is an Ace)
I call for another $10
Max calls for another $10
The rest fold. Now 3 players.
Flop comes down 5s Qs Qh
I want to know if anyone has a Q, so put out a $10 feeler bet. Max raises to $30. This is his typical bet whenever he is chasing a flush. For about 5 times already during the day, he has raised to $30 chasing a flush. I put him on a spade flush draw.
Dee folds.
I call the additional $20. I didnt want to push more, I wanted to limit the damage if another spade hit.
Turn card is a 2h. Nothing card, and from my perspective still leaves me in the best position with 2 pair versus a flush draw.
I raise to $25. A bet big enough to maybe put him off chasing his last spade. It isn't, and he calls.
River card 6s. Dream card for me, he has hit his flush and I have hit a full house.
I check, knowing Max will now bet into me.
Max raises to $100.
I push all in for $180.
Max folds, I take down the pot.

You have been given advice. If you want to take that advice, take it. If you want to ignore that advice then ignore it. Ultimately it dosent matter to anyone here what you do.
 
U

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I am pretty disheartened by some of the responses here. I thought the idea of cardschat was that everyone could discuss poker in all its forms but it seems like unless youre talking about online poker then no-one really wants to know.

Ive had one PM and 2 emails from different members of cardschat talking about the original post, but all of them are live cash players, and the funny part is none of them were comfortable posting responses on here because it wasnt online-related.

Poker is not a game of maths. Online poker might be, but poker is not. Its a combination of maths, reading skills, instinct, intuition and luck. I've played and beaten every mathematically programmed poker bot out there heads up. Its easy to do because mathematically programmed bots are predictable.

Music is a lot like poker. Music is highly maths related, but no amount of programming is going to produce "Sergeant Pepper" or "Beethoven's 5th". To produce these there is a human element that goes far beyond the realms of maths and pyhsics. To produce these you would need to tap into a higher source of information, not found in the conscious mind.

That is the part of the game I am interested in. If this isnt the place for me to discuss this then fair enough. If you have all the answers already, and are confident poker is all a game of maths then nothing I say is really going to influence you one way or the other. I will say this though; it's either a genius or an idiot who thinks they have nothing more to learn and only things to teach.

I have a massive amount to learn about the maths side of the game. I can help people with the human element of the game if they're interested.

Why play 25NL instead of 0.1cent games? Because one of the biggest factors in poker from the human element side of the game is the relative value of money. I would be interested in the mathematical formula you guys must have already worked out by now to show the impact of betting and play based on the relative value of the chip stack to the player. Or maybe you haven't? And maybe the reason someone chases down a flush draw and then rivers it without any of the right maths playing out is because $50 to him has the same relative value as $5,000 to someone else?

Then again, what do i know, Im just a live cash player..............

I wanted to make a few comments here.

1: I don't feel like anyone has been especially discouraging, so I would like to say sorry if you feel that way. The other side of that is people are being honest with you. So if you feel that users on this site are disparaging of the way you play its a result of them not liking your play.

2: Its an online forum, and most of the people on here play, have played, or enjoy to some extent playing, online poker. So you will find a certain bias in that regard. However, a number of people play live and understand the game from that perspective as well.

3: The reason people are recommending lower stakes is that the relative skill level online IS higher than it is live. This has been born out time and time again. I once heard that you can divide the live stakes by 10 and that is where you should play at online in regards to relative skill. In that same vein DO WHATEVER THE **** YOU WANT ITS YOUR MONEY. People really are trying to help you out here on this one, its not to be insulting but you will find people you are grinding out a profit at 25nl holdem and because they can play 10-12 tables at a time and will be better than the 1/2 live players full ring.

4: I was reading a book recently called outliers, pretty interesting because the book basically says it take 10,000 hours of anything to become very good at it. By the time the Beatles produced SGT Pepper they had been playing for well over 10,000 hours. They spent about 2 years in Hamburg playing live for 8-10 hours every single day at strip clubs. By the time they they were in their 20's they had played well over 1200 times in a live venue- most bands NEVER play that many live audiences. So I found it interesting that you used that as an example, because it is a perfect example of how expertise develops over time. You have been playing poker for 3-ish years, I imagine that you have not put in the same amount of time to poker at this point that the Beetles had when they released that exact album,
Again this is not to insult you or your poker skills and what you have developed. I would imagine that you have some of the intangibles that are important in poker. Reads, understanding the player, table image, all that stuff matters. However a solid math based player will be more succesful than an intangible based player. The proof is in the rise of online players having tremendous success in live play based purely on math.
You can't bluff them because they know range. You are picking up their weakness and they make the call anyway because bluffs make up enough of your range that they can profitably call.

If you combine those two factors, the math and the intangible you have a very dangerous player.

Cards chat has some very dangerous player.

If you are willing to listen and learn then you can be a dangerous player as well.



TLDR~ Sorry if we made you sad, but if you listen to peoples honest criticism then you can emerge from your cocoon and become a glorious butterfly of poker doom and make SUPER BUCKS (which are better than normal bucks btw).
 
bgomez89

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I play 100% live cash now, and have always played at least as much live as online. I've played 500 hours live this year and probably more than that the previous year I have a blog that I haven't updated for a while around here, but I used to write about my sessions each night. I actually was never really interested in the math of poker until Black Friday and becoming strictly a live player six months ago.

Poker is always about math no matter what form it is. Whether or not you want to apply or ignore the math involved is up to you. Are there other skills involved? Of course. Reading people is as important online as it is live, believe it or not.

