Live Grind: How to Fall Asleep at the Table (Without Getting Caught)

Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
Yeah - I reeeaaalllyyy wish I had Presidents Day off. Sucks to hear your week has been so bad. If you ever wanna run spots by me, you can PM my CC, or tbh I'd be down for exchanging numbers since I run into you often enough anyway (and cause you should totally decide to go to Pittsburgh ;) ). I feel like getting feedback on spots in real-time, even if just by text, is so helpful. Part of why being in a skype group was so beneficial to me when playing online.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
The Biggest Pot of My Life

There's some good news, and some bad news. Differentiating them is hard, so I don't think I'm going to try to suuuuuuuper explicitly. So I'll just do cliffs at the beginning so you know what you have to look forward to if you read on:

- Snowstorm in PA means I couldn't visit my gf for valentine's day weekend :(
- Played da pokerz instead :)
- Called the clock on a guy when I had the virtual nuts :cool:
- Guy got mad and made a big deal of it for the next couple hours :mad:
- Guy finally goes broke and leaves :p
- Played the largest pot of my life tonight, and lost :eek:
- Don't feel all that awful about it :eek: :confused: :eek:

If I'm being honest about it, starting to write about it is making some of the negative feelings about seeing such an enormous swing return. But overall I still feel okay. Certainly not heartbroken (lol), and ready to move forward. But now, on to some hands.

The kind of stupid thing about tonight is that I was involved in seemingly a million interesting pots. I coolered a few people, I got coolered a bunch, I made a crap ton of decent laydowns, and just overall was playing awesome. Then I got a couple sets and somehow got paid off while a bit deep by an otherwise competent reggish type. At my worst I was down $200ish, and at my best I was up $500. I ended the session +$61. Oh and yeah, if I'd won the BIG pot of the night? I'd have been up a whopping $1,200.

Basically, it was a Friday night:


Preflop: :as4: :ks4:
I've straddled after seeing a few in a row do so, and there are 4 limpers to me. I make it $25, and the initial UTG limper calls. Everyone else folds, and we go HU to the flop.

Flop: ($60) :9s4: :5c4: :3d4: (2 players)
It's pretty dry, so I cbet $30, and villain quickly calls. No reads, no history, no nothing.

Turn: ($120) :qs4: (2 players)
Pretty much the perfect barrel card. Overcard to the board, and also gives me a flush draw. I bet $65, and villain calls quickly again.

River: ($380) :2s4: (2 players)
BINK. I catch my miracle card and bet to put villain in for his last $80 or so. He calls, I show, and the table explodes with talk of how lucky I just got.

Villain muttered something about having a Q, and I had to force down the urge to chuckle - he only had a Q? So I was for sure ahead preflop and on the flop... Apparently that was irrelevant though because I sucked out from the turn to the river. Oh well. I proceeded to win a couple more mid-sized pots, and was quickly up to about $460 from my $200 buyin. The next hand sparked the controversy and conflict that would disquiet the table for the following 3 hours:


Preflop: :10d4: :10h4:
UTG+1, a tight-ish reg opens to $12, and gets one MP caller whose tendencies I don't know, but who definitely plays at the casino a lot. I flat on the button - I'm approximately $300 effective with UTG+1 and about $80 effective with the other villain.

Flop: ($35) :qs4: :10c4: :4d4: (3 players)
UTG+1 bets $15, and MP calls. I bump it to $40. UTG+1 calls fairly quickly. MP goes deep into the tank. I'm patient at first, watching the villains out of my peripherals. About 3 minutes in, I start to get a little impatient, but I remind myself that I have the effective nuts. Around 4 minutes into this guy's tank, I notice other players at the table beginning to shift and fidget with impatience. After approximately 5 minutes, I call the clock on MP. The floor comes over, and the guy starts throwing a fit. He's told that he has a minute to make his decision or his hand will be dead. He takes about 10 seconds after this announcement to turn his hand face up as he throws it down on the table. He had AJo.

Turn: ($130) :2c4: (2 players)
UTG+1 checks to me, and I make it $65. UTG+1 folds.


I had tried not to make a big deal out of the MP villain deliberately exposing his hand with pending action, but I was frustrated, especially when the UTG+1 villain told me that he'd seen "one of his outs" in the exposed hand.

What followed next was one of my proudest times though. The MP villain began addressing me from across the table, saying things like "this isn't a tournament, this is a cash game!" and "I guarantee no one on this table calls the clock on you today." He was just overall being aggressive, and downright rude. A few times he tried to garner support from the players near him, with "right?!" But they'd mostly just look noncommittally in other directions. It seemed clear that no one else thought I'd been in the wrong, and I'd mostly called the clock for the benefit of the table, rather than my own EV.

The MP villain proceeded to throw a hissy fit, talking about me and how I played. The essence of his "argument" (in quotes, because I said nothing in reply) was that I just "raise big cards and bet huge - that's not poker!!!" He called me a bum, and at this point, the current dealer drew the line, saying they wouldn't allow it to continue. The player, now quite agitated, said that he hadn't meant any offense, but that he was talking about my cards. Another player had tried to calm him down by saying that calling the clock was my right, and I was just trying to get in his head. The clock-villain then tried to use this in reverse, saying something alone the lines of "I'm doing my psychological thing now too." Still I was saying nothing. It seemed he was freaking himself out more than me. I refused to make eye contact with him, and I said nothing in reply.

The floor was finally called over, and the clock-villain was given a talking to. In the meantime, this hand happened:

Preflop: :ks4: :kh4:
UTG makes it $8, and from UTG+1 I bump it to $25. I get 3 callers somehow, and we go to the flop 4 ways.

Flop: ($95) :js4: :8c4: :8s4: (4 players)
I hate every option aside from betting, so when it was checked to me, I made it a reasonable $50. It folded back to UTG, who thought for a few moments before calling.

Turn: ($195) :3s4: (2 players)
Not the best card, since I think there are a lot of Axss and other spade hands that villain can have here. I opt to check behind, since I also have the Ks, and should be able to make better decisions on rivers.

River: ($195) :9h4: (2 players)
For all intents and purposes I think this is a blank, since villain shouldn't have any gutshots that call the flop, and I think we can discount 99 a little based on the flop play. But at the same time, when villain checks again I'm a little concerned. I don't know if I have a bit of a read on him and don't realize, but something feels off, and I opt to check behind. Villain sheepishly shows JJ, for a flopped boat, and I muck.

It's hard to say much about the KK hand, because I just didn't feel comfortable betting the river. Whether it was correct from a strategic standpoint is sort of moot, since I just didn't think it was right in the moment. But again, I'm not really sure if it was something in the villain's body language that had me on edge more than his betting line concerned me (though x/c, x, x river is a little weird with something as strong as AJ - he might be polarized to the nuts and random stuff I beat that won't call a bet).

A few hands later, there were a few limpers to me and I bumped it big with AQs. I got a few callers, flopped top 2 on a two tone board and got it in on the flop vs. an $100ish short stack (UTG+1 from the TT hand) and couldn't hold against his flush draw.

The clock-villain continued his ranting. Some of it was directed at me directly, but he was also getting snippy with the dealer (a new one by now) and he basically yelled at the player on his immediate right when she offered to chop the blinds. He had another talk with another floor person.

I was still refusing to make eye contact with the flop villain, since I wanted to be respectful, keep my cool, and hopefully let him just boil over and calm back down. Unfortunately, the strategy didn't seem to be doing much, though it felt good to have control over myself and my emotions. It's not easy to just sit there and take verbal abuse from a stranger - especially one who took 5 minutes to fold a gutshot to a flop raise and then bitched about it for the next hour. It was about this time that another spot came up:

Preflop: :ac4: :ah4:
I open to $12 UTG, and get 3 callers.

Flop: ($45) :js4: :9c4: :6s4: (4 players)
I'm second to act, and when it's checked by the BB (same guy from KK hand), I bet $30. It folds around to the BB, who thinks a bit, and calls.

Turn: ($105) :6h4: (3 players)
Pretty inconsequential card, since villain probably doesn't have much 6x in his range, nor will it scare any Jx in his range into folding. BB checks, and I make a $60 value bet. BB tanks for a little while, and finally check raises to $160. It should be noted that at this point, the clock-villain, from across the table starts cheering on "pops" (the BB was middle-aged), and kind of jeering at me. A new dealer is now at the table and has no idea what's going on. The clock-villain is begging the BB to call the clock on me within 15 seconds of the BB check-raising. I try to keep my head on straight and think through the hand. I don't put villain on all that much 6x, but 99 is absolutely in his range, and since he's the same one from the KK hand, I expect he'd take a more aggro line this time around vs. me if he had a real hand. Plus, I just don't think he'd take a--

"CLOCK!!!!" The clock-villain breaks through my thought process and for the first time in an hour I look directly at him.

The clock-villain looks deranged. His eyes are wide as he confronts the dealer, and continues shouting "I call the clock!! I wanna call the clock!! Call the clock on him!!"

I'd been thinking for only about 45 seconds so far, and the dealer calmly told the clock-villain that she was not going to call the floor - I'd not had enough time yet. I tried to continue on with my thought process, but the flow was lost. I managed to piece together one last coherent thing: this villain doesn't have air here ever. Do I beat anything but air? No. Okay, I fold.

The dealer called the floor over to have another talk with the clock-villain, as the BB disappointedly told me I'd made a good lay down. I believed him.


The next hour or so was frustrating, but also strangely gratifying. I had finally retaliated after the clock-villain had tried to call the clock on me. The clock-villain made a big deal out of the dealer not honoring his "request" for the clock, and I had said something about only thinking for a minute, and that when I called the clock on him, I hadn't been shouting at him while he was trying to think. After that I pushed myself to relax mentally, as the session was starting to drag on my psyche. Even with that one retaliatory outburst, I'd remained impressively calm, in the face of outrageous and uncalled for abuse. But little did I know it was going to get worse.

When the seat to my immediate right opened up, the clock-villain moved to it. I was in the middle of a hand with a decent reg at the time. I ignored the clock-villain completely and focused on the hand. What I noticed out of my peripheral vision when the hand was over was almost too much - the clock-villain was literally staring me down. I'm talking no blinking, no moving. I couldn't help it. I laughed.

It was the first time I'd smiled in about 2 hours, and it felt surprisingly good. Some of that no doubt came from the fact that it was at the expense of someone who'd been giving me shit for hours now. He eventually looked away after I played another entire hand vs. a reg without so much as glancing to my right.

It didn't come as much of a surprise when, after more abuse to dealers, and the 4th visit from the floor, the clock-villain was politely asked to leave, and then politely escorted by security to the poker-room cage, and then downstairs.

There was a tangible relaxation in the air when he was gone, and I noticed that some of my back and neck muscles had been tense for pretty much 3 hours straight. It was also around this time that I made a comeback from my low point:

Preflop: :8s4: :8h4:
Tightish, decent-so-far player makes it $10 UTG, and I flat, 2 seats later. 3 others join us and we go the flop 5-way.

Flop: ($50) :8d4: :5c4: :2d4: (5 players)
It checks to UTG, who bets $35. I'm next to act, and realize that UTG basically has to have an overpair. He's competent, and this is a tough board to cbet with air into 4 people. Even with AKdd I think there's a chance he will just check and call on the flop. I also think it's possible people have draws, and that some of them will pay significantly more to draw to them, so I bump it to $85 instead of just calling. The BTN snap folds, the SB snap goes all in for $92 total, and the BB snap-calls all in for less (about $30). UTG tanks for a while, and finally folds. I snap call of course.

I ended up holding - even when the turn brought a third diamond - against JJ and an unknown hand. UTG claimed he folded QQ, which seemed likely to me. The comeback was on, and I was back in the black. But it was only a few hands later when I made my comeback even larger:


Preflop: :6h4: :6c4:
The table is pretty loose passive now, and not many people are raising limped pots, so I opt to limp in from UTG+1. 3 others follow suit, and the BB, (the preflop raiser from the 88 set hand) bumps it to $17. I think this is very close, and I nearly folded. But I expect one or two other callers if I call, and I again expect that the BB has to have a strong hand. I elect to flat, and 2 others flat along with me.

Flop: ($65) :kd4: :qs4: :6d4: (4 players)
BINGO. This is literally the perfect flop for me. Except for being set-over-setted and draws from people other than the PFR, I have nothing to worry about. BB leads first in on the flop for $60. At this point, I'm nearly drooling. His range is basically QQ+ and AK. AA and AK are the most likely because they always take this line, whereas KK and QQ may check sometimes to try to x-r, and I expect they'd make it a smaller amount as well. I opt to call, because I think a ton of worse hands can call behind me. One other player call,s and we go 3-way to the turn.

Turn: ($245) :10c4: (3 players)
BB elects to check, and I've now got a pretty interesting decision. I've got both villains covered, where BB has about $170 behind, and the other villain has about $120 behind. I can either check, hoping the villain behind me will jam, or I can get more value on the river. Or I can jam right now. I elect to jam right now, since there are still some draws, and I think this is where I'm most likely to pick off 2 pair hands, though with such small SPR it's unlikely I don't stack 2 pair hands anyway. The villain behind me folds, and the BB thinks only about 10 seconds before calling.

The river pairs the K, having me momentarily worried about KQ, but BB and I both overcome our fears at the same time and turn over AK and 66 respectively. I scoop the pot, and am suddenly up to about $900.


After winning the second set (okay, boat) pot, I took a quick walk to let go of some pent up tension. Upon coming back, I proceeded to go fairly card dead. I 3bet a couple times and picked up dead money with decent hands, but other than that, everything was pretty standard and fold-heavy until this:


Preflop: :5s4: :4s4:
2 limpers to me in MP and I opt to over-limp. The BTN, the same non-clock villain from the TT hand, bumps it to $11. Two players call, and I opt to call as well. We go the flop 4-handed.

Flop: ($40) :as4: :8s4: :2s4: (2 players)
Yup. I flop it. Action checks to me and I decide leading will get me the most value since I can control the size of the pot. I'm about $400 deep with two of the villains, and looking to get max value from AxKs and similar types of hands that the BTN is likely to have. I lead for $30, and am called by the BTN and the SB. The BTN call doesn't surprise me, since he's not folding any ace here, but I'm unsure what the SB's range is. I think primarily Ax and hands that contain a large spade.

Turn: ($125) :8d4: (3 players)
It crosses my mind that this isn't the best card in the world, since no one is likely holding on with bare 8x, but I also think that 2 pairs and sets pretty much have to raise or x/r a monotone flop. SB checks to me and I bet $90 for value. I'm quickly called by both villains. There are now murmurs going around the table, as the pot has deceptively ballooned up to nearly $400.

River: ($395) :10h4: (2 players)
SB checks, and I try to slow myself down and THINK, dammit. BTN's line really confuses me. He's not a complete pushover, but he has to have something he thinks is probably good here. And he's not a complete idiot, so he has to KNOW that I have something pretty damn good here---

But too late, I've gone and bet $170. The BTN goes into the tank for a couple minutes, and emerges by shoving all in, for a total of $323. I seethe inwardly. I already know I'm beat. I know instantly upon seeing him push the stacks forward that my river bet was a mistake. That I should have check-called, or probably more correctly, check-folded. There's nothing he bets there that I'm ahead of. And even more so, nothing he raises now that I'm even close to ahead of. The SB pushes all his remaining $130ish in, but his style has been way more erratic, and I'm easily still ahead of his range.

It's much too late for me. I'm in the fog, and no amount of logic, reason, and sanity can pull me out now. I mutter, mostly to myself "you seriously have aces here?"

I hear the BTN say something back with attitude: "You've been betting me out of pots all night - not anymore." It's so obvious it's not even funny. His speech only adds to the strength of his range. It's so obvious that I actually laugh in his face.

"Yeah, you're bluffing here," I say sarcastically.

"No," he tries to recover, digging his hole deeper - how does he not realize how obvious it is he's got the nuts?! "I've got something decent, but... Come on, you're not going to fold."

He's right. It's only $153 more to me to call. I'm never good though.

The pot is over $1,000 now, how can I possibly-- I'm never good. I'm never good. I'm never never never--

I hear the words come out of my mouth:

"I know I'm beat - but I can't fold."

And I push the chips into the middle.

"Quad eights."


I was stunned in the moment. Angry in the after-moment. I took a one-minute walk and came back to see the villain stacking 450 of my dollars, and another 350 or so from the other villain. It took him 3 more full hands to completely arrange his almost 1.2 THOUSAND dollar stack. Money that was almost mine. That for a brief, brief, instant seemed sure to be headed to me.

It felt kind of like being punched in the gut, except I could breathe. And I knew that instead of it being the puncher's fault, it was mine.

I was left with approximately $370 in my stack - I was in for $400. But that seemed so irrelevant in comparison to the 6-buyin swing that had just occurred in front of my very eyes. I wanted to leave more than anything. Leave while I still felt more angry at my misfortune than I did at myself. But I forced myself to stay. I had to prove something to myself:

As the stab of defeat slowly faded away into a mild stinging sensation, I focused on the game in front of me. I believe I was fortunate in the cards I received at that point of the game. Most of them were relatively easy preflop folds. But in my current state, they were still effortful. I managed to keep myself out of trouble for another few orbits, even winning a medium-sized pot: In a 4-way limped pot I value bet top pair good kicker on a 643r flop, value bet again when they all called and an offsuit K hit the turn, and checked the K river with the intention of calling a river bet from the aggro in position. He bet as I expected, I called when it folded to me, and he showed me exactly what I expected - a 5x hand with no K to go with it.

With that small, but substantial victory, I was $61 in profit on the day, and about 8 hours into my session. It was only about 11:30pm, but I decided that I proven what I needed to prove. I lost an enormous pot, got mad, reigned it back in, and then played tight and solid for about half an hour. I was tired now though. It was time to go.



While I write a lot of this in a story-telling style, and I certainly was mad in the moment, one of the biggest keys here is how well I actually handled all this. In particular, I was dealing with the accumulated emotion from the clock-villain, and not having any major winning sessions in a while. (I've had some wins, but they've all been small, even in hyper +EV situations.) I then proceeded to lose the biggest pot of my life, and the biggest bb-sized pot of my life by FAR. 6-buyin swings just don't happen that much at 100BB buyin $1-$2 games. It's also important to mention that a lot of the money that I actually lost could have been saved by avoiding a massive river error.

But that's okay.

Playing $1-$2 right now isn't about playing perfect. It's about learning how to do so. It's about building a bankroll while I improve my poker and people skills. And it's about growing. Even though this was objectively one of the worst sessions of my life, I'm coming out of it relatively unscathed. This is huge for me, and I'm both excited and nervous about the implications of that. I am by no means free of tilt, frustration, doubt, and pain. But I'm well on my way.

Something I try to think to myself once in a while, and that I should try to think to myself more regularly, is this: Some day you will run worse than you ever thought possible. You'll make an unforgivable error in the biggest pot of your life. And then it'll happen again. And again.

All I can do is make sure I handle it the best I possibly can, every time I can.

Peace, and thanks for reading.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
Oh, and sorry for another novel, guys. But I posted as few hands as I possibly could - there were still 5 or 6 more that were interesting. These were all the ones that were particularly relevant though.
 
Mr Sandbag

Mr Sandbag

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Total posts
2,635
Chips
0
Your updates are great. You really capture the mood of each session, which I believe is pretty important in live poker and can sway certain decisions, whether we like it or not.

lol @ guy tanking for 5 minutes to call $25. It doesn't even matter what he had. It was $25. Of course someone is calling clock. Nobody wants to sit there and watch him think about a rather minuscule bet.

54ss: I'm not sure we can assume two pair or sets are raising the flop. In fact, at 1/2, it might actually be correct to assume that they wouldn't. The standard weak player is thinking in one of two ways:
1) There are three spades on the board, so somebody probably has a flush, or
2) One more spade kills my hand, so I'll wait to see if one comes before I put more money into the pot.

I might actually favor pot control starting on the turn. You essentially have the worst flush on a monotone flop/paired board, and, as stated above, we can't really expect flop raises from hands that just got there on the turn. Though it seems so dangerous to give a free river, I'm not opposed to checking turn and check/calling non-spade rivers. I don't see villains betting many (or any) hands on the turn if you do check. They're probably checking back full houses, quads, and large nut or near-nut flushes and only betting a few medium made flushes. You can also bet smaller on the turn, maybe closer to half pot.

As played, check/fold river. Really sick spot, since you only need to call $150 into a pot of over $1k, but at 1/2, players simply aren't making moves or betting worse hands enough. FWIW, I probably call in-game, too. The pot is just so big for a 1/2 game. I'll be DAMNED if I'm not gonna try and win it!


The important part is you didn't tilt or let any of the hands or obnoxious actions of other players affect your game. I think that's a rarely discussed point in live vs. online debates. You can't just turn the chat off and play in peace. If a player acts up and gets annoying, you pretty much have to deal with it until he busts out or is booted from the casino.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
Just went through the last novel with the "clock guy". It really was a great read and while reading it , i had the whole siutation visualized. Unlucky that you fell into Quad eights in that monster hand and check calling river at that point was probably best but,hey, he could have had aces.(not really, but you cant fold there)


It must have been extremely difficult to remain calm while the guy was verbally abusing you. I don't think i would have that kind of patience.

Other than that, nice read man, keep them coming.
 
Theromeo2k

Theromeo2k

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 11, 2013
Total posts
876
Awards
1
Chips
2
What a great read this was! The specifically detailed way this post was written is absolute poetry to my ears!!

Now onto the hands:

AKs: everything seems fine. Qs is certainly a good card for us to barrel at, not to value bet though. OHR: A+

TT: that clock-villain deserved an uppercut to the chin, and a penalty as well. the hand was played well, no issues. OHR: A+

KK: I like your ch-back on turn and river. Great read of the situation. OHR: A+

AA: Another rant from this guy smh <_< . Very very nice fold. OHR: A+

88 & 66: Great spots to value bet relentlessly. Great read on your opponents' ranges once again.

54s: I concur with @Mr Sandbag in its entirety. It's pretty tough to fold to 150$ into a 1k pot; unfortunate cooler though. OHR: B+

I really enjoyed reading this. It's great to hear that you have battled through tilt, uncomfortable situations, and big losses. You are a great player @Scourrge, I admire your game and composure at the live tables. Keep up the good work man and, thanks for sharing these experiences with us! #Peace
 
JOEBOB69

JOEBOB69

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Total posts
4,681
Chips
0
Jesus Christ,,,, i got to read all that i'll get back to ya in a week or so.
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
loved the write up keep them coming,

few points tho,

1/ i don't like the sizing in the AKss hand, especially the turn, I'm also not sold that the turn barrel at that sizing is best. i think c/c and c/j are both viable alternatives.

2/ i would probably have said something to the guy or tried to talk him down earlier, failing that i would have told the dealer to either make him be quiet or call the floor.

3/ not sold on the 54s hand action, turn i want to bet a bit smaller and expect some boats to be out there when it 3 way, river is a c/f as you said. unsure about turn action tho?

plo hand in commiserations

7 hands plo 1/2 game, I'm in for 410 and have about 470 in front

2 guys cover me and some extremely short, I'm in late position. i hold A792ssdd, 2 limps, a guy raises less than pot (around 8) i cold call button into a 5 way flop with the blinds, 2d6h8s flop, one bets half pot from the blinds, 1 guy folds and 2 call to me on the turn and i call about 25 into 100, turn is a 5s. bink, villain pots turn for 150, 1 guy calls, i shove, villain covers and calls other guy folds for another 100 (lol) and the pot is now about 1200ish. river rolls off an 8. villain asks if i just bad beat him on river, i say no and table my hand, he looks says wow, pauses, sighs then rolls 8864r and says sorry man, then asks if I'm going to rebuy.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
Woah, I had no idea you were rolled for that kind of a live game duggs? Especially in PLO? Hate to say it, but that looks like textbook runbad, though again, it's PLO so lol? Like what is our equity on the turn - 70 max? Actually maybe more like 80ish? I count 9 outs for villain. But I guess in PLO that's a massive equity edge.

Will respond to other stuff when I'm not fresh off a brand new, swingy session (this is becoming wayyyy too standard), albeit a less eventful session than the last one.

As always, thank you all for your support. It means a ton to me, and keeps me motivated to keep writing novel-aments about my more interesting sessions. Cheers until tomorrow. Will hopefully remember to post a few hands from tonight.
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
Woah, I had no idea you were rolled for that kind of a live game duggs? Especially in PLO? Hate to say it, but that looks like textbook runbad, though again, it's PLO so lol? Like what is our equity on the turn - 70 max? Actually maybe more like 80ish? I count 9 outs for villain. But I guess in PLO that's a massive equity edge.

Will respond to other stuff when I'm not fresh off a brand new, swingy session (this is becoming wayyyy too standard), albeit a less eventful session than the last one.

As always, thank you all for your support. It means a ton to me, and keeps me motivated to keep writing novel-aments about my more interesting sessions. Cheers until tomorrow. Will hopefully remember to post a few hands from tonight.

This was almost a year ago so I would just shot take any live game I could play, as most of them were out of town, this was actually only my 2nd PLO session ever and the first one I won 5bi (lol) . I just posted it to show that these things happen,


And the other guy who folded showed bottom 2/3 pair lol
 
dj11

dj11

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Total posts
23,189
Awards
9
Chips
0
The Biggest Pot of My Life

Post of the Year...IMHO:D
 
honeycrush

honeycrush

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Jun 5, 2012
Total posts
1,488
Awards
2
Chips
26
Great post Scourrge. I am waiting with baited breath for your first book/novel. :)
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
Nah, You set the bar so high, one would have to be at the bar to even try to stand a chance....;)

Great post Scourrge. I am waiting with baited breath for your first book/novel. :)

You guys are too kind to me, but it keeps me writing, so by all means, don't back off now!! :D

Alright, well last night was another swingy session. I played for about 8 hours, started at about 8pm and played until about 4am. I spent most of the night stuck, winning zero hands at showdown in my first 3 hours. My first two hands won at showdown came in close succession during my 4th hour of play - in one hand I flopped a straight and was paid off by what was probably an overpair. Those pots were pretty small though, so I was still hurting money-wise.

I chipped back down for a while, but finally caught a real break when I doubled up with a set against TP with a ~$170 stack. I was in the game for $460, so still down, but that really helped me refocus and remember that it's not about whether it's a winning session or not - the best players in the world have losing sessions - it's about making good decisions. The luck/chance factor will even out in the long-run. I chipped up and down here and there after that, mostly in standard spots. Then with about a $400 stack I got into the least-standard spot of the night:


Preflop: :7s4: :6s4:
3 limpers to me and I elect to over-limp on the button with my suited connectors. The table was pretty loose passive preflop, so it was unlikely I'd face a raise out of the blinds, who were both pretty weak players. The SB completed, and the BB checked his option, bringing us 6-way to the flop:

Flop: ($10) :ac4: :8h4: :2s4: (6 players)
Not a great flop for me, so I'm obviously planning on folding to any bet, but it checks all the way around to me. Players were playing passive-enough (on average) postflop that I felt a bet here would be a little too ambitious, and would likely get called by a weak Ax that opted to check the flop, unworried because overcards can't come.

Turn: ($10) :5h4: (6 players)
Suddenly, the board is a little more inviting for me. The SB checks, but the BB leads for $6. The UTG limper makes it $20, and the action is quickly folded around to me. I'm not getting immediate odds to draw to my hand, but I think that UTG, an aggressive player postflop, can't have too much in this spot, and I decide to flat, thinking I may be able to take it away on the river. The BB flats behind me though, and we go 3-way to the river.

River: ($70) :7c4: (3 players)
The BB quickly checks, and UTG thinks for a few moments and bets $40. I didn't have any reliable reads on UTG, but he had snap-bet once with the near-nuts, so the fact that he didn't snap-bet makes me discount sets to some degree, and I think he bets them on the flop a non-zero amount anyway. The tricky thing is, I've made a hand with showdown value, and I look like I have exactly what I have - a fairly weak hand. BB looks even weaker than I do, taking a check-flop, bet/call turn, check river line. Glancing over, I see him un-cap his cards, which is a clear indication he is going to fold. I think for another minute or so, but I think UTG leads with every single Ax in his range on the flop, so unless he has backed into some kind of two pair hand, I'm ahead. There's a million missed draws in his range, so I close my eyes and click "call."


Thoughts on my line in the hand? It was starting to get pretty late, so it's certainly possible I left out some combinations/possibilities in the moment. But I felt reasonably good about my thought process even after the fact. Might post some more hands from last night, but this was probably the most interesting one from a hand analysis perspective, so I posted it first.
 
Mr Sandbag

Mr Sandbag

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Total posts
2,635
Chips
0
Weird hand. What is villain's preflop range? Is his limping range made up of mostly SC's/Ax/PP hands? Or is he limping basically ATC?

Also, he may have picked up a flush draw on the turn and decided to raise with it in hopes that everyone folds and, if they don't, he can still improve.

I don't really agree with your assumption that if he didn't back into two pairs you're ahead. I'd actually expect a lot of 8x hands to take this line.

I probably fold in-game on the turn. I've gotten my hand slapped way too many times when trying to get fancy with 1/2 players.
 
Mr Sandbag

Mr Sandbag

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Total posts
2,635
Chips
0
EDIT:

I don't want to make it seem like the river call is terrible. It's not at all. It's just a bit high variance since you're basically bluff catching.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
I think the turn call is the only questionable part tbh.

Preflop, it's very tough for me judge, because he really was playing a lot of hands, and most of the table was limping a very high %. He wasn't limping his whole range, but he wasn't raising a high % of the hands he played. I'd say his preflop range is (super approximately) A2-AT, most SC's and SG's, any pair up to 88, suited hands with one high card (Kxs, Qxs, Jxs).

I thought I mentioned this but I guess I forgot - I figured a big part of his raising range WAS flush draws, which just means that I can take an aggro river line when the FD misses. The reason I can take a calling line on the river is because I make some SDV with the pair.

I really strongly disagree with your assessment that he takes this line with 8x. Granted I'd been playing with him for a few hours, so my understanding of his tendencies is probably deeper than what I managed to communicate. But how many players are checking the flop but then raising an 8 for value on the turn? And if it's not for value then what the hell is he doing bluff-raising a hand with SDV? If he'd just called the turn bet (and river sizing was the same relative to the pot) I would agree he can have 8x here, but he's not super-thin valuing or anything so his turn-raise is pretty polarizing to draw/air and monsters that can check the flop like sets.

As for it being high variance, I don't think it's that high-variance, but I should point out that I'd seen him bluff a number of times. It's not like I just saw him betting generally and presumed he had air a lot. I had watched his bluffs get caught.
 
stately7

stately7

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Total posts
365
Chips
0
Also enjoyed the last novel Scourrge, keep 'em coming! Also would have said something a bit earlier to the 'clock-villain'. I think you can still keep your cool and remain calm / courteous in doing so, especially as that is in such stark contrast to his behavior, it sort of reflects badly on him all the more. Some great play and reads, and getting to that level of acceptance is cool.

That 54s hand is one of those tough spots that i think serve as a reminder (to me anyhow) about baby flushes and a paired board multi-way, as in - well let's just get to show down cheap as poss, even if it is costing us value to do so some of the time.

Re this 76s hand, i like your line / ranging for the most part. It is a pretty weird hand though. Your reads on villain far outweigh anything we can suggest here. I think the key to the hand is reading UTG on the turn - what is he raising here? Does he trap much? By the river - and I realise these vague possibilities are about as useful as an ash tray on a motorbike - but I'm putting him on a busted heart flush draw (given his bluffing tendencies), a set of 2s that could check the flop fairly safely, and much less likely ofc - a weak Ax. There's also another very unlikely hand in his turn raising range, 76 the same as yours, semi-bluff raising with OESD. As to the 8x debate and Sand's point, well he's only going to bluff raise for value with SDV if he's bad right? So I guess you're saying he's not a bad player in your analysis.
 
Mr Sandbag

Mr Sandbag

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Total posts
2,635
Chips
0
The fact that you've seen him get caught bluffing numerous times actually makes me like the line. I mean he didn't get caught every time he tried to bluff, so he's obviously doing it quite a bit. And if he tends to raise flush draws, your call is even better.


As to the 8x debate and Sand's point, well he's only going to bluff raise for value with SDV if he's bad right? So I guess you're saying he's not a bad player in your analysis.

I think that is a key point. There are a ton of 1/2 aggro players who raise in terrible or weird spots because they've watched too much TV and think mindless aggression is the key to winning. If he's a solid, thinking player, 8x probably isn't in his range. But if he's an aggro bad player, I can definitely see him raising with 8x hands on the turn since he could be thinking a) clearly nobody has an Ace and b) anyone who hit the turn is still probably behind a pair of 8's. I mean, I see some pretty awful raises at 1/2 on a regular basis.


Again, the fact that a big part of his raising range is flush draws is really important. In fact, I'm not even sure you can fold here because of that. Only slightly more than a fourth of his range needs to be busted flush draws to make the call right (quick math!).
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
I think that is a key point. There are a ton of 1/2 aggro players who raise in terrible or weird spots because they've watched too much TV and think mindless aggression is the key to winning. If he's a solid, thinking player, 8x probably isn't in his range. But if he's an aggro bad player, I can definitely see him raising with 8x hands on the turn since he could be thinking a) clearly nobody has an Ace and b) anyone who hit the turn is still probably behind a pair of 8's. I mean, I see some pretty awful raises at 1/2 on a regular basis.

Interesting. While I agree that many 1/2 players don't really know why they're betting or raising, it's not my experience that even relatively aggro players value-raise 8x here. Very, VERY bad-aggros, yes, maybe. They have no idea why they're betting/raising, they just do because that's how you win pots (in their mind anyway - in the same way that loose-passives think that you win pots by getting to showdown, so they call a ton).

Also keep in mind that I'm going to classify > 95% of the player pool as "bad." I'm not claiming to be an amazing player (yet), but I still find that in terms of decisions I see made at the table, both preflop and postflop, I'm almost always the best player at the table, sometimes with a "ainec." This player was significantly better than the average 1/2 player. He was reading hands to some degree, but was usually on level 2 at best. Thus some bluffs that repped almost nothing. The other villain and I were repping weakness in this spot (we both WERE weak), and the main villain picked up on that. But he wasn't thinking about what he repped - just that everyone else looked weak.

Kind of rambling here, hope that made some amount of sense :)

Edit: Also, for some results-oriented fun, after I called, the other villain snap-folded as expected. The aggro-villain sheepishly plays with his cards and goes, "nice call, I got a 5." Extremely interesting, for a few reasons. First because it means he can't have had a flush draw or straight draw. Second, because it means that either you guys are right and he's just raising because of the weakness, not because of the 5, or he thinks he's actually got the best hand vs. draws a ton. OR, he thinks he's semibluffing with 2pair + trip draws. I didn't actually get to see either of his cards though, since once he said "I've got a 5," I just turned over my hand and watched the jaws drop lol.
 
Mr Sandbag

Mr Sandbag

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Total posts
2,635
Chips
0
That is interesting. I guess it makes sense that if I believed he could have 8x, he could also have 5x. Weird. Nice call!
 
Organize a Home Poker Game
Top