You should use correct bankroll management. You can be the greatest player in the world and lose your whole roll if you do not play within your bankroll. If you jump right into 50 NL, you should have a dedicated online bankroll of at least $2,000 and arguably $5,000. You are well-advised to play well within your financial comfort zone. You play so many more hands online than live that a single bad tilt-induced session can wipe out huge chunks of your roll all at once.

Again, I say this as a live player who never consistently posted winning results online other than in tournaments: the games you are playing in $1/$2 live cash games are comparable to 10 NL. If you dive into 50/100/200 NL games you will run into serious regulars who have played millions of hands and are professionals.

You have been given advice. If you want to take that advice, take it. If you want to ignore that advice then ignore it. Ultimately it dosent matter to anyone here what you do.

TLDR~ Sorry if we made you sad, but if you listen to peoples honest criticism then you can emerge from your cocoon and become a glorious butterfly of poker doom and make SUPER BUCKS (which are better than normal bucks btw).

I was about to srsly rage post but you guys said it all.
 
fletchdad

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to the 4 posts above....:dito:

And Ubercroz, your PS tl;dr made me lol....


@ Cuttlefish: I have read a lot of live poker discussions here, and. yes, you as well can discuss anything you like. You will hear peoples opinions, which you may like or not, but you really are free and actually encouraged to discuss any aspects of poker, be it live or online. Really.
 
CuttleFish

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ok, I will pull my head out of my arse and take some advice. i dont mean to be annoying, its just another one of my natural talents.....

to start again:

I have been playing poker for some time and doing well at it. Am up about $22k in the past 12 months. Lately I have realised that nearly all of my play is based on feel, not maths. I want to incorporate some of the maths into my game, but am not sure where to start. I have no interest in online poker so will not be able to put up hand histories to go on. (wouldnt even know where to start with setting up a poker account online). Can anyone please help me with the maths side, starting from the very beginning?

appreciate any help that you can give.

Many thanks,

CuttleFish
 
U

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So here is the deal about math in poker: it's pretty easy. What you need is a baseline for understanding some of the basic concepts that are used to build into more complex play.

I would actually recommend reading some books to introduce you to some of these concepts. I still think the "Theorem of Poker" by slansky is a great place to start. It is a very thorough look at the math in poker, not just holdem. Harrington has some good books on poker also- these all dig into the math and discuss strategy to beat the game and some other interesting stuff.

The strategy and play discussed in these books is out of date, so don't focus on that. The CONCEPTS however are good. Defining ranges, knowing your odds those are all good take aways.

After that go to the golden archive here. C9 has some required reading for cash game hand analysis. Read all of it. Some is old but ita the style of thinking applied that makes it important.

Once you've done that. Buy a good crying pillow. You'll need it once you realize that the more you know about poker the more you realize how much you don't know. You may prefer a blanket to cry into, but personally it's hard for me to sleep on a tear soaked pillow or blanket. So I think a new one is a great way to go.
 
U

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The reason I am recommending books rather than telling you outright is for a couple reasons: 1- it takes more words than I can right good.

2- the books have already said it better than we can. And they are readily available.

To be honest I think you will find it difficult for anyone to coach you strictly "math". But once you understand the concepts we put out there then you will be able to grow from there.
 
bgomez89

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Ubercoz is right.

Also, you can post hand histories, you just have to type them out from memory. Just write down key hands or remember ones you had trouble on. Then come here, type out the positions of people involved, estimated stack sizes, reads, and then the action of the hand. I recommend this very much so
 
JusSumguy

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Im just a live cash player..............

Same here... 100%. I've never deposited a penny online.

While it's true that live reads are a huge tool which aren't available online, it's only one tool. And a limited one at that.

Think about it. We use our reads maybe once an hour, or so, to help out with difficult players in certain situations. Yet we use the math skills EVERY SINGLE HAND. This is the compass that guides us hand by hand.

One last thing... As a live player, I see no divide between online and cash play in this forum. Well, 'cept when they cheat with their little HUD thingies.. ..:p


-
 
dj11

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I played a couple 100K hands before I found any forum, or read any book. I had read Hoyle for the rules, but nothing significantly more.

I had a 'natural' game. Not really natural, it developed with experience, lets call it more of a 'style'. I learned specific things slowly because they did not show up every hand. Once each specific thing was learned I still did not have enuf info to categorize these small things into bigger groups.

Reading, discussing, playing then re-reading, and discussing some more intensify and speed up the whole learning curve.

When I read my first book, Super System, I found myself doing many, if not most of the things Doyle (and his partners) did, but not all, and not for the same reasons he did them, when he did them. I learned other ways to interpret what it was I did. Which leads to ideas about what I can do in the future, and creates a more structured method of learning beyond the rules.

When I got to the Harrington Books, which I have read 3 times now (bout ready to start again), I kept learning new things. With a first encounter on any new subject, we, as humans, often have no clue about what the subject is about, or it's relevance. Just the exposure to that new subject awakens new thought processes. Which lead to more new ideas.

The point here is that yeah, you sort of like your 'natural' game, but you have come here seeking what? Ego boost?, or Improvement?

Well, I was impressed with your original post, and the hand results of the hand you painstakingly remembered. Good Job. There, I have given you your ego boost.

All the others are offering improvement.

Remember the scene in Casino Royal where LeChif spouts out 3 digit poker odds at Bond? Over-complication! We do not need that sort of precision. We can deal with simple tenths, or (similar to money, 1/100's). And in most cases we can simplify down to simple fractions, 1/4, 1/5, 3-1, 2-1, etc. Nothing to be freaked about. Understanding the basics 'naturally' leads to a simple solution.

Add all this to the notion that you are fairly comfortable about your game, understanding that improvement shouldn't hurt, and you write better than most, and we are happy to share with you.:D
 
